You know just every now and then you hit it right on FP. Take a bow on that one as the next line in the play is we are going to " restore " habitat and all is well.

People in our modern society and Salmonids are simply not compatible. Say what stage is denial in things?

If the marine survival issue can be figured out then I am sure the runs can eventually be restored. I'm not sure how sensitive steelhead arfe but the potomac river is far more overpopulated and polluted than the Puget Sound rivers. Yet it still hosts runs of stripers.

Sg said 80% off the fish are pinging receivers. They are out of the river. If they were not making it out of the river and dying in the streams then maybe its an issue. But the issue at hand is getting them to where they can feed and survive in the salt.

Look at out this way. If the ball park of 10 percent ( round number eventhough its been said it isn't an accurate number) return and streams like the carbon can get a double in production, then escapement is met. Another case is the Nisqually which has a dismal redd count, most of the river runs thru sparsely populated areas and is by far one of the lowest return rivers in the south sound.

So its not over population or habitat that limits it, in my opinion. Its as many say, the marine survival. Regardless of the hospital (stream) these fish are born in they all go to the same nursery which leads to death for many.

For your get up and move theory. Look at it this way. You have a construction site with 25 employees, taco bell across the street, one porta shtter, and a 4 month project. The porta shtter becomes nasty, contaminated, and hazardous to health. The fourth month passes and the project is completed and the crew departs. The shtter remains and over time gets no better despite the lack of human presence. But if the problem/conditions are found and reported, it can be made sanitary. Thus the need to identify the marine survival issue and remedy it.

It cannot be denied that we see good results as far as returns with the Snider creek program. This year has been another year of trophy sized Brood stock. I have read the Hood River studies, and other data on the subject. I dont think uou can take results from totally different watersheds and form a base line for Snider Brood success. We are seeing better and better fishing with many unmarked fish in December. A few of the old timers in the OPGA claim these fish were not present in the numbers we have now, 40- 50 years ago. We have talked with the tribes and the state, unfortunately most of the data is from the tribes. As OPGA members, we keep tally on how many Snider encounters we have in a season. I bet our average is 15 per guide, with many catching over 100 in a season. The tribes data may show a dozen or so. So what gives? Are we more effective than 15 gill, and drift nets? Or is a hatchery marked fish not suitable for market? And thus not factored in to daily catch? Or is the fishery tech or fisherman not looking for our left ventral clip? Or have the Broodstock developed gill net locating sonar? I don't get it. Contrary to thought, we are not looking to capture the largest of steelhead for the program. I think the larger fish I have tubed were in the 14 lb range. I want to say it is 30 hens and 15 bucks. A very low mortality rate, unless you factor in a fish kill for suspect Virus.

Or are the gillnetters actually not reporting their catch!!!PEACE

It seems like the Tribe isn't actively looking for the ventral clip. That explains a lot. But that isn't all that's missing if effective monitoring of the program were the goal. That the OPGA are tallying their catch of Snyder fish is good, but as far as it goes, it's in the category of anecdotal information, still falling short of monitoring for program effectiveness. I don't hear anything about how many of the Snyder fish are escaping to spawn naturally or what their geographic distribution is. And the follow up to that knowledge would be tissue sampling for genetic analysis and a comparison of spawning success. Then it wouldn't be necessary to refer to the Hood River studies.

Sg

We've asked the state for this very data SG ... they can provide nothing other than some basic run reconstruction based on what we know to be bogus harvest data.

Why does the Duc now have the most Dec / Jan wild fish in the system and why do Snider fish seem to mimic their wild counterparts in terms of physical characteristics and age classes than some of other programs?? No one seems to know from any agency ... so I think it was a mistake not to perhaps take the opportunity to follow up and study things further, and the OPGA even offered to work on outside funding for those very things.

It is a rare Snider return that falls in to typical hatchery brat status. We found one Monday 37x18 buck, I would bet you could not see a difference with a wild fish, other than ventral clip. The thing that gets me is that the opinions of the wdfw have no data or fact that is conclusive. They are using data from biologists that would rather not see the program, or are being financially persuaded by their employers to not see it. Sorting and monitoring for a left ventral clip is not a hard task. Is it possible that a tribal biologist for the Quileutes is not aware of our marking program? Maybe, if he or she is a scientist worth the ink they have ingested, they know what swims up the rivers that they focus on.

