Didn't want this to get buried under the tiger trout topic and it is a very good topic to discuss. I read everyone's viewpoints and I agree with both sides actually.

My problem with powerbait, and other types of bait is when people grade the fish. By this I mean, they fish with bait... catch an 8" fish... know there are bigger fish then try to release the 8" fish.

Fish caught with bait RARELY live. They may look okay when they swim off, but they aren't. It is very difficult to release fish caught with bait. That is why we have the regulation, "when using bait the first five fish you catch are your limit" (paraphrased). Grading has gotten so bad on some of our waters that I have looked into "No Bait" regs on some of them. But that would take away the opportunity for kids who are not really into the whole fly fishing style or use of lures.

We as an agency need to do more to educate about how to catch and release... however, when you use bait you should be keeping those fish if it is legal to do so. Once you have caught your five trout using bait you are done for the day... period.

The thing I don't like about powerbait is that it leaves a nasty film on top of the water and if a bunch of people are using it the fish stop biting simply because there is so much bait floating around. I have seen this on several lakes on Opening Day.

But, I do not think one user group (bait vs. fly fishers) is better than another. It is our goal (in Reg. 5) to provide opportunities for both groups. If you do use bait, please please be careful about releasing these fish. If you don't intend to eat them or take them home, then use another method (lures etc) if possible. It saves the fish for another day.

That was a great discussion by the way. No problem with getting passionate about how you feel, as long as it's polite!

stace

Thank Stace! I'm with you 100%.

I fish with spinners and spoons as well as rapalas a lot for trout. The fish never swallow these lures (of course), but it seems they will get hooked around/in the eye 50% of the time, especially if I have trebles on those lures. I always keep these fish, realeasing the ones that are just hooked in the lip/snout. When fishing with bait, which I also do quite frequently, I have noticed and picked up on a few things. Fishing Powerbait will get you a throat hooked fish almost all the time, unless you're real careful and can detect the bite right away and immediately set the hook. But, I don't think releasing fish after catching them with bait is rational either. I do hate having to cut the leaders that are stuck way down in the fish's craw after catching them, and wait until I clean them to get the hook out though. So, I don't use Powerbait that much anymore. Instead I use eggs, marshmellows, corn, and nightcrawlers. While fishing these, I either hold my rod and slowly reel keeping the line tight, or I watch it REALLY close in the rod holder. This way as soon as I see/feel the bite, I'm on it and set the hook. I've gotten so good at this technique that most of my fish hooked on bait in the last few years have been hooked right in the lip/snout, not in the craw. I think trout suck the bait in as they hit it. I am able to set it to them when they're still mouthing it though. Now, like I said, I'm not rationalizing catch and release with bait, I'm just giving an idea out there for those of you that don't like digging for your leaders in a fish's mouth after landing them.

Hi Stacie: It's nice to see you chime in on this issue. I perhaps overkilled when I said
I'd like to see a powerbait ban, but as you know there IS no way to practice conservation
using powerbait or any other bait for that matter, though I see many people practicing C&R baitfishing and grading, in my area it's a big problem. These fish are wasted,period.

I think you SHOULD list those lakes where you have a grading problem as NO BAIT lakes.
Those with children do not have to have every lake available to them to find a good spot
for the kids to fish. Besides, much of the real young kids fishing thing is actually parents fishing with
their kids in order to fishhog a second or third limit of trout. The older kids should be
learning to fish barbless flies or single hook barbless lures as they can cast well enuff.

I wholeheartedly endorse your idea that the Dept. should be more proactive in endorsing
C&R fishing and in holding seminars to teach those who want to learn to flyfish C&R.
So many people think that it's a magic coordination thing and get discouraged from trying
when in reality you do not even have to cast to fish chironomids or drag nymphs.

My last point to you is that we are getting serious crowding on our quality and fly fishing only
lakes in E.Wash and also those in W.Wash to a lesser degree. This indicates to me a rapidly
growing trend away from bait fishing for 8-10" trout and into fishermen serching for a quality large
trout fishing expericence. Your Department has done a good job on most of the quality lakes
it has designated. However, there should be many many more of them. Take a lood at
Canadas lead. Perhaps 40% are restricted limit.
Thanks again for your input and participation on our web forum. It should be manditory reading for most of your Depts. staff.

