Now there is a possibility. Wipe out! That reminds me of a song.

FD

What is really funny about that is that anybody that knows me knows that I am about as granola and honey as KK is pro life... I'm actually one of those bikers guys that would just as soon tape them up to a tree, piss on them and then cut down the tree. But whatever...

The problem with man trying to fix the fish runs is that there is no way for man to predict what he is doing to the entire food chain until it is too late. Nature in itself is a balancing act and when man tries to correct something its is usually on one side or the other of the balance point. Artificially boosting fish runs will deplete the smaller side of the food chain while increasing the larger side until it collapses and swings the other way. My opinion is that mans influence actually forces the pendulum to swing farther in both directions.

Fish are about the last remaining wild commodity that is still exploited globally. Until that changes we are stuck in this cycle of good and bad and it will probably continue until we introduce some disease that kills all the fish altogether...

Sliding my DB in at wallace flats and pulling plugs all day in front of the smoker. Fish after fish! 1980's

Here's a couple of thought that will go over like a fart in church.....

1) Stop boating rivers. Too simple, eh?

Think about it. It will give refuge to fish.

OK, stop boating numerous areas. You know.....where the water runs downhill.

I grew up here too. And my recollections are similar to those already posted. I remember it was us kids job to gather in the smoke house fish. We did this in numerous ways (that's all I'm going to say about that), but put simply....there were lots and lots of fish.

As I grew up (high school age or so) many of the teachers fished commercially....perfect job I thought. Three months off to fish and sell your catch......my idea of heaven, I think.

The "good ol' days" of sport fishing are gone.....likely never to return.
Here's the other...

2) The only hope is to allow commercial sale of raised fish only....hatchery born, or farmed. That is why selective fishing is a must. And I don't give a good healthy crap if you are "entitled" or not.

Now both of those ideas are really going to fly, aren't they?

what new technology ?, what do we know now that we didnt know 30 years ago ?

Piper said,"Artificially boosting fish runs will deplete the smaller side of the food chain while increasing the larger side until it collapses and swings the other way."

Can you explain this statement?
FD

Oxymoron? No, I think that's the Judicial Branch (Article 3 of the Constitution) functioning as a check on an agency created by the Executive Branch (Article 2). Often, the system works.

Its the balance between predator and prey... more fish mean more seals and sealions (and fishermen) and less krill and baitfish... when the balance swings too far one way or the other one end will die off until balanced is reached again... (way over simplified but hopefully you get the idea)

Salmon and Steelhead are a unique creature in that they spend their life in many different ecosystems over a very short life span. They also have huge impact on the health of those ecosystems. I for one, am not comfortable with man screwing with the health of the rivers, puget sound, and the pacific ocean... there is just too much that can go wrong (and already has)...

Lucky for us it will not be up to me to decide what to do... I would cut off all ocean harvest... cut off harvest in all rivers that wont support it and focus on recovering the natural spawning in rivers. Hatcheries should only be in place where a neccessary dam is in place (cheap electricity is nice). Those hatcheries should be removed when fish passage as well as new turbine diversion structures are in place... Mean while we better get used to eating farmed fish, Seal, Sealion and commorants... Call it a "Piper Dream" if you will.


Edit: I would also eliminate fishing for profit (or strictly regulate it) as it leads to over consumption and waste.

Do you think 30 years have been wasted with no studies? I don`t, those men working with our fish know what is going on, they know how to raise healthy fish. They know what it would take to renew natural spawning. If we`d let them do the job that they`re paid to do we`d make progress for fish and fishermen. Bill

Virtually our entire hatchery system and protocols are the same, just with a few refinements and ditching of a few really bad ideas, as they have been for over 100 years...that's probably part of why they don't work so well.

Fish on...

Todd

like get all the hatchery fish out of the system ?, they have known that for decades.

Now there's an idea! There are still people who think like this? That was the theory 100 years ago...and look where we ended up.

Ike

You native only guys,PLEEEASE. Isn`t there a PETA meeting or similiar that your missing out on? I thought this website was for fishermen. If your really for shutting down all the hatcheries and you eventually get your way, there`s going to be a whole lot fewer of us in the future. Bill

Dont worry Bill we will never get our way... there is too much money in both producing and harvesting fish...

