Itlcleo, you want to try that one agian . His popularity is erroding, a lot of people, even congress are starting to ask some pretty hard questions about his reasoning, and motives. In the end if he has not done a much better job of telling us the truth, he will not win in 2004.

I agree, for the most part. Although I know I'm guilty at times when something I've read particularily peeves me, it is much easier to discuss an issue when facts and emotion are kept apart.

With that in mind, here's something that bothers me. It's a known fact that the documentation Bush used concerning Iraq's nuclear program in his "State of the Union" address was forged (and poorly at that). Why then, has he not come out and demanded an investigation into how that information was passed to him? I would think it had to pass through quite a few channels before he would include it into an address to the American people. Or at least he could tell the people he regrets passing along false information. In my opinion, failure to do so makes him look guilty of lieing.

Proving that he lied will be nearly impossible; misled is a more accurate term, I think. But it's not just him. Rumsfield, Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rice are the real culprits here. Bush has done the same thing that Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, and Clinton had done before him. They abused the power of office and the trust of the American people. Nixon and Clinton were impeached for it, and they didn't even send the nation to war which cost the lives of thousands and destruction worth billions of dollars.

Just like Bush I have "gut" feelings, too. And my gut tells me something about Operation Iraq Liberation is terribly wrong.

LtlCleo-- I can't say the majority of Anericans don't get it, but a large number don't. Earlier I posted, "40% of Americans believe we've already found WMD in Iraq. 30% believe that chemicals were used against us in the war. About 50% believe Saddam was responsible for 9/11 attacks," which I'd gathered from various news sources. That shows there are a lot of Americans that "just don't get it."

Curtis (BBVD)-- I sincerely appreciate your patriotic fervor, and I feel your sentiments are well placed. And that is precisely why this issue is so important. If it turns out that the US and UK (the two most powerful and influential governments in the world) misled its own people, and the rest of the world, to invade another nation it will be much harder to gather support when a genuine threat really MAY exist.

Trusting those that have the power to send us to battle is the reason we don't need a draft or conscript service.

Spoken like a true Gentleman SilverHilton!

We need more people like you on this board. Although I have disagreed with some of what you have said in the past, I truly love a good debate and never hold a personal grudge against any one just because we disagree. When it becomes personal, that is a different matter. Debate is healthy as long as people remember that eventually we need to agree to disagree.......

Regards,

MC

So then Harley, why do folks like you (and on the GOP side too) not just admit all around that ALL TOP LEADERS ARE THE SAME????!!!
You made the comment that we could have bombed Hussein because we had info on his where abouts from the Clinton admin...... Hello? Why then didn't Mr. Bill get it done? Or the one about the fact that the Mr. Bill Hill people gave warning that the twin towers were a target....Again, Hello???? They were first hit while Mr. Bill was in office, so NS they were a target. As far as excusing intellegence in the whitehouse, I wont go there. But there was no way to really prepare for what happened on 9/11. It could have just as easily been a train that they commandeered with tanks of anhydrous ammonia and then ran them into the heart of a city, crashed them, and then many, many would die. Also, the left is now whining about "loss of freedom" in this country, but criticize the white house for not doing more to prevent the terror attack.....

We need to quit going head to head due only to party affiliation, and instead start hanging the guilty leaders for wrong doing...WHOEVER AND WHATEVER THEY ARE!! But, alas, I am only dreaming I am sure.
I am an independent, but what I do like about the Fox network is that they will most always have both views presented and then I can decide based on that, unlike most media that will portray one view and I am left to wonder..... Just my $1.49 worth....

MC

Originally, what I'd said was:

In reference to the Towers' attack, the evidence pointed to an imminent attack. It may have been hard to prevent the attack, but from reports I've read there was enough evidence that we should have known something big was about to happen. The blame doesn't necessarily point to the Bush regime, it falls mostly on the CIA and FBI not being able to play together. Their bureaucratic inability to share information with one other needs to be addressed.

