#269837 - 08/06/04 01:08 AM
Re: Marriage
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Carcass
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2433
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
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BBVD, If practical matters were the only things that drove people to get married, married people would comprise even less a percentage of the population than they do now. Some folks really do want to proclaim their love and undying devotion - in our society we call that marriage.
Times change and morals change. Remember that 150 years ago, freedom had a totally different meaning for a black man as opposed to a white man.
I'm not certain where I stand on the issue of gay marriage. I know that I react badly when I perceive discrimination and I do see discrimination against homosexuals. I do not see how gay marriage is a slap in the face to any religion nor do I see it doing irrepairable harm to the institution. At the same time, I am concerned that a large number of gay activists seem to be in this fight based on ideology only. Tough choices.
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"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"
R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
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#269839 - 08/06/04 02:27 AM
Re: Marriage
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Carcass
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
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Do you know what else it says in Leviticus BVD's?
Where shall we start.....
How about 20:13:
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Gays? It says kill them.
How else does the guiding hand of Leviticus suggest we live our lives? How about this gem, 20:10:
And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Again, adulterers?.....kill them.
More, this time from Deuteronomy 21:18:
"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid."
Lousy son? Kill him.
Now....what do YOU suggest the punishment for adultery should be? Does it differ from the Bible?
You aren't seriously suggesting we live by five thousand year old laws are you because I've got some doosies from around the same time period.
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"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101
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#269841 - 08/06/04 02:47 AM
Re: Marriage
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Carcass
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
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aw grampys widdle Bible makes him vewy mad. How typical of you to ignore the perfectly valid questions I raise because answering them would 'foil' YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT ON THIS ISSUE. Should we kill homosexuals, adulterers and drunks? The Bible says.....
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"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101
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#269842 - 08/06/04 11:09 AM
Re: Marriage
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Spawner
Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 558
Loc: Port Townend, WA
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Personally, I think the proposal to make gay marriages legal is a conspiracy of divorce lawyers...
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#269844 - 08/06/04 01:44 PM
Re: Marriage
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1557
Loc: Third stone from the sun
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Originally posted by stlhdh2o:
YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT ON THIS ISSUE.
Should we kill homosexuals, adulterers and drunks? The Bible says..... [/QB] ------------------------------------------------------------ stlhdh20, If you are now intersested in studying and following the Bible (a book containing the old and new testiments)---that is GREAT! Google 'ya later
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"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid
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#269845 - 08/07/04 02:04 AM
Re: Marriage
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Carcass
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
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Look bible boy...if BVD's is going to use the old testament as the basis for his hatred then I am going to use the old testament to show how idiotic that hatred is.
Note:
You could have made the same statement without sounding like a demeaning *sshole. If you value this board and interacting with me in any way I suggest you start coming at me from a different angle or we just aren't going to get along in here. If you want an answer from me, start being less of a demeaning ass when we are discussing things......mmmmk? In exchange I might return the favor.
I'm not an EXPERT on the Bible but I studied it closely for 15 years, have completely read it twice, the last time about theree years ago. In hindsight, I'd say I've studied it more than the average christian. So, by assuning that I am merely a Bible googler you've stepped too far out on the limb again and shown yourself to be piously self-reightous. Feel good?
I've studied the Bible specifically to defend it from being misused by people like you. I'm sure we can exchange gems of homophobic wisdom from the new testament as easily as we have the old, I'm just too tired to give it my full attention right now.
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"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101
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#269846 - 08/07/04 02:19 AM
Re: Marriage
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 1060
Loc: north sound
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Originally posted by grandpa: One man having anal sex with another man is a beautiful thing isn't it? maybe those stone age people had the right idea? Not something I want to see. As long as it's behind closed doors then I don't see it, so who cares? If you want to stop people from getting married just because you don't like the idea of them in the sack together, then why stop with gays? Add fat people and old people to the list. I don't want to see them do it either. Hell, throw hairy people on the list too.
