cfm...i think you're right about the coho cwt's...they wand the upstream fish at the seperator...i've blocked those memories out ...and more....but i'll double check anyway....you wrote 'won' not 'wand' so it took me a while to remember...

Bodysurf

I find it pretty hard to believe that 203 adult Springer's just "happened" to die right out of the fish separator along with another 134 jacks! Those fish were carrying coded wire tags and that's why they were sacrificed and given to the food bank. The Cowlitz Salmon Hatchery only needed 1150 adults to meet their egg take needs. As of last week, they have already recovered 4,128 adults at the Salmon Hatchery. You can bet that at lease another 1000 or more fish have already been sport harvested, so that would bring the retuning total number (5,128) to well above the 4900 number that the WDFW had predicted.

It's still early, and I will bet you that the hatchery will get close to another 2000 or more adult before the run is finally over. So you see, WDFW is not really to concern about waking any Springer's that is currently carrying around a wire tag in its head.


Cowlitzfisherman

YOU ARE WHAT YOU WRITE

or

We be doomed to conflict here.

I know a few of the folks on this BB and have met others, and have observed the writing of most of you for the past few years. When I talk with folks I observe a few major differences of opinion, but most seem to be of similar, altho not like, mind. It makes me wonder if the lack of clear writing has more to do with the conflicts that appear in so many threads than actual differences in personal values. And genuine conflicts, when they occur, seem motivated more by intolerance of differing opinions, than the fact that the respective opinions differ.

Not that it matters, but I think it's OK to raise the catch limit within reason when hatchery salmon are abundant. A more useful issue might be why rear and release so many hatchery coho if the end result is an intensive gillnet fishery that wipes out wild coho in the lower Columbia River tributaries?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

I haven't waded through all 46 posts to see if the following points have been raised but I'll put my .02 in here anyway.

The WDFW routinely raises the bag limit on hatchery fish when they can predict far enough in advance that they'll get the hatchery returns they need. As you know, the bag limit for coho the NFL and the Cowlitz have already been increased. I suspect they'll increase it again if the run is anywhere near what they expect. This is just good management.

However, there is a downside. That is, raising the bag limit does not, will not, and won't ever increase the number of fish that you actually catch when you're on the river. In other words, just becuse the bag limit goes up doesn't mean I'll be anymore successful. I can't count how many times I've been fishing on a river where WDFW increased the bag limit but I still got skunked. They could set the bag limit at a million fish a day but if I don't catch any, it doesn't matter.

But raising the bag limit will significantly increase the number of anglers fishing those waters. They're thinking that if WDFW raised the bag limit, there must be more fish, which is probably true. Thus, the hordes of not-very-sophisticated anglers show up, expecting to catch fish. Snagging, trash, fights, etc are the result. The fishing experience is not exactly what most of us seek.

So, raising the bag limit can increase expectations, may not increase the actual number of fish caught, and may significantly decrease the angling experience. In my view, those are good reasons for not doing it.

Grandpa,

You know I couldn't let your last post on this subject go by without commenting on it. I would agree with your statement if we change a couple of phrases. Try this on for size.

"Extreme ideology is a mental disorder. Those who have this disorder need immediate hospitalization. The ideological minority always wants CONTROL over the majority."

I know many conservatives and liberals that take a thoughtful and reasoned approach to most issues, they consider them on their merits and take actions based on their analysis. I know some ideologues on both the right and the left who can not make any determination until they find out how their sponsors/mentors want them to act. Singling out liberals only deals with half the problem.

A side note rant - most people in the US do not understand the difference between being Liberal and being Socialistic. There are deep and fundamental differences. Being the well-traveled fella that I know you to be, I'm sure you understand the differences. However, I have heard the terms used interchangeably enough to know that a lot of folks don't understand the difference.

As always, Grandpa, I like your posts and of course I like you - redneck reactionary that you are.

Im actually as far from liberal as could be.

My dad was a logger and works in a parer mill Im a police Officer, (now how many liberal police Officers do you know?).

Nearly all of my family has been loggers or farmers on the Olympic Pensulia.

I tend to agree with republican veiws on nearly all issues.

I believe we need to have a conservative attitude towards our native fish to ensure these stocks thrive.

As far as hatcheries go I could care less how many of these fish people kill, Kill them all!

The thing that bothers me is when people go overboard and take more fish than they eat, or just take the hens for the eggs.

We need to get away from the mindset of take eveything you can because if you dont someone else will.

There are some major flaws in the fish management of this state and sport fishers ethics over all.

I do understand that most people on this board are not greedy. And even though it dosent show sometimes I do respect there views even though I may not agree with them.

RICK

I feel the same way! There are times when I do show my political bias, but I can not remember a single time in all our difference or debates where I have ever used them when it comes to talking fish or fish management issues with you. If I am wrong, then maybe someone can tell me were I have done so. Yes, when we were debating the "war issues", it seemed like almost everyone took a side. But this is not true when we debate the merits on fish or fish management issues.

To me I don't care if a person is a liberal Democrat or a right wing Republican, when I take issue with a person, it is because we differ about fish issues, not party issues. Hell half of the time I am neither a republican nor a democrat but somewhere in between the two. I guess you could say that most of the time I am an Independent!

