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#266638 - 05/12/04 10:48 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: U.S. Army
Elvis, I'm afraid you're quite alone in your assessment and evaluation of the situation. Even to the neocons, I believe.

Of course, when dumbya runs out of reasons for the invasion, he just may latch onto yours and you can feel some vindication then.
_________________________
Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

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#266639 - 05/13/04 11:19 AM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
Harley,

If Bush came out and told the truth of what we really face in respect to our Islamic foes he would essentially start a global conflict. It would be easier to lauch massive strikes just before he said it. We do not have the military manpower or a population with the stomach for such a pronouncement. So until we toughen up a bit we just have to hear the sanitized version. "Islam is not our enemy" while we move the pieces to contain and control that not offically recognized enemy. Tiem will bear me out on this one I promise.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#266640 - 05/13/04 12:43 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
NUKE IRAN!!!
_________________________
"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

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#266641 - 05/13/04 01:47 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
Better yet we can allow the Isrealis to go in and whack anyone in Iran,Syria etc that has supported terrorism for a little payback. Then we just keep doing it until they "get their minds right"
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#266642 - 05/13/04 03:43 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: U.S. Army
And who's gonna hold Israel accountable for its terrorism?
_________________________
Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

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#266643 - 05/13/04 04:27 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
Comrade Harley,

Look up terrorism in the dictionary. It's not terrorism to defend yourself.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#266644 - 05/13/04 05:12 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Bend, WA
Try this:

Count the civilian women and children killed by terrorist acts against Israelies.

Total = ?

Now count the civilian women and children kiled by "terrorist" acts against Palistinians.

Total = ?

Note - only count women and children - not terrorist \ military personnel.

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#266646 - 05/13/04 05:34 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
AM,

Well since the perps of 911 were Saudi and lebanese would you have support invading them? It is very very very clear we are in a different time and place Re: national security. Because of that all the answers are not as clear as they may have been in the past. You have less proof that Iraq was not a direct threat to the US than we have that they were by the actions of Sadam. PS the Iraqi people are responsible for the S*&Thole their country became and bear full resposibility for Sadam. I know thats not PC in a area of the world that thrives on victimization as a defense.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#266647 - 05/13/04 05:47 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Bend, WA
Anyone remember this speach immediately following 9/11:

Cutting just a few sections....

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE PRESIDENT: I've asked the highest levels of our government to come to discuss the current tragedy that has so deeply affected our nation. Our country mourns for the loss of life and for those whose lives have been so deeply affected by this despicable act of terror.
I am going to describe to our leadership what I saw: the wreckage of New York City, the signs of the first battle of war.
We're going to meet and deliberate and discuss - but there's no question about it, this act will not stand; we will find those who did it; we will smoke them out of their holes; we will get them running and we'll bring them to justice. We will not only deal with those who dare attack America, we will deal with those who harbor them and feed them and house them.
Make no mistake about it: underneath our tears is the strong determination of America to win this war. And we will win it.
I'm going to ask the Secretary of State to say a few things, and then the Attorney General.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you, Mr. President. I might just say that I'm very pleased with the response we've been getting from the international community. I think every civilized nation in the world recognizes that this was an assault not just against the United States, but against civilization.
We should also take note, it's not just Americans who lost lives in the World Trade Center - dozens of countries lost lives and they realize that this was an attack against them, as well.
We are receiving expressions of support from around the world - and not just rhetorical support, but real support for whatever may lay ahead in this campaign that is ahead of us to win the war that the President has spoken of.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Q Sir, what do you say to Americans who are worried that the longer it takes to retaliate, the more chance the perpetrators have to escape and hide and just escape justice?
THE PRESIDENT: They will try to hide, they will try to avoid the United States and our allies - but we're not going to let them. They run to the hills; they find holes to get in. And we will do whatever it takes to smoke them out and get them running, and we'll get them.
Listen, this is a great nation; we're a kind people. None of us could have envisioned the barbaric acts of these terrorists. But they have stirred up the might of the American people, and we're going to get them, no matter what it takes.
++++++++++++++++++++++++

In my radio address today I explained to the American people that this effort may require patience. But we're going to -
Q How long -
THE PRESIDENT: As long as it takes. And it's not just one person. We're talking about those who fed them, those who house them, those who harbor terrorists will be held accountable for this action.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Q How long do you envision -
THE PRESIDENT: The definition is whatever it takes.

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#266648 - 05/13/04 05:49 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Bend, WA
Here's some further info I "cut and stole":

David Kay's report said we hadn't found "stockpiles" of WMDs in Iraq, but we have found:

chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval;

reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist);

new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin;

a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans;

long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations (news - web sites) resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs;

documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea (news - web sites);

facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.

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#266649 - 05/13/04 05:51 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Bend, WA
Did this admin lie about WMDs? If so, look who else did too:

(cut and stole this too)

+++++++++++++++++++++++


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998-Truth!
This was a quote from President Clinton during a presentation at the Pentagon defending a decision to conduct military strikes against Iraq.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998-Truth!
Bill Clinton went to the Pentagon on this occasion to be briefed by top military officials about Iraq and weapons of mass destruction.
His remarks followed that briefing.