The reference to bombing with drones was about bin Laden, not Hussein. The intel was presented in 2000, and in 2001 the drones still had not been outfitted with warheads. Again, this is not necessarily a Bush SNAFU as much as inter-agency squabbling, this time between the CIA and the Pentagon.


I openly admit that I don't completely trust any politician. I firmly believe they will tell you whatever you need to hear to further their own agenda. I listen to every one of them with a bit of skepticism.

I agree whole-heartedly with you on not attacking one another over party lines. I, too, believe we should punish whom ever is responsible for wrong-doing regardless of their political affiliation. And in this case I strongly believe the Bush adminstration has committed some serious wrongs that should be investigated, and subsequently punished if my suspicions are correct.

I just learned the actual reason why Bush decided to invade Iraq, and it has nothing to do with oil or WMDs. This is an excerpt from an Israel newspaper (via a Russian newspaper) reporting on the meeting between Bush, Abbas (Palestinian Prime Minister) and the head of the Hamas concerning the "Roadmap to Peace."
Cool, eh? Evidently, though, the Pope didn't get the memo. If I remember correctly, the Pope was opposed to the war. Seems to me the leader of the Catholic Church would be pretty close to God and would get, at least, a courtesy copy of any instructions He gave to Bush. Pretty amazing, IMHO, that Bush would have a closer relationship with God than the majority of clerics in the entire free world.

Sure hope he can end all that bloodshed in the Middle East soon; I'd hate to see it interfere with his re-election effort, and all.

Funny thing, too, about some of the other guys in history that have used the "God told me to" excuse, most of them were eventually incarcerated... or institutionalized.

GH,

Although I vehemently disagree with Bush on his adventure in Iraq - I would caution you to do some due diligence on this quote. I'm surprised that this has not come out before now and that makes me suspicious as to its authenticity. If it's true, we have a much bigger problem than I thought. Can you post a link?

On another note - I hope everyone has a wonderful and safe 4th of July. It is symbolic of our freedom to be able to have this discussion openly. I love my freedoms and I love my country.

ya right if bush said that it would be all over the news. were did you read that on the internet?

Harley,

Do you hate GOD? Is that why you hate President Bush so much because he says he's a man of GOD?

This has nothing to do with hating God. That is the problem. The Whitehouse has taken great pains to say this war has nothing to do with religion. And just about everytime Pres Bush opens his mouth he seems to contradict that.

And now he is telling the Iraqi people to "Bring em on".

I have to tell you sometimes I really wonder how smart he is. Even our military is a little put out with that remark.

P.S, I really don't think he said God made me do it. <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" />

Here's the link to the article. Russian Article It's the second instance I've seen of that quote, but the first I'd seen a complete article reference it. If it was just the Russian paper I'd be very skeptical of it, but referencing the Israeli paper lends more credence, I think. But then, again, who knows in today's world of media spin.

<Edit>I searched the Isreal paper (Haaretz) and couldn't find anything. So, it could be BS. But it is rather entertaining, none the less.

<Edit II> Here's another link to the same quote. Toronto Star


Maguana, I am so intune with God you wouldn't understand. Besides, my affiliation with a supreme being is not the issue here. Someone possibly letting the little voices in his head dictate policy is the issue. Try to stay focused.

I think we need to see if we can set a BB record here for length of a post..... First off,
Huh!??
Oh, those Israeli's are such honest people. That is why they have disclosed and admitted to having Nukes (had em since the 50's), and that they have "The Sampson Option" as one of their dictates. I think I'll wretch now.
Secondly, I doubt GW would ever say that to a person that would quote it in a paper.... As far as the comment that it is scary a "world leader" would listen to little voices and say "God told me to do it", let's talk about the Pope for one. He has a lot more hold on the world than GW, and he says all the time that God told him to do it, or say it. Why, he even told the Mexican people on his last trip there (You know, the country so over-populated that they cant feed all their own) that God did not want them to use birth control. Now THAT is a scary thing for someone of such power to say. Makes me wonder what kind of common sense God would make a comment like that, when children are starving because their parents have 11 of them.......... Keep it going, this is getting fun....

