OLYMPIA – Three Cowlitz County fishing guides are facing criminal charges and forfeiture of their boats after taking undercover officers from the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) on a Columbia River fishing trip without the proper licenses.



The U.S. Coast Guard, which took part in the sting operation, is also investigation the three men for multiple safety violations, ranging from a lack of life jackets for passengers to, in one case, no of documentation of required drug tests. Names of the three men are being withheld until formal charges are filed in South District Court in Pacific County.



Capt. Mike Cenci, who leads WDFW’s marine enforcement division, said the three men were arrested Aug. 19 in the town of Chinook when they could not produce valid charter boat licenses after guiding a fishing trip to the popular “Buoy 10” fishing area at the mouth of the Columbia River. Although all three men are licensed fishing guides, only licensed charter boats can take paying customers salmon fishing below the Longview Bridge.



“There’s a big difference between a fishing guide license and a charter boat license, and these guys ought to know that,” Cenci said.



The primary difference between the two types of licenses is that the total number of charter boat licenses in Washington state has been capped since 1977 under a limited-entry law to protect against overfishing, Cenci said. Existing charter licenses can, however, be transferred, often fetching tens of thousands of dollars on the open market, and require a yearly renewal fee of $480 for state residents.



By contrast, there is no limitation on professional guide licenses, which can be purchased by state residents for $150 per year.



Under state law, conducting an illegal charter boat operation is a gross misdemeanor, with a maximum penalty of a year in jail and a $5,000 fine. At the time the three men were arrested, WDFW seized their boats – valued at $25,000 to $40,000 – and has since began forfeiture proceedings, Cenci said.



WDFW enforcement officers are currently examining logbooks from the boats for possible evidence of other illegal charter trips, which could result in additional charges, Cenci said.



“We’ve been watching these guys for a while,” said Cenci, noting that the arrests followed weeks of surveillance by members of WDFW’s Statewide Investigations Unit. “Operating a charter service without a valid license is a serious crime, and people should know that we’re taking sure action.”

--------------------

IT'S ABOUT TIME!

Ok, I'll bite.

Besides the safety violations, why should I care if guides don't have a charter license at Buoy 10? Is the point that only charter license holders are safe?

There at TONS of guides with clients fishing below the Astoria bridge which is much further down river than the Longview bridge. I had not heard this charter boat law. When I stay at the Red Lion in Astoria there are many small sleds that are obviously guide boats. It must either be legal in Oregon or there isn't much enforcement.

Jimh,

The reason is a huge one- protect over-fishing.
Think about this... every licensed guide fishing the Columbia below the Longview bridge or even the Sound for that matter!

There are less than 180 charter license in the state. Just so happens I am looking for just one!

I kwon that I will be stepping on a few guides toes here when I make this post, but that's nothing new for me to do!

What a bunch of hog wash!!

How many times do we hear that there is not enough enforcement out there to protect our fish, and especially the wild ones! Now you got a bunch of enforcements guys out there busting some poor ass guides who are just trying to make a living doing what they know best how to do.

Cenci says; That's hog wash! What's the difference between a guy who is on the "river" who operates a illegal guide service, or takes money for taking people out, then the guy who operating a "Charter Service" illegally?

Since I was a state licensed guide for over ten years, I think that I have a right to question this kind of crap! Cenci goes on to say; What a crock of hog poop! "Capped" so that a few stinking guys can have a monopoly!

I love it when he says; How does limiting the amount of "charter boats licenses" protect against over fishing? What difference does it make if 9 guys pay a ridiculous price to go out on a "charter boat" to catch there allowed quota of fish then it would, if they used three private boats instead with three guys each to catch their allowed quotas or limit?

Regardless of how many charter boats are fishing, once the "quota" has been reached, they close it down anyway, so can someone please explain to me how charter boats protect against over fishing?

These archaic laws are just as big of a scam as the commercial fishing licenses scams were, and still are. The ONLY reason that these stupid laws were ever passed in the first place was because a few guys got there money together and lobbied their legislatures to monopolize a fishing industry.