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#269847 - 08/09/04 01:37 PM
Re: Marriage
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Bend, WA
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BBVD is asking a legitimate question. It has nothing to do with hatred as far as I can tell. H2o, do you know him personally and know his agenda aside from his honest (and perhaps a little naive) question??
The question and point made suggest that marriage is essentially a religious institution. The purpose is many fold including forming a strong family unit that is the cornerstone of society and the families within.
Overtime it became clear to societies around the world that aside from the religious aspects, stable marriages and families made for stable communities, economies, and countries.
Clearly marriage is not immune from attack and as the 'lawyer jokes' in this thread indicate, we continue to see the institution lose ground in our society - even in the lives of the religious people who generally feel the strongest about it.
In the end, marriage is not just about 'love'. It is not just about children or families. It is not just about social, legal, or monetary privilege\status. It is about all these things and more. At the core, for those belonging in some way to the Jewish, Christian, and other groups whose religion has helped shape and define (and created) marriage as we know it, it is a sacred and very personal covenant between them and God.
I think the idea that gays somehow need marriage to be equal or happier is complete non-sense.
I think most people who feel strongly about man + woman marriage would quickly choose to give up some of the government\healthcare\taxes\etc 'privileges' that come with being married if that is what it takes to keep the traditional definition of marriage in tact. Marriage should be recognized by churches, families, society\culture - and not government.
Government should be in the business (maybe) of recognizing civil unions - as a way to promote and reward stable families and relationships that are beneficial to our economy, security, etc.
Therefore, if a certain church on capital hill decides to marry a same sex couple, brother and sister, cousins, etc - it is up to that church to make the call. It is up to society and individuals there in to decide how legitimate they think that marriage is.
Most churches will choose support only man + woman marriages based on how they feel their religion\God has created\defined the institution. But this is what freedom of religion is all about - right?
In either case, the gay couple married on Capitol Hill or the hetero couple married in Forks, WA can both apply for state\federal recognized civil unions for tax, health care, and other purposes.
Well, that's my thoughts anyway. I think the gay activists driving this (and their lawyers) would gain a little more respect and ground if they would show a little respect for the those who feel strongly about traditional marriage. Find common ground, seek equal GOVERNMENT recognition, but respect those who have strong religious or cultural feelings. Respecting diversity needs to go both ways...
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#269849 - 08/09/04 03:39 PM
Re: Marriage
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Carcass
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
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Yes, marriage is a religious institution. I get it. I'm not sure what the point is though?
So...does that mean marriage is ONLY for the religious? If so, define religious. Is merely believing in God enough? Church twice a month, twice a year....what?
Furthermore as stated its a Jewish institution at that. Why should Christians be allowed to marry if this is the logic being used?
Why stop there? How about this....ugly people should not be allowed to marry. I don't want to see two ugly people walking down the street holding hands. It offends me. The thought of two ugly people entangled in the missionary position is sickening.
Ban it.
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"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101
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#269850 - 08/09/04 03:50 PM
Re: Marriage
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Carcass
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
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There is another school of thought on this subject.....
Marriage goes against nature. It is against the nature of men to be with a single partner their entire lives. In fact biologically speaking in order to ensure the furtherance of ones bloodline a male should inseminate as many females as he can in his lifetime.
This is the case in most matriarchal societies, Samoans and ancient Hawaiians for example. Interestingly, the family units of both societies are/were among the 'tightest' of any culture until christian missionaries changed that aspect of their culture. This in turn led to the crumbling of the matriarchal family unit and the downfall of these beautiful cultures.
I find these cultural differences fascinating, growing up in rural Hawaii I was immersed in the culture of the ancient Hawaiians. The 'sanctity' of marriage didn't do much for them.
Just an alternate perspective is all.
_________________________
"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101
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#269851 - 08/09/04 05:07 PM
Re: Marriage
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
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two separate issues.
Religous marriage- Usually a non issue with Gays because most churches would not marry them.
State Sactioned marrige- generally to assign feduciary rights and resposibilites for obligations,benifts and upon death . Probably should be called a civil union. Why should anyone not be able to assign thier benefits or assets to one of their choosing?