Just one more reason to get the State out of Fisheries Management. Even when they have a good thing going, they have to screw with it until they can take credit for any good and deny responsibility for it when it craps out.

Bob,

Since the decision is to move the program rather than discontinue it, I agree that it makes more sense to continue it in place with a commitment to monitoring so that some of the speculation can be replaced with factual information. Mimicking the diversity of the wild run seems like a good thing and different from some other wild broodstock program returns. The anecdotal information leans toward intelligent tinkering. The Vedder River broodstock program has persisted more than 30 years now. If it were going to weaken the native run, there should be some indication by now. But like the Snyder Creek program, there has been little to no attempt to measure potential adverse affects.

Gilly,

The Tribe and their staff are probably aware of the Snyder marks, but they may not have a reason to care and therefore don't bother to sample for them.

Sg

My dad says "they managed them till they were gone"

News Release should be out some time today...

************

Sol Duc wild steelhead management zone established;
Snider Creek program to end

OLYMPIA - The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) has announced it will end a hatchery steelhead program at Snider Creek next year to establish a wild steelhead management zone in the Sol Duc River.

After next spring, no hatchery steelhead will be released into the Sol Duc River, which will be the first wild steelhead management zone formally established in the state under the department's Statewide Steelhead Management Plan, said Ron Warren, regional fish program manager for WDFW. Snider Creek is a tributary to the Sol Duc River in Clallam County.

Wild management zones, also known as wild stock gene banks, are designed to preserve key populations of wild fish by minimizing interactions with hatchery-produced fish, said Warren. Research has shown that hatchery fish are often less genetically diverse and can impact wild stocks through interbreeding or competition for food or habitat.

WDFW is also looking to identify other streams that could be candidates for wild management zones, said Warren. That effort includes working with an advisory group to identify specific streams in the Puget Sound region.

"Establishing wild management zones is part of a broad effort aimed at modifying our hatchery programs to be compatible with conservation and recovery of naturally spawning salmon and steelhead populations," Warren said. "Shifting hatchery steelhead production away from the Sol Duc River - where we have one of the largest wild steelhead populations in the state - is an important step in that effort."

Changes designed to support naturally spawning salmon and steelhead populations are driven by plans and policies adopted by the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission, such as the Statewide Steelhead Management Plan and the Hatchery and Fishery Reform policy, Warren said.

The Statewide Steelhead Management Plan is available on the department's website at http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/fisheries/steelhead/ , while the commission's hatchery and fishery reform policy is available at http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/policies/c3619.html .

While the hatchery program will no longer take place at Snider Creek, WDFW is working with stakeholders to re-establish a similar effort in the Bogachiel or Calawah rivers, where the department already releases hatchery steelhead, said Warren.

The program will end next spring, when 25,000 winter steelhead smolts are released into the Sol Duc River, Warren said. Last year, WDFW also discontinued its summer steelhead program on the Sol Duc River, after releasing 20,000 smolts.

Before making that decision, WDFW conducted three public meetings and reviewed about 400 public comments on the future of the Snider Creek program.

While fewer and fewer hatchery steelhead will be returning to the Sol Duc River in the coming years, anglers will continue to have opportunities to fish for salmon and other game fish, as well as retain one wild steelhead per license year on the river, said Warren.

The Snider Creek program was created in 1986 as a joint project with the Olympic Peninsula Guides' Association to increase fishing opportunities for steelhead on the Sol Duc River. The program is unlike most other hatchery efforts in that it produces offspring from wild steelhead rather than hatchery fish.

*************

Fish on...

Todd

Now that the Snider Creek hatchery is going to be closed and in order to protect the natives, I hope they close the Sol Duc to all steelhead fishing when the native run starts. A dead native is a dead native. Doesn't matter if it was intentionally bonked, or dies from stress after being caught and released. If the intent is to really protect the natives, shut it down.

Don't count on it. The "if we can't kill it, we shouldn't fish for it at all" mentality went out with Breezer's jackets and Depeche Mode.

Fish on...

Todd

So if the idea is to protect wild fish, we pull the program from the duc, and put it

That's what U think, still have dozens of their songs on MP3 player and usually get at least one daily in the rig ...

Dozens?!...who knew, Bob? Who knew!?

...a cover for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkuSRJrVlMs

They still get some air time on xm radio too.