MC :p

Master Caster, It is clear that you know nothing about the teachings of the Catholic religion.

You are just like the people you are trying to discredit, twisting a statement around so it will fit your point of view.

The POPE nevers says that God told him to do or say anything. I am a CAtholic and more than a bet on a historian and I can tell you that has not happened.

You know in all the time I have been on this board I have yet to attack anyone, till now.

This will be my last post on this, As there seems to be just a few here that don't know their arse from a hole in the ground on this subject.

BW, I apologize since it is apparent I insulted you. That was not the intent. I also was raised Catholic, and I assure all readers that the belief in religeous sects, including the Catholics, Mormons, etc. believe that their leaders do get "divine inspiration" directly from God. This you cannot deny, and it is tantamount to "God told me so". I was trying to make the point that if a religeous leader makes that statement, or infers it, the majority do not think twice. If a layperson or official makes that kind of statement, we automatically assume they must be nuts...... I watched the Pontif's mass speech in Mexico, and he did state that God did not want his followers to use birth control (not a word for word quote) which I thought was irresponsible to say, since poverty reigns supreme in that country due to the family size/income ratio....... Again, I did not mean to offend, it is just what I feel and things I observe......

MC

If you can admit that Al Gore never said "I invented the internet", I will admit the President was misquoted. However, the media will continue to steamroll a story, true or not.

MC; I'm with you on the birth control and Catholicism issue. Doesn't make much sense, much like the current issue of preaching abstinence to the Africans. Yeah, like that'll work.

However, the Pope doesn't command a nuclear-equipped military, so the guidance he begets from prayer is a little more benign.

When I mentioned the Israel paper lending credence to Bush's quote, that was merely in a relative way. Given an Israel paper versus a Palestinian paper or Al-Jazheer, my bet would go with the Israeli paper.

More than likely, Bush was mis-quoted, or it lost its original context through translation. Sadly that doesn't really matter. Those in the Middle East will read it, believe it, and the damage is done.

Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfield all have a problem with speaking before thinking. But I guess Rove can't be everywhere at once.

I'm thinking we can get 8 pages out of this.

Good post Harley, couldn't agree more with you (big deal right.. LOL)
The points you make are very good. The AlJazeera thing really drives my point home. No matter what religeon (some worse than others), people follow so blindly and believe that all their clerics say is straight from God's will...... Why do you think that religeous leaders refer to their believers as "their flock"..... Baa Baaahhhh...

MC

After fishing for over a week and not seeing a newspaper or a news program on tv and not reading anything on the internet I feel quite content. A large group of people got together for a week at Neah Bay and we didn't bring up politics once. Isn't that great! This long , overworked thread only illustrates that political viewpoints are set in stone and one side can only taunt the other side and criticize the other side but never change the minds of the other side. One side gloats over their set of "facts" while the other side presents its own "facts" that prove the opposite is true.

After being away doing what I love most, fishing with friends, and coming back and scanning this thread I can only conclude that it is a stupendous waste of time.

MC I also must apologize. My wife had just gotten burned by some fireworks and I was not in the best of moods. But I stll should not have made the remark I did. I am sorry about that.

I think I better stick to fishing posts.

Accepted, as I hope mine was. That attitude (being able to apologize) is what separates men from idiots....... Grandpa, I agree that this thread has gone on a long time, but when people can talk and agree to disagree, apologize when necessary (such as the gentleman above did), and LISTEN at the very least to all involved, then discussions such as this can be very productive and rewarding. I now feel that although BW and I may not agree on all points, that I would be happy to share a cold one and a day of fishing with him..... And probably be able to call him friend. How can that be a negative thing??

Hats off to you BW.......

MC