To uphold the constitution of the US Gays need to have all rights Granted under the powers of the constitution. Anything else is discrimination. Amending the constitution re gay marriage might be a leagal game but it sets a dangerous precedent. That of altering the document to exclude a group. It's wrong and a waste of time.
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Liberalism is a mental illness!
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#269852 - 08/09/04 05:29 PM
Re: Marriage
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
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BBVD,
You are correct in that marriage began as a religious institution. I don't know when or where it first became a state institution as well. Of course, not so long ago, many states and religions were one and the same. Many countries/governments have official state religions. Fast-forwarding to comtemporary America, marriage is both a religious and a state institution. A recognized marriage is one for which there is a state-issued marriage license, regardless of whether a religious service certified the marriage or not. Since being married in this country involves having a state-issued marrigage license, and since it involves a number of insurance, inheritence, and legal guardian/caregiver issues, marriage is very much a state issue.
As an aside, when I got married many long years ago, I truthfully wondered why I had to obtain a marriage license from the state. I figured since I was being married in a church and it was being officiated by my pastor that the whole affair was none of the state's business. What I learned is that the state made marriage its business because the state has an interest in knowing who is going to support the kids that result from a marriage. That is, the state doesn't want to get stuck paying welfare for kids if able-bodied parents are trying to be dead beats. There were likely other reasons, too, but the thing about who pays to raise kids is mainly what I recall. Seems kind of funny if that is the pretext for denying marriage licenses to homosexuals, doesn't it?
States and our nation are institutions of law. The laws derive their authority from the state and federal constitutions. The constitutions guarantee equal protections and considerations for all citizens. Those guarantees are not limited just to heterosexual citizens. Consequently, judges are ruling that denying homosexuals state-issued marriage licenses denies them certain guaranteed freedoms that belong to all citizens. Hence, we are in a transitional period of extending state-sactioned marriage and its attendant benefits to homosexual citizens who were previously denied their due constitutionally protected rights.
I can understand why some relgious people would deny homosexuals the covenant of marriage for religious reasons if their religion is opposed to that. I don't understand the reasoning for denying a state-recognized marriage to them, however, unless that person is trying to use their religious convictions to impose their religious will on other people through a state regulated process. That seems like state sanctioning of a particular religious doctrine, which is illegal under the separation of church and state, however.
Sincerely,
Salmo g.
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#269853 - 08/09/04 06:00 PM
Re: Marriage
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Spawner
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 679
Loc: AUBURN
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bbvd, i assume you are a christian,? god himself instituted marriage in the garden of eden, , im sure you know the story, many want to bend the truth to support a life of lies, but thats the way it goes, wickedness will be around till jesus comes back and crushes it.. its god's will that no one perishes but all men come to repentance..
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#269854 - 08/09/04 06:56 PM
Re: Marriage
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
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It is also important to point out that all sin is equal in the eyes of God. So those that want to make a biblical case for those that are gay being sinners. It is no worse than telling a little white lie like one would who is say divorced after being married in a Christian church. . There is no degree in sin it's all just sin.
I doubt jesus would turn his back on a gay married or not asking for forgiveness. Taking the works as a bible on the whole in spirit.
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Liberalism is a mental illness!
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#269856 - 08/10/04 01:26 AM
Re: Marriage
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1557
Loc: Third stone from the sun
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Why doesn't John "just keep telling them we're from France" Kerry go on record with the rest of the 'enlightened people' and say that he supports states and federal governments legally recognizing gay and lesbian marriages? He seems to be sensitive to the same sex issue: http://boortz.com/more/cartoons/071504_running_mate.html
_________________________
"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid
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#269857 - 08/10/04 01:45 AM
Re: Marriage
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Carcass
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
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"My distaste for the gay lifestyle has nothing to do with the bible or religion"
Then please explain WHY you are opposed to it and then refer back to my comments about ugly people 'in flagrante dilecto'.
Also, substantiate the way in which a gay couple being married rams anything down your throat.
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"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101
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