I can't speak for the other Regions, but here in Reg. 5 we have a limited number of lakes to spread across all the user groups (trout vs. warmwater, bait vs. fly fisher). The lakes I can think of right off that are popular for FF are Merrill Lake, Castle Lake and Coldwater. These are sometimes difficult to get into.

Then we have many local bait-put and take lakes.

A lot of our high lakes are selective gear fisheries. Do you think that opportunity should be spread to lowland lakes as well? I want to make sure I understand your post!

I am not sure of how the other Regions are managing their waters.

By the way, I appreciate your posts. They are really full of good information. I LOVE to hear this stuff from anglers because it helps give us ideas on how we can provide better opportunities for you!

Your right, this can be a sticky subject. It seems like we already have a separation of fishermen and women, some fish only trout and warmwater species, some just the rivers, and the fly fishers. I personally am a bait fisher on lakes only, but I do keep the first five caught. I agree that there needs to be more education in the fishing world, this might also restrict some of the conflict between the different factions.
When I taught Hunter Ed. the department had a Fishing ed. component, but I haven't heard much of it since, is it still operating? If it is maybe some fishing classes.
I hate to see closing lakes to certain types of fishing, some people with disabilities can not flyfish, (I am one). This is a tough question to answer and be fair to everyone. On the powerbait issue, most of the people I see on the lakes I frequent seem to use common sense (most of the time), when it comes to this type of bait. It seems like we are back to the old problem of a few ruining it for the rest. One suggestion might be enforcement, I did not see one officer on any of the lakes I go to this past year, so the offenders think they can get away with catch and release when using bait. Sometimes just the presence of enforcement changes the whole picture.
Keep up the good work in region 5 and I'm glad I don't have to have the final word.

Stacie: I lived in your area in Naselle and Kelso for about 12 years total. It does have the problem of too few lakes. I have no real problem with the flyfish lakes management in your area as all 3 are restricted limit. Castle seems to be going downhill a little and may need augumentation plants eventually. There are only about a dozen other lakes to consider in your area. My concept is that at least the richer 20% of that dozen or so, like perhaps Horsethief and maybe Rowland or Cress should be a quality lake for flys and barbless lures only w/1 fish limits.
Most of your high lakes in the St Helens and Indian Heaven lakes are relatively lightly fished and not rich lakes,so they are managed OK. I don't know what you mean by the high lakes being selective gear?? Aren't they mostly unlisted and thus under general regulations which would permit any fishing method? I know people bait fish them mostly.

Your area is not representative of most of Washington lake wise. Mason county where I fished the last 5 years I was in W. Wash is more representative of what I'm talking about. Spencer lake and Stump lake are rich lakes and capable of a quality fishery but managed as a fish factory for put and take. Another type there is tiny Deer lake and Tenas which are not rich but could be managed for a quiet escape type quality experienc with 1 fish limits; however under general year around regulations Deer at least is over baitfished and depleted by a handfull of local baiters within the first 2 months of the season. There are several other lakes rich enough to provide quality fishing around Mason and Kitsap county that are managed as put and take fisheries but could be converted to balance the present ratio of 95% put and take lakes and 5% or less quality. The only lakes in the Shelton area of quality regs are Prices and Cady and Koeneman in two counties of over125 lakes. Not a good ratio at all.
BTW, I was the supervisor who designed and supervised construction of the small campground
picnic area on Radar Ponds near Naselle.

