Sol -
I haven't followed all the deleted discussions however have a couple comments/concerns in addition to those by Salmo g. to add to you wild brood stock hatchery example.

The first is that in your example we run a very high risk of a handful of families of fish dominate the population. In your example of 100,000 smolts and 10% survival it is likely that as many as 3,000 hatchery fish would end up spawning in the wild. Now most of our individual steelhead stocks (Sol Duc, Hoh, Sauk, etc) are no larger than that so 1/2 of more of the natural spawners would be hatchery fish. I guess that would be OK if the original brood stock were representive of the wild population of course the likely hood of that being the case is very low. As a result such a program will run the risk of alternating the genetic makeup of the wild population.

Secondly the smolts from such a hatchery program would be exposed to a different environment and selective pressures than their wild brothers for their freshwater rearing stage. Most work to date has shown that different selection pressure often results in their offspring being less successful in the wild (individual spawners less successful). Becasue of the size of your program those "hatchery" produced fish would be spawning with many of the natural produced fish resulting in not only lowering the productivity of the natural spawning hatchery/hatchery cross but the hatchery/wild crosses as well. If the two groups of fish were more or less equal in size only 1/4 of the natural matings would involved parents who were both wild.

While many may be comfortable with those potential risks I'm not. I have completely ignored the management questions of what happens to the wild produced fish when the tribal gills net attempt to catch their 1/2 of the hatchery fish that are returning at approximately the same time as the wild fish. But I reasonable sure that they would be fishing for those hatchery fish.

Tight lines
Curt

Curt, you outlined pretty much my own personal feelings about broodstock programs very well...mining wild fish to create harvestable fish that may or may not even return at as high a rate as the wild fish had they just been left alone makes zero sense to me.

For some reason the guys running the program down on the Chehalis tribs were surprised, but they shouldn't have been...as soon as the broodstock program had harvestable numbers of fish, the Quinalts starting netting later into the year to get at them...and, of course, were netting up the wild fish while they were at it.

I'm not saying that broodstock programs in general do not work, but the amount of effort that has been put into running them, versus the amount of monitoring that has actually been done on them to see if and how they work, is astronomically lopsided towards running the programs, with little monitoring or testing having been done at all.

Fish on...

Todd

I have two comments, Smalma. When you talk about "different selection pressure often results in their offspring being less successful in the wild," is there data to substantiate this where one generation removed steelhead are concerned as is the case with broodstock production, or are you talking about hatchery production of steelhead many generations removed in general?

Second, the statement about the tribes targeting broodstock fish the same time as native fish returning is ambigous to me. Don't the tribes get half of the wild fish, too?

There have been some great posts in this thread, something maybe we can all learn from. Keep them coming. Thanks

Sol -
Good questions! This whole idea of wild brood stock is so damn seductivity; it in effect is promising the opportunity to have our cake and eat it as well. As we know life rarely works that way. The issues I raised are just a couple of the potential pit falls of these integrated programs.

In general when folks are talking about wild brood stock programs it is often in the abstract. The reality is that steelhead of the anadromous salmonids traditionally cultured here in the PNW are the most difficult to successfully integrate the hatchery and wild fish. This is due to the their extended freshwater rearing - for example many Chinook spend only 3 months or so in freshwater while steelhead 2 years, late spawning timing - making it difficult to achieve smolts from the later portion of the natural spawning population, and their complex and diverse life histories. As the article provided by Aunty M points out the longer the fish are in the hatchery the less successful they are in the wild - that time can be both the period before release and the number of generations. The rearing selection is compounded with the same fish are used for succeeding generations. Of course one of the problems with a large scale hatchery program as you suggested is that is likely that very few of the "wild" brood being collected after a couple generations didn't have one or more grand parents who were from the hatchery.

Remember that the tribes are entitled to half of the HARVESTABLE wild fish. In many systems there ar little or limited amounts of harvestable wild fish so in accessing the hatchery fish the tribal fishery could over-fish the wild population and hope to make up the escapement short fall with hatchery spawners. In addition in many of the those systems the tribes would be keep wild fish while to make the numbers work the sport fishery would have to be WSR. I'm sure that would fly well with many.

This hatchery approach at least with steelhead is betting that the future productivity of the wild populations will be protected by this hatchery approach. We have had the promise that hatchery fish can make up for wild fish short falls for more than a century and I for one am very uncomfortable with risking wild steelhead production with the idea that this time the hatchery science has gotten it right.

Tight lines
Curt

Thanks, Curt, Marsha and of course Salmo.

Here's how I see it. Debating the viability of broodstock production as a measure of aiding or sustaining wild steelhead stocks, while tribal harvest of half the HARVESTABLE wild fish continues to take place is a waste of time.

Fly and I came up with the SolFly idea as a means of embracing brotherhood among steelheaders. The mud on your boots as you slog into the hatchery hole in December, the blood on your rod handle after scoring some metal, and the smell of blooming cottonwood in March and April as you swing your presentation though a classic run in hopes of encountering a large native steelhead are but a few of the little things that define the passion that brings our fraternity together. The bickering among factions that has occured with regard to how event proceeds are spent flys in the face of our original intent.

One thing is clear. There will likely be peace in the middle east before there is resolve and unity among the fishing community where wild steelhead are concerned. Fly and I will contine to promote this event as a derby for as many years as the law allows. When and if derbies targeting wild fish become illegal, we'll turn it into the SolFly Party. The good people that have shown an interest in this event are not coming to catch the wining fish. They are coming to be among their people, laugh, have a good time, and if they are lucky, pay a streamside tribute to the icon of our sport---the wild steelhead.

Amen Tim...

Conservative church going wives will get down on their knees and give their husbands head before there is resolve and unity among the fishing community where wild steelhead are concerned.

There, I fixed it.

Conservative church going wives will get down on their knees and give their husbands head in church before there is resolve and unity among the fishing community where wild steelhead are concerned.

There, I fixed it...

Preach on Tim!

I knew he could not hold out for too much longer

Also it is a known fact that wild steelhead actually come and go to different watersheds and seem to diversify as a system will change Alaska is a good example but I'm sure Washington has their share of diversity; fish that were in the Hoh ending up in the duc a good example is the solduc hatchery spring chinook that wandered into the Hoh 2 years ago as an example!!!PEACE

And wild steelhead rise better to bamboo. Amen, brotha'!!