I say let the guys who want to be guides purchase the appropriate state licenses and take the proper coast guard training classes and get certified. Then let them go fish wherever they choose to fish!

That way, WDFW enforcement can hit the rivers and do there jobs. This "special charter" license should be removed from the books because the need for justifying it no longer exits in this day and age. It's noting but a scam for the few guys who are holding everyone else at ransom for money to buy them out!!

It's all about money, and nothing else! What the heck is the difference when the quota of catchable fish has been reached.... its all over. So why allow one limited elite group of fishermen to have a monopoly on our resourse? The good old days are gone forever and so should those limited charter boat licenses.

Cowlitzfisherman

Wrong or right it is the law. Just because someone does not agree with the law does not give them the right to break the law. I'm sure there's people out there that think that snagging should be legal also.

I personally do not want to take a guided/chartered trip with a guide or a charter that breaks the law. If you don't agree with it the best course of action would be to work towards getting the law changed.

I agree with having a cap on the number of charter boat license's, in fact I would even support having a cap on Guide license's.

I do not think that just anyone should be able to go out and buy a $150 a year guide license, then start taking people across the B10 bar or any other Navigable waters. These water can be very dangerous and I want to know that my guide/charter is qualified.

"These water can be very dangerous and I want to know that my guide/charter is qualified."

Granted, but it seems that charter boats capsize in the ocean, too. In addition, people capsize on smaller rivers as well. Going out in the ocean or on a fast flowing river are both dangerous. Restricting one body of water to charter only doesn't make sense to me.

so to fish any saltwater you need a charter license? does that include the sound?

Bruce

You say ;

That is exactly why I said. If they take the same coast guard training and get certified, why would they have to get a "charter license" to fish in the ocean?

Well unless the coast guard as change, the last I was aware, the "special coast guard license" was strictly a paper work test to get your license. Maybe that has changed now, but that's the way it used to be. Does that make you feel safer? The only big difference that I can see if charter licenses are just given out to a special few and are limited!

If memory serves me correct, the last couple of people who died in boating accidents going over the bars were both accidents that involved fishing guides who were holding either a 6 pack or charter boats licenses.

19 years ago, I was a licensed commercial fisherman in California and we were also running 50 to 75 miles outside. Some "crazy" dangerous things happen when I was doing that for 15 years, but I can truly say that just as many "crazy" dangerous things had happen in my 10 years of guiding on rivers!

What I have learned in those 25 plus years of commerical boating is; no matter what licenses you may have, be it in fresh or salt water….$hit just happens when you're on the water!

And yes, I agree that this archaic law needs to be changed! If I was still guiding, I would be in there face until it was changed! If the guys that got nailed did not have their coast guard training, then they should get nailed. But if they have the same training as the Charter Boat guys do, then it's all a bunch of bureaucratic bull $hit in my opinion to take their boats away!

That's just like saying that its ok to take away your car because you got a speeding ticket or ran a red light! It's all a bunch BS, and you know that it was the "charter boys" who put the screws to these guides. And it was all done in the name of money…not safety!

Where in the hell are we heading?

Cowlitzfisherman

If you dont like the law, work to change it. But don't rant about enforcing the law.

This law only applies to enrty on the Washington side. If you are an Oregon Guide you can launch in Oregon and DO NOT need a charters license to fish those waters. about 90 % of the Oregon guides only have the "6 pack inland Coastal waters License." Which allows them the Columbia River Upstream of 10.

It seems we don't have more imortant crimes to get, than a guide trying to make a buck.I believe He can pay 750$ and get his Oregon guides lic. and solve the whole deal.

USCG lic are good for more than one state.

Maybe we should just ignore these criminals in their unlicensed and uninspected boats who are doing nothing more than endangering the welfare of their clients for some quick cash at the expense of our resources and go back to whining about the sneeky-assed floss-line snaggers?

BTW: Here's an interesting legality...

RCW 77.70.050
Reciprocal agreements -- Annual operating permits -- Education and enforcement programs.