I will give you the fact that fishing would be awesome if all the rivers spit out the clones like the Bogy or the Cow back in the day... But honestly though, I would take a run of mother natures finest anyday of the week.

It is a global problem that is going to take a global solution... hatcheries are just a patch that covers the real issues...

With out reading the above....

Seems like yesterday.

Really! Especially the C & K rivers.

Mf

A bunch of these excellent posts get me thinking:
The quotes are in quotes marks with a few comments in between. When I figure out how to highlight or do italics I will try that.

Piper said something I snipped:
"The problem with man trying to fix the fish runs is that there is no way for man to predict what he is doing to the entire food chain until it is too late. Nature in itself is a balancing act and when man tries to correct something its is usually on one side or the other of the balance point."

Very true , Law of unintended consequences.

And SlabHappy said this painful thing:
"The only hope is to allow commercial sale of raised fish only....hatchery born, or farmed. That is why selective fishing is a must. And I don't give a good healthy crap if you are "entitled" or not."

Ouch. I think I see where he is going. separate commercial and hatchery from native fish that make native babies. And no entitlements. I agree. Might work.

And Todd said,
"Virtually our entire hatchery system and protocols are the same, just with a few refinements and ditching of a few really bad ideas, as they have been for over 100 years...that's probably part of why they don't work so well.

Fish on..."

So true. The hatchery and MSY approach has been tried this long, and longer. didn't work then. Doesn't work now. "One definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different outcome."

billjr64 opined, with honest intent:
"You native only guys,PLEEEASE. Isn`t there a PETA meeting or similiar that your missing out on? I thought this website was for fishermen. If your really for shutting down all the hatcheries and you eventually get your way, there`s going to be a whole lot fewer of us in the future. Bill"

Prolly not any PETA guys here, unless you mean "People Eating Tasty Animals." And I am pretty sure there are only fishermen here. You can make a strong case for shutting down all the hatcheries, and closing down all fisheries, and letting the "Wild," "Native," and "Hatchery" fish sort it out. That would include changing off shore fisheries and broaching a few dams,of course. And letting some fish carcasses degrade up rivers. Not likely, as in, not an answer.

And Piper summed it up:
"Dont worry Bill we will never get our way... there is too much money in both producing and harvesting fish...

I will give you the fact that fishing would be awesome if all the rivers spit out the clones like the Bogy or the Cow back in the day... But honestly though, I would take a run of mother natures finest anyday of the week.

It is a global problem that is going to take a global solution... hatcheries are just a patch that covers the real issues..."


Gents, and Ladies, we either figure this out and add to the solution, or we roll over and whine. I am not ready to roll over. We may not be able to make a difference but it is a foregone conclusion that if we don't work on it then our kids lose. I intend to work on it. If we lose, then we lose. Let's plan on succeeding.


Thanks.

Anybody paid attention to what the thread was supposed to be about? More appropriate threads are available to save the world. :

Your right RG, my original thread on this was on topic. I was trying to raise a little cheer amid the doom and gloom that I had been reading on this thread. Unfortunately I included the word "hatchery" which seems to inflame some here. Back on topic, the good old days are coming, the runs may be small now but they`re coming. Springer fishing is right around the corner and we`re expecting a banner year. Tuna will be close in this year and I`m expecting to plug the boat every time out with a few new tactics that I`ll be trying. Summer steelhead runs have been record breaking the last few years so we can expect more of the same this coming summer. It`s going to be a busy year, here`s to the good old days that are in our future. Bill

Not trying to save the world, just following the thread.

I apologize for going off thread to the group, but Rivrguy, I think the last 15 or so posts indicate what people care about.

The good days I recall are with my Uncle Oren on the dam at Lake Pleasant in Arizona in the 60's. We "trolled " along the dam by walking back and forth with these goofy white jigs and we slammed the White Bass.

I was on the Green River locally in the 70's and apologize out here for multiple "sin fish" I took getting pissed off about the small trout that took my bait. Jeez, Louize, they were smolt.

RivrGuy, if you have a problem with me just email me; I'll buy the coffee. Wishing you the best.