Maybe he will plea bargain and settle for getting his Costco Executive membership downgraded to a Gold membership.

"As for the "self defense" thing - the guy had better have a weapon on him for you to claim "self defense". Getting your ass kicked probably won't cut it. Not too sure I'd buy the "I felt as if my life was threatened" just from getting your ass beat in parking lot."

I disagree. Once the "just getting your ass beat in a parking lot" begins there is no way to tell where it will stop. When you are on the ground getting your head kicked in you would probably wish you had been more proactive. Anyone dragging a person out of their car is more than asking for the Mozambique IMHO. Hard to imagine that wouldn't be justifiable self defense.

This happened in a crowded Costco gas station. Tons of people there. You telling me that no one would have intervened and stopped this altercation before Mav was beaten to death?

That's what I'm saying as the dudes defense lawyer after Mav stabbed/shot my poor innocent and UNARMED client.

If Mav had pulled a weapon and used it, he'd probably be in jail right now.

Regardless if he was "in the right", is/was it worth it to spend some time in pokey, let alone the $$$ it's going to cost in legal fees to defend your innocence?

No.

The smart moves says leave the weapons out of the picture *unless* the situation dictates differently. Ie, I'd agree with you if it was a deserted parking lot, or if the guy pulled a weapon.

First Off- Mav, Good job handling this. it's clear to me by your description that you kept your cool during this assault...and to be honest, from what little I know of you, I'm not all that surprised.


Well, lets drop any assumptions we might make here about the proper response to an assault like this and look at what the law says.

From what I read here, http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.110,

"1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030."

This is the only RCW I can find that speaks to Self Defense, does anyone know of any different provisions?

edit, there is also this provision- Use of force, when lawful: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

and the section which applies here: " (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
"


If this is all that there is in the RCW's relating to self defense, it seems pretty clear to me that "Any reasonable means necessary" means you must respond with force equal to what is being inflicted upon you. But who's to say things wouldn't get any worse?

Speaking figuratively....if someone grabs a Knife, are you supposed to only respond with a knife?
Well, hell no.... That's totally unreasonable.
Where in the law does it specifically state, if it does...that you cannot use overpowering force while defending oneself?

"Reasonable Response" means how would a reasonable person respond to the threat, or more to the point, would a reasonable person determine from the threat presented that imminent death or grave injury could happen to themselves or someone else if they don't act?

Lots of folks would say "He threatened me, and I would have shot him!"...but most of them are just blowing hot airl...and if they weren't and were in this situation, they'd be in jail for something much worse than this punk is going to get.

You don't have to respond to a six inch knife with a six inch knife...if someone pulled a knife on you and a reasonable person would conclude that he intends to use it and cause grave harm or death, meeting that threat with deadly force would appropriate. Same with a baseball bat, or an iron bar.

If they are intending to kick your ass, you'd have to make a reasonable determination on where this is going to end up...not an eviable position to be in.

As a general rule...if the situation can be defused or avoided without the use of deadly force, then deadly force is per se not reasonable. If a reasonable person would conclude that it can't be avoided, and that the danger is grave harm or death, then deadly force is justified.

Fish on...

Todd

Where I see the problem with this is how can a person depend on a bystander to intervene in stopping some thug from severely injuring you after dragging you out of your car. There is no way to tell how a situation like this is going to end up. How much of a beating are you going to take before you decide it's enough and at that point are you still capable of defending yourself?

"If they are intending to kick your ass, you'd have to make a reasonable determination on where this is going to end up...not an eviable position to be in."

How is it possible to make a reasonable determination on where an assault is going to end up. This is such a grey area. I just think that once you enter a persons vehicle or home and physically contact that person with intention of violence the line has been crossed and victim should have the benefit of the doubt.

It's hard...that's why I said it's not an enviable position to be in.

Entering your home or car, or actually contacting you, is definitely evidence that starts to pile up on the side of being able to justify being violent back...when enough piles up to cross the line, well, the unfortunate truth is that it could end up being up to a jury to decide.

Fish on...

Todd

http://legalselfdefense.blogspot.com/2008/08/washington.html

http://www.corneredcat.com/Legal/resources.aspx

Remember that the issue we're actually discussing here is "justifiable homicide" or "excusable homicide", not just mere self-defense.

Fish on...

Todd

its amazing how calm you can be under pressure like that, happens to me when life threating things happen, unless it was my old boss, then i would get anxiety....

anyway, heard if you use your gun you better keep pulling the trigger till all the rounds are gone...that would help with the "i feared for my life"....that sucks dude...c

And if the situation comes down to having to defend yourself with force, talk to your attorney before talking to the police. No disrepect to police but you never know what conclusions the prosecutor's office will come up with when they read the police report.

Even though it may not feel like it, you did good. And reporting it was the right thing to do as well. Forget the "could of"/"should have"/"would have" crap......you done good.

Try not to let thoughts about it own too much of your life. It's not likely at all that you will ever experience it again, so don't bother spending your life being prepared for a situation exactly like the one you just went through.

The legal process will be slow, and likely you will get little satisfaction from the outcome. It's just one of those things. The legal system is set up for defense, not prosecution.

Be grateful....hug your wife, kids, mom....maybe Thanksgiving will be a little extra special for you this year.

The best to you and yours.

+1

Any situation that allows you to go home with all of your body parts intact is a good one.

Amen brother, Amen.

Glad you're OK, MAV. You done good, bro.

Little Ornamental f'r like me would probably have slipped right thru the seat belt and got my ass dragged out of the vehicle for a royal pummeling.

You don't always have to shoot to kill, a round in the knee will stop most folks.

But ,Jerry I am afraid that would land you and him in jail only he would have a line of professional liars outside of his, ready to sue you, and they would probably win.

mavsled,
Keep us posted as to what happens to this guy if anything.

I am going through a similiar situation only the perp was a drunk sailor and my girlfriend is the defendant. Broke her window out because she kicked them out of her place of employment.Two month later,no charges,and they know who did it.Keep claiming ncis is not co-operating with local cops.Cost me 250.00 for a new window.She quit because she was so scared.I am siting here wishing I would of been there.Do things the right way the legal way and nothing happens.What frustrates me even more is that I believe that law enforcement is shoving this aside because she is such a sweetie and refuses to push their buttons.The story is longer than that but not here not now.

I have become a vigilante.Not a hot head but a vigilante.You and all your weapons would of shot that guy you get twenty years he would get thirty days.Why?Because some lawyer would hire a private detective.That detective would find post like I dug up and use it against you.Right?No.Reality?yes.My post was not meant to be a personal attack.I hate hearing one side of a story,nothing to do with you,that is just me.

You are very right when you say that he probably did not take his unborn into his critical thought process.

peace and good luck.

\Edit:I need to add that it is not the police officers on the street that I have lost respect for.

I'd look at it from a "what would a cop have done". A cop wouldn't have shot him. Pepper spray, taser, flashlight/club or duke it out. Taser would be cool just to watch the guy go from raging lunatic to flopping jelly fish....and a crowd pleaser to boot. One could think of this as a missed opportunity.

Stlhead......first off, you are dreaming.

If you want to grab a cop while he/she is in the car (any car) and try to pull the cop out of the vehicle while seat belted, I'd say that the chances of you getting out of that situation without a leak are really, really, really risky.

The pepper spray is a great idea, but you would likely get it all over yourself as well. How cool would that be?

Go ahead, swing a club/flashlight in your car, see how that works.

or

Duke it out with a monster twice as big as you.


Some great advice there.

Wow,good job staying cool about it.Don't know what I would have done.Good luck,
STRIKE ZONE