(1) The department may enter into reciprocal agreements with other states concerning the operation and inspection of charter boats from those states that operate on the waters of the state of Washington. Reciprocity shall be granted only if a state can establish to the satisfaction of the department that their laws and standards concerning charter boats meet or exceed the laws and rules of the state of Washington. A charter boat that operates on state waters under a reciprocal agreement pursuant to this section shall obtain an annual operating permit from the department for a fee for each year the charter boat does business on the waters of the state of Washington. The department shall deposit the fees from annual operating permits issued pursuant to this section in the industrial insurance trust funds.

(2) The department shall develop an education and enforcement program designed to eliminate the operation of charter boats that have not been inspected and certified as required by this chapter, and shall provide the public with information regarding the safety features and requirements necessary for the lawful operation of charter boats.

Aren't bureaucrats wonderful?

"It's the law!" "It's the law!" "It's the law!" :
Well it's also against the law for the people to hire a guide that is not property licensed! You can be cited for criminal assistance in the third degree! Negligence is no excuse to break the law, or help in the process of breaking the law.

When you hire a guide, you are assisting him by payment for a service. If you "knowingly hire a person" who you know is not legally licensed, then you too should be charged under RCW 9A.76.090 Rendering criminal assistance in the third degree.
(1) A person is guilty of rendering criminal assistance in the third degree if he renders criminal assistance to a person who has committed a gross misdemeanor or misdemeanor.
(2) Rendering criminal assistance in the third degree is a misdemeanor.

So why didn't those WDFW enforcement officers nail some of these guys customers too?

No, that would really be bad PR and they know better then to do that. Unless the guides lies and tells them that he has all the correct licenses, they are just as guilty as he is, and should also be cited for rendering criminal assistance and have there day in court too. Everyone knows that guides are required by law to have their appropriate guide stickers posted in plain sight so that the officers can clearly see who is or is not guiding…right?

So if you don't see a "Charter license" or a non resident Oregon "6 pack inland Coastal waters License." posted in plain sight, on the guides boat, chances are the guide doesn't have one…right? So shouldn't the client be responsible because he is paying this guy to commit a "gross misdemeanor" (the law is the law).

Lots of people hire these guys because they know they are not licensed and most of them are far cheaper then the "charter licensed" boys are. I can just hear you screaming right now!! The ball bounces both ways, but enforcement isn't going to enforce that part of the law, and you know it. But remember, the "law is the law" and if the client doesn't like it, he should work on changing it!

OK, lets hears those rebuttals now….but remember, the law is the law!!

PS; Plunker; who do you think might have been responsible for pushing RCW 77.70.050 thought? Do you kind of think it just might have been those good old charters boys who have all that "caring" interest for us fishermen?


Cowlitzfisherman

I would be willing to bet that some of the intent here is safety. Last year 4 people died on the bar near Buoy 10 just on a weekend that I was there. I am a very experienced skipper and water safety instructor with CPR and first aid training and I was in the soup out there and saw the dangers first hand. A less experienced skipper in a smaller boat could kill himself and his customers. Witness the experienced guide who killed half his passengers crossing the bar out of Tillamook this year. The water there is very dangerous and kills lots of people. Part of the charter licensing is a much more extensive training and certification program. That alone doesn't make a safe skipper but in this day and age of lawsuits and libilities gone wild I think government errs on the safe side.

OK grandpa

I am at a lost here! Maybe I am just outdated, so walk me along if you will.
You said;

Maybe you are right, but what else do they do? And if that was the case, how can they just "sell" their licenses to who ever pays the price?

Not trying to hammer on you, I am just trying to figure out what the laws are now for these "special charters" licenses.

Besides being responsible for "carrying more special" gear for the amount of people that some carry, what special training are they required to take? All guides are required to take and have CPR and First Aid training, so does anyone really know what is so special?

Cowlitzfisherman

Let me go one step further here, I have been the owner of a Charter License, I used to run a 6 pack out of Ray's Boathouse - long story, another time. However, the point I want to make is that I believe Fisheries looks at Charter Boat fishing as part of the Commercial allocation because of the old split between Dept. of Fisheries and Dept. of Game. Since salmon are a "food fish", charter licenses have been used to limit the entry into the "commercial fishing industry". This really does look like a carryover from the time when the Depts. were seperate.