"Iraq is a long way from USA but, what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998-Truth!
This is a quote from Albright during an appearance at Ohio State University by Albright, who was Secretary of State for Bill Clinton.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998-Truth!
This was at the same Ohio State University appearance as Madeline Albright.
"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.Constitution and Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate,
air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998-Truth!
According to the U.S. Senate website, the text of this letter was signed by several Senators, both Democrat and Republican, including Senator John McCain and Joseph Lieberman.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998-Truth!
The text of this statement by Nancy Pelosi is posted on her congressional website.

"Hussein has .. chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999-Truth!
This was from an appearance Albright made in Chicago.
She was addressing the embargo of Iraq that was in effect at the time and criticism that it may have prevented needed medical supplies from getting into the country. Albright said, "There has never been an embargo against food and medicine. It's just that Hussein has just not chosen to spend his money on that. Instead, he has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction, and palaces for his cronies."

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs
continue a pace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001Truth!
The only letter with this quote from December 5, 2001 that we could find did not include the participation of Senator Bob Graham, but it was signed nine other senators including Democrat Joe Lieberman.
It urged President Bush to take quicker action against Iraq.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002-Truth!
These were remarks from Senator Levin to a Senate committee on that date.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002-Truth!
This and the quote below was part of prepared remarks for a speech in San Francisco to The Commonwealth Club.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002-Truth!

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002-Truth!
Part of a speech he gave at Johns Hopkins.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998.
We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities.
Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002-Truth!
On the floor of the Senate during debate over the resolution that would authorize using force against Iraq.
He was urging caution about going to war and commented that even though there was confidence about the weapons in Iraq, there had not been the need to take military action for a number of years and he asked why there would be the need at that point.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002-Truth!
Senator Kerry's comments were made to the Senate as part of the same debate over the resolution to use force against Saddam Hussein.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated
the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002-Truth!
Senator Rockefeller's statements were a part of the debate over using force against Saddam Hussein.

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his
chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002-Truth!
Senator Waxman's contribution to the Senate debate over going to war.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002-Truth!
Senator Clinton acknowledged the threat of Saddam Hussein but said she did not feel that using force at that time was a good option.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime He presents a
particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction
So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan.23.2003-Truth!
In a speech to Georgetown University.

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#266650 - 05/13/04 05:53 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Bend, WA
Here's another cut and steal:

++++++++++++++++++

Finally, a Clinton-appointed federal judge, U.S. District Court judge Harold Baer, has made a legal finding that Iraq was behind the 9-11 attacks -- a ruling upheld by the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals last October. When some judge discovers a right to gay marriage in a 200-year-old document written by John Adams, Americans are forced to treat the decision like the God-given truth. But when a federal judge issues a decision concluding that Iraq was behind the 9-11 attacks, it is a "misperception" being foisted on the nation...

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#266651 - 05/13/04 05:56 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Bend, WA
One more quote I just read on another site:

"and lets not forget bin ladens go-to guy who is apparently right in Iraq, killing americans gleefully on camera.. thats not an accident. "

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#266652 - 05/13/04 05:58 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
SHHHHHHHHHHH! no sense ruining a perfectly good fantasy.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#266654 - 05/13/04 06:03 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
Aunty,

Shame on you! A complete lack of logic and an emotional respose. I expect better of you.

The Canada Mexico thing was way out there BTW.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#266657 - 05/13/04 06:21 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Bend, WA
AM - you may have missed my posts since a new page was started. Go back and take a look. Then let us know specifically what questions\issues you still have.

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#266658 - 05/13/04 06:31 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Bend, WA
Your still missing the big picture here...

Iraq\Sadam used WMDs on hundreds of thousands of his own citizens.

Iraq\Sadam supported and harbored terrorists.

Iraq\Sadam and the terrorist groups he has harbored and supported have been trying to aquire nuclear devices and other WMD related things from N.Korea and other places.

Nearly everyone in the world considered Iraq a threat and an aggressor.

It wasn't until the US actually took action that people\leaders\countries flip flopped.

We may yet find solid evidence (there are some indicators \leads being investigated at this point) of payoffs from Sadam to European nations like France and UN members and Inspectors - including money involved in the so called "food for oil" program.

Ect ect...

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#266659 - 05/13/04 06:43 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
AM,

This says it all about emotionalism "Not to mention I am still pissed about the hatchery/wild designation." Nothing been inked and the process has hardly started to run but everyone on the otherside is guilty. Sounds familiar? Do as I say but not as I do?

The libs hate this kind of linal reasoning but what the heck here goes. if you do not belive in doing anything with out provocation or preemptively then why eat healty,Exercise, get vaccinations, have insurance ,put locks on your doors etc. All these things should require proof by action that they are needed. It seems that we require two separarte sets of standards of proof to take action in our lives. One for them and one for me. Please show me how I am wrong.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#266662 - 05/13/04 06:56 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 15207
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Buying auto insurance and eating healthy is the same as going to war.


Stop.......stop........I can't take it.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#266663 - 05/13/04 06:58 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
All Pre-emptive action Dan .
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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