Just thought I would throw my .001 of a cent into the topic of SW WA lakes and selective Regs. I believe we have ample opportunity in the area for selective and fly only waters. I would hate to see a bait restriction on any of our local put and take lakes, Battle Ground, Kline Line, Kress and Horseshoe. I believe it would be taking away opportunities for the younger fishers. Realisticly there are quite a few kids who ride their bikes or walk to these lakes with out their parents and fish. A dozen worms is around a buck and a jar of PB is a couple dollars. Throw in some hooks, bobber and weights and your up to 7 or 8 dollars. In my opinion these anglers are the future and I can't think of any other sport or hobby that could be better for shaping a kids future. The bottom line for kids to get hooked on fishing is to catch fish and bait is the easiest way for catching fish.
As far adding some lakes for the selective fishing and supplementing others, I would have to disagree with fishnfella about The St. Helens area lakes. There are 4 lakes located just west of Coldwater Lake that have a very rich food base and grow some incredible fish. These lakes would offer some tremendous fishing if a selective fishery were in place. As far as Castle Lake, there should absolutly not be any stocking in this lake. The lake has never been stocked and I don't see a need to start now. The average size has gone down from 16" to around 12" in the past decade, but the number of fish present in the lake has rising. I think this can be attributed to the lakes natural progression. Anyways, it's still great fishing. There's not to many places where you can catch and release over 50 wild trout in a day. Now if we could just talk the USFS into opening Spirit Lake!!

Hey trouter: I can't agree with your post as to needing to keep any lake as a bait
lake just for the kids. Besides Kress, Horsethief,and Rowland get almost no kids walking
or riding bikes to them. Even for the others your concern could be addressed by a kids
only section where bait is allowable. On most this would work and still allow a quality fishery.
Besides that parents who fish should be teaching the older kids a fishing method which lends
itself to conservation and that's not bait.

Also I fished the 4 lakes,actually 6-7 lakes W. of Coldwater for years and can't remember any fish
over about 15-16" and those were rare.. Perhaps some of these lakes could produce a quality fisheries with reduced stocking. I'd like to see it done if it's possible. But they didn't impress me as particularly rich lakes.

As to Castle lake you are better informed than me currently about that one... I heard that it was fishing down from the days several years back when I fished it without much detail. I assumed (wrongly probably) that it was from lack of spawning. They may have meant fishing down in size
if your expericnce is lots of 16" fish the opposite is likely true. Those "new" lakes go through
a progression of relatively abundant food which is gradually depleted by the population of large fish
so the size declines over the years.

Fishnfella I agree with you about bait not being the best thing for the conservation of a fishery. But new anglers have to start somewhere. I'll use myself for example. At this point of my fishing life I'm mostly a catch and release fly-fisher. I progressed to this type of fishing over the years. I don't think the majority of todays fly-fishers caught their first fish on a fly. I started fishing with bait when I was younger. As I matured as a fisherman I wanted to expand my fishing experiences, so I started using lures. Now I fly-fish(not exactly pretty). I think new anglers, no matter what their age should be allowed to make this proggession in put and take lakes.
The four lakes in the Mt. St. Helens area I was refering to were Fawn, Elk, Forest and Haneford. I've seen 20" Brook Trout and 4# cutts come from these lakes. In my opinion if a reduced limit and selective regs were put in place in a couple of these lakes it may provide some quality fishing. This may not be neccessary now because Weyerhaeuser has shut down vehicle access to these lakes. So fishing pressure is probably way down.
Good discusion

Sure trouter, where did you see me trying to hog it all? All I'm saying is that
a lot more of our richer lakes should be managed for quality fishing, that's all.
I think(mostly from Canadian experiences and friends) though that there is
a powerbait and catch and kill mentality here where the majority of fishermen and
women NEVER progress away from bait to barbless single hook lures or flies like
you did.

This in my opinion has got to change and we're not really starting to change it yet.
Our buck buys less and less catchable fish each year and there are more and more
fishermen to share those. The practice of planting expensive triploids in powerbait lakes where
98% will never reach their potential is a waste of money and fuzzy thinking
caused by powerbaiters pressuring F&G for larger fish.

Flyfishing with C&R Conservation is the ONLY answer and that also means reduced limits or no limits. It has the huge benefit of being able to provide larger quality fish grown mainly by the lake itself.
Our fishing public needs to be told and cajoled that we cannot go on running most of our trout fishery as a welfare meat program.
Those who fish frequently for meat should share MORE of the available water with sportsmen on say
a 50-50% basis of available lakes and they also should see the handwriting on the wall and
start the process you describe of learning to flyfish and correctly handle and release trout.
This also is lower cost and lower maintenance for F&G and allows them to shift more money to
lake rehab, habitat restoration, enhancement and fertilization (yes that will come some day)
and enforcement which I think is too damn scant nowadays.