Now, I will tell you that the only way I made any money as a charter boat owner was when I sold my 6 pack license. Since the State is not issuing any more, those that own one get to sell at a premium price.

The law is clear, CR downstream of Longview Bridge requires a charter license. I may disagree but that is the law. CFM, once again, if you disagree with the law please try to change it but don't deride those who support it.

Eddie

It's not that "I" disagree with the law!!

It's just a bunch of bull $hit, and you know it! You got to screw the guy that you sold YOUR license to, so it's OK, to screw everyone else down the pecking order! It goes on and on and on!!

You guys really kill me with your logic!!

It's the same old bull $hit time after time! But people are becoming aware and are now starting to see the light. I can not make the changes by myself, but I CAN help them think about it, and get them to also ask the hard questions too.

Like why are we where we are now…. DA!!

I truly believe that it will lead them to better solution than what we now have (which is nothing).

These laws are so full of crap that even the most stupid person can now see how screwed up some of our fish and game laws are. Many of these age old laws were simply made to protect private interests and not the fish or game. The truth will prevail, and it will work itself out. But it takes people who have the gonads to stay with it!

eddie, you say: eddie that is exactly what I am doing right now, and right here… One step at a time!!

Cowlitzfisherman

CFM - I think that it is a significant leap of logic (if not faith) to say that I "got to screw the guy that you sold YOUR license to". How did I screw anybody? I sold my license at the market value, no more, no less. Now, you may vehemently disagree with the market forces that set the price but I take personal offense at your contention that I screwed someone. It would be like you going to the local gas station and making an accusation of bad morals, ethics, and business practice to the owner because of the obscene price of gas today. Again, you and I may agree that the market forces that set the price are immoral, unethical, and the result of price gouging. However, if you exercise your right to accuse, understand that the accused may take offense.

In regards to the charter requirements that coincide with the WDFW charter licenses, I can speak from personal experience that I had to hire a Coast Guard Certified Captain to run my boat. I investigated what it would take to get that license in my name and discovered (this was 1991) that I could do it if I worked no other jobs. It is (was?) a rigorous process that involved 100's of hours of operation under the supervision of a CG licensed Captain. Does that CG certificate mean something and can we as users of the resource put value on it? That may be the debate especially when compared to the requirement(s) that a river guide attains. My point is the law is clear, downstream of the Longview bridge requires a charter license and by extension requires the Coast Guard certification. If you feel the law is wrong I salute your efforts to change it. Once again however, I would remind you that the way you deliver your message is important too. And when you question the ethics, morals, and business practices of someone you do not know it becomes difficult to gain their support.

the guides had to know the law i know that some guides were ticketed at cathlement for same thing during springer season. and a guy was ticketed in the forks area for guiding without a license

Aunty...Controversy seems to have left this board to some extent....What is Ramon up to? Maybe he'll come back and tells us what he thinks. WT has been supiciously quiet while they scrutinize the hatcheries they are trying to close. I wonder what WT thinks about guides??? and not fly fishing guides on the private ranches. Real guides.

Eddie: Selling a charter license is no crime. Allowing them to be sold as a commodity is probably ill advised but the idea of keeping a lid on the numbers is a good idea in my book. The idea that Washington has one law and Oregon contradicts it on the same piece of water is goofy. The Oregon side of the Columbia stretches a long ways across at the famous fishing grounds below the Astoria bridge and having that side heavily populated with "guides" while the smaller Washington side prevents the same is nuts. Especially since those Oregon "guides" get to fish on the Washington side under all the other reciprocal rules.

CFM: The coast guard certification process is a rigorous one. I have a friend who has a charter license that he rarely uses and he spent months of heavy studying and testing to get the CG certificate. I say this is the only way to fly for those boats venturing out in dangerous waters with paying customers aboard. Like I said before, there are many families mourning their lost relatives due to accidental drownings at sea in our area. Anything to help the safety of those paying customers is right by me and is not just bureaucratic BS.