The sky or Skagit would be good. But I think the skagit would work best with the Barnaby back running. But it's hard to find info on it to see why it closed.


Plus if we could get the PS rivers half way back it would take pressure off the the op.

doesnt the Sky still get a good winter run of brutes that go up the South Fork up past Sunset and Eagle?

Noble idea but I would hate to see whatever is left of the Skagit fish to be inundated beyond any thought of recovery with a mass supplementation of hatchery smolt.

But you can do it to the Sky if it will keep the masses off anywhere that I'm fishing.

Thanks for reminding me, Snow Creek is the right name. Trouble is when you get older, you forget things.... Even something important like that. Or even more important having to ask the Nurse to button your pants. OH, I did not forget that.....

As I noted above, it's already been tried on the Skagit/Sauk, and failed.

The things that cause the declines of wild steelhead runs will be totally unaffected by broodstock programs, which will not only not solve the problems that wild fish face, but will instead add additional problems.

Fish on...

Todd

The unfortunate thing for Wild Fish is you have to stop killing them. The only way to get a real return is to stop all fishing for at least two cycles. Is that possible, probably not.

In Bristol Bay in 1973 we had a return of about 5 million Sockeye. The fishing was changed from maximum sustainable harvest to maximum return. In 10 years, 2 cycles the return was 43 million Sockeye, of which we caught 27 million.

Do you think other Bio's could learn from this?????

On the coast, yes...on Puget Sound streams harvest is far, far, far down the list of what they are being depressed by...habitat destruction beats harvest by many magnitudes on "killing" steelhead in Puget Sound.

Fishing here and in Hood Canal has pretty much been completely stopped for a lot more than two cycles...but since the spawning habitat is shot, the rearing habitat is shot even more, predictably it made not even an appreciable dent in the decline.

Fish on...

Todd

i used to have the opportunity to fish the south side of the SF Sky, just below Sunset near the trap, this was 10-12 years ago.. ive hooked 25 pound fish there, and have seen quite a few 20+ pound fish poached on the other side of the river... i never landed mine, as i was spooled each time, but got great looks at the fish... and my 2/0 Gami that was like a needle when it came back, helped a bit too...

the fish there used to be HUGE, shame its not what it was, and that wasnt that long ago really... thats one hell of a river to be on just for the beauty, somethings gotta change here in WA, and its gotta happen fast... we cant just continue to lose runs, and the Indians need to realize that as well...

+100

So, if the Snider Program is ending in 2014, does this mean that the Quill's are also going to stop all netting of Sol Duc early run steelhead in 2014?

No.

Until the netting and all harvesting STOPS on these early fish, the run will continue to decline until extinction.

What does it say when Snider fish are taken out of the nets and thrown away dead back in the river?

The tribes want every wild fish to die. The closure of this program is just one step closer to that reality.

Yo Ripples....could you (or any other in the know) please post a link to some credible data on the PS Steelhead decline...I think I was living under a rock when the latest report came out...thank you in advance.

so todd, would you compare the broodstock programs success with the success of your business, low spoon escapement lack of stamping habitat ? Considering your lack of time in the sol duc each year how do you figure you have so much knowledge of the success of the snider program. i will listen much harder to the folks i know who spend nearly everyday on that river each winter, glad to hear the program will be moving and not just going away completely, great work bob and all the other locals that keep the wheels greased.

absolutely ridicuous, especially with the concentrated efforts now brought on by the closure of other systems.

Moravec -
The following is from the 2007 Federal Register on NMFS final detemination on the ESA listing of Puget Sound Steelhead. There is lots info if you want to spend a little time with one of the search engines.


"We concluded that the principal factor for decline for Puget Sound steelhead is the present or threatened destruction, modification, or curtailment of its habitat or range. Barriers to fish passage and adverse effects on water quality and quantity resulting from dams, the loss of wetland and riparian habitats, and agricultural and urban development activities have contributed and continue to contribute to the loss and degradation of steelhead habitats in Puget Sound. We observed that previous harvest management practices likely contributed to the historical decline of Puget Sound steelhead, but concluded that the elimination of the direct harvest of wild steelhead in the mid 1990s has largely addressed this threat."

Tight lines
Curt

All I see is harvest and engines. I must be color blind

Did it on the Puyallup/Carbon with success, with it peaking in 84/85. Protests abrubtly ended the program and the numbers dropped significantly right away. As far as the Sol Duc program I heard it is going just move over to the Bogy.