Me again.

Well first off I wouldn't want Kress to be a quality lake as that my quality channel catfish lake!

I don't want to ruin any oppportunities for the kids, that is why I haven't made a big push to change Klineline although that lake has the biggest problem with people grading fish.

I want to see more opportunities for kids too, and I wouldn't expect them to have to use lures or flies!! Although I know there are some out there that are tremendous fly fishers!

It's not easy trying to balance between not only the user groups, but the different fish.

There is a big push to offer more warmwater fisheries right now! Which is really hard for us!! A lot of our waters are mixed species, but trying to find some to enhance with warmwater fish when you plant a lot of trout!

That is why I picked Kress for the channel cats. It's a great warmwater lake and we do put some trout in their too.

You guys have had some REALLY great responses to this issue! I like hearing all of your opinions, for and against the issues because it helps us figure out ways we can try and help everyone.

Hey fishnfella I must of misunderstood you. I agree with you about the tripliods and less fish being stocked for our money. Good Fishing To Ya

I agree that we could use a few more lakes and rivers managed for 'quality fishing'. I think put and take lakes are also important and some people really get a kick out of catching AND eating trout. Is this an education issue? No. Is is a welfare program gone astray? No. People enjoy hunting and they expect to eat what they kill. Why not let these type of people enjoy themselves on some water set aside for bait fisherman? Grading and other issues may be a problem - but that's an enforcement issue.

Where do you get off saying 'fly fishing is the ONLY way'??? I definately agree that some systems work best as 'fly fishing only', but most lakes/rivers would be fine with selective rules and c&r rules. (quick question - what's the difference between a guy fishign with a bobber and worm and a guy fishing a 'stike indicator' and chiromonid? All I can see is that one guy spent a few grand on a float tube and fly gear and the other spent maybe 100 bucks on a lawn chair and cheap spinning gear... The other difference is that the bait fisherman will need to keep every fish he catches up to his limit - which makes perfect sense on a put-and-take lake. Is one guy smarter than the other? Maybe not the one you think. Oops, sorry for digressing).

Stace, I think the idea of creating more 'selective fishing' and c&r fisheries is an exellent idea. And an educational program that teaches how to fish with single barbless hooks and how to catch and safely release fish would be awesome. Types of fishing that could be taught could vary from:
Fly Fishing in the traditional sense
Fishing a fly and 'fly bubble' from a spinning rod (works great - especially in lakes where you don't have a float tube and back casting is difficult)
Fishing spinners and spoons and other 'hardware'
Fishing jigs and other artificial lures

I don't think we should limit folks to fly fishing or make it sound like fly fishing is some 'holy grail'. Other forms of fishing are just as friendly to c&r and quality fisheries and often times more effective.

FishnfellaS, Flyfishing is the only answer? and you said your not an elitist,what a joke!

At the recent Sportman's show in Seattle WDFW was giving away the "fish release" sticks and teaching people how to use them. The release sticks were very popular.

i mostly use only powerbait when fishing for trout, but instead of the conventional hook, i have switched to the gammy circle hook, so in the hopes of not getting to many fish with gut hook but rather in the side of the mouth..cabelas has the circle hooks if any one is looking for them..**berkley boy**

fishfreak,

If you can't see the difference between bobber fishing with a worm and indicator fishing with a chronie.... then you missed the whole concept of fly fishing.

Stick with what methods work best for you. You won't be bothered with buying expensive rods anytime soon. But, maybe I'll see you on some of the eastside lakes when I make an occasional use of powerbait.

Somehow I can't believe you aren't a member of the Microsoft Flyfishing club.

no no NOOOOOO. My world has come crashing down. A recent report has stated that the all too famous "ZEN" has admitted to an all too common problem plagueing the world at a feverous pace. In a signed confession recieved and witnessed on 3/20/02, the infamous "Zen" clearly stated that he had fallen victim to the evils of, quote, "my sticky balls" or in lamens terms, Powerbait. Once again it has claimed another victim. Think of the children! Oh the horror! When will we stop the insanity???