When I debate issues about fish, I try to debate those issues by using my knowledge, experience and years of management in fish organizations dealing with both fish and fish management. People should not use "the Party issue" to prove a point one way or another. Personally, I judge people on this board by their knowledge or lack of knowledge on fish and fish management. I too would hope that others would leave the "party" issue out and use their knowledge of fish instead.

Anyway, that how I feel about politics and fish!

Cowlitzfisherman

eddie... As you know, much of this is sick entertainment...Meeting someone face to face makes an argument must more tolerable and reasonable. The internet has a way of bringing out eroneous conclusions and I am certainly guilty of making many. I think you are as wrong as you think I am on some things but we are pretty similar on the fishing issues. We all choose different paths to get to the same basic place. We revere the fish and the sport and try in our own ways to enhance them. I think the problem with a passive and polite debate on the BB is that it often doesn't bring out the opinions as much as a bit of trolling or baiting or whatever you want to call it. And by the way you know I'm not really a redneck hillbilly nor am I a Jerry Falwell supporter..I just don't worship Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter so there you go...Just an old grandpa sitting in my rocking chair thinkin about the good ole days.

cfm....springer's above the hatchery's needs are sent to soma....they put the cwt fish in the ponds to be spawned and the heads taken later...just like with the coho...after they get 'wanded' if they're tagged they throw 'em in the ponds..untagged go upstream..the majority of tagged springer's went in the pond...so most of the cwt fish didn't go to the food bank...typically 90k coho are tagged every year around 1.5% of release #s...interestingly they ended up pretty short on coho last year...so maybe they should be keepinfg more to spawn....not less....i also remember years there where they predicted 2k springers to return and only got a few hundred....still checkin' on the limit stuff....

..i don't think all those springer's were tagged that they gave to somma...

You've right Rich...by you and Rob proclaiming your absolute righteousness on the topic and declaring all other opposing opinions as BS you have deservedly earned the title of hypocrit, pompus and bearer of holier than thou attitude. Congratulations! Wear your crown well!

When I hear people say " Hell, we limited out and were home by noon " It sorta creeps me out. Different strokes for different folks I guess. In Idaho, you can keep so many a year. When there are a lot of fish they will raise the limits and let you buy another tag. I think last year it was 40 fish. Lets say 10 lb avg.. whatcha gonna do with 400 lbs of fish ?? Why worry about dividing up every single fish between the factions. Suppose it would be O.K if there were some left over???

I like that idea of leaving some fish in the rivers. Trouble is the tribes call that "forgone opportunity"....in other words you (sportsman) got your 1% share and chose not to fish anymore so the tribes "take up the slack" for you and toss in the gill nets. I think there is an overall de-emphasis on retaining fish in the sports community but the netting fraternity both Indian and non-indian is pretty much into keeping as many as it can get away with. Anything not caught is "waste" to them.

micropterus


Exactly no MORE money for hatchries.. Thats vastly different than wanting fewer fish and wanting hatcheries to close.

Bodysurf

I do not know who you are getting your information from concerning the Cowlitz Spring chinook and their disposition of coded wire tag fish. Less then 10% of the springers have coded wire tags when they are release. I just got off the phone with WDFW in Vancouver and they have confirmed that all of the 203 adults and the 134 jacks were that were killed had coded wire tags. That is the reason why they were killed. They went to the food bank because they had not been exposed to fungus drugs.

One reason why most of the coded springers are not sent to food bank after being kill or spawned is that they have been "treated" early on with an anti fungus drugs because they are held by their run return timing. They will not send any 'treated" fish to the food banks because it is illegal for them to do so.

The fish that were given to the food bank all had coded wire tags.

You said; "interestingly they ended up pretty short on coho last year...so maybe they should be keeping more to spawn".

You need to ask your source how could that possibly be? They had well over 80,000 adult return to hatchery last year!....short? who's kidding who?

Cowlitzfisherman

HEY Parker, that was what I call having second thoughts!

I saw that quick post that you had just made at 1:45 pm. I don't think that I have ever seen you pull one back so fast before!By 1:50 pm it was gone!



I do agree with what you had said about the politics taking priority over the science when it comes to WDFW policy. Money talks!

Remember the eye is quicker then the hand!


Cowlitzfisherman

cfm..i stand corrected on the food bank springers...and yes i know about the injections to the springers also...i've done one or two...springers are tagged at a higher percentage than the coho though alomost double i think...and they were short of coho ...call they hatchery and ask for release numbers for the 2001 brood year....they didn't even have enough to tag the 90k they needed last year...one pond short....either someone screwed up on egg samples or there was a whole bunch of morts....so even with 80k adult coho returning they came up short....

cfm... actually the injections for springers are of erythromycin to try and stop vertical transmission of bkd(one squirt per 10lbs of fish)..they use a formalin bath on the fish in the ponds for fungus..so no fish from the ponds go to the food bank..treated fish get buried..they used to use malachite green for fungus but it proved to be too nasty...and it stained your hands green for life!..not to mention what it did to invertebrates in the river...
..another reason they may have come up short is because people complain about hatcheries taking too may eggs and not putting enough fish in the river for people to catch and with tighter budgets now there's less money to cover the extra fish...so they have to cut there egg takes closer now ... if they get a disease outbreak or mistake on samples they end up short....no more going for 10+% overage on your egg takes like in the past...