Many of the posts in this thread could make a person think this subject has never been discussed here before. But it has, and exhaustively.

No one knows if the Snider Creek broodstock program is positive, neutral, or negative. The reason is because it has never been monitored for its effectiveness. Programs that have been monitored for effectiveness consistently show an overall lack of effectiveness.

Those who suggest saturating the Puget Sound rivers with hatchery steelhead smolts haven't been paying attention. The rivers continue to be stocked with large numbers of smolts, although not as many as during the peak hatchery stocking years. Stocking more hatchery smolts at this time would be an example of throwing good money after bad because the damn things don't survive and return as adults at a rate high enough to justify the cost. Some one posted a link to a very, very old article about the Skagit's Barnaby Slough hatchery steelhead program when it first began in the early 1960s. What that article ommitted because the writer didn't know, and even the old WDG didn't know, is that while they expected 15,000 adult steelhead to return from the 150,000 smolts (10% return!), that high a return rate likely never, repeat never, occurred. Monitoring was never adequate to establish that as fact. The whole 10% steelhead smolt to adult survival rate was based on a one-time case in the Green River during a period where smolt survival rates were exceptionally high. I say exceptionally because these rates have never been documented again. Presently, PS hatchery steelhead smolt survival rates are less than 1%, which unfortunately makes every PS hatchery steelhead program a waste of our money. But it's also the only way to have hatchery fish around in the future is early marine survival rates and ocean survival rates increase to a viable level.

Regarding the SF Sky, the trap and haul operation occurs in the summer and fall only. So wild summer steelhead are transferred upstream, but not winter steelhead.

Sg

I'd be happier with actual monitoring...I don't really care what the answer is, so long as there is an actual measurable answer as to whether or not the program works or not.

Lacking that, I'll go with what every other broodstock program that has been monitored shows...they don't work.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. Program isn't really "stopped"...it's moved over to the Bogachiel since the formation of a wild gene bank in the Sol Duc was the most feasible location due to the lack of massive hatchery plants.

I wonder if there will be any monitoring or any management of the program on the Bogachiel beyond "we tube 'em, spawn 'em, catch 'em...it works!"...

Fish on...

Todd

Chuck S.,

For starters I'd deal with factual information instead of visceral, like your contention that ". . . commercials are being allowed to whore it out . . ." when I know you're regular enough here to be aware that reliable information indicates that PS wild steelhead populations are not even close to being limited by harvest, either commercial or sport. You're too regular here to be writing stupid stuff like that unless it is your intention to appear to be as stupid as what you write. I and others have posted repeatedly that early marine survival is limiting PS steelhead returns, both hatchery and wild. With a condition like that, you cannot will or spend your way to recovery.

If I could influence action I'd like to see a lot more research going into identifying the factor or factors limiting PS early marine survival. It only takes juvenile steelhead a couple weeks to move through the area, and up to 80% of the tagged smolts aren't pinging the receivers. A far larger number of tagged smolts need to be released, and more receivers might also be needed to verify that the smolts actually are not making it out of PS and through the Strait. But that is what the limited data currently tell us.

I don't know what you're talking about regarding issues being declined. It appears you wrote some gibberish that needs cleaning up to be comprehensible. Just because the average Joe wants to fish doesn't mean that fish will be there. If all PS steelhead runs are limited by factors that WDFW cannot control, or has even identified at this point, what are they supposed to do? Leave PS rivers open so the average Joe can over-harvest hatchery fish so that even hatchery runs don't meet escapement? And over-harvest wild runs that already aren't meeting escapement? You have to play not only the cards you're dealt, but with the deck you have. Redefining the deck is not an option on the menu although your posts suggests otherwise.

And yes, WDFW has runsize and escapement estimates of wild winter steelhead runs in most of the major PS river systems. None are meeting escapement, and most are way below.

As for Snyder, success and failure depend a lot on the definitiions used. It's apparent that biologists and fishermen are not using the same definition.

Stam,

Good question. I also read that Snyder is being moved to the Bogie, but I don't know what that means. Does it mean that early Bogie wild steelhead will be captured as native broodstock and cultured? And where will they be cultured? And where will the smolts be released? And, is monitoring for effectiveness of the program on anyone's agenda? I'm not necessarily against the program, but I wouldn't spend any of my money without monitoring to document what I was getting for my investment.

Sg