It might not be as bad as expected, alot of the fish being targeted will be fish that would have been caught in outside commercial fisheries so the extra fish going to lower river commercial are coming from somewhere besides sport quota. I don't think they can just cut the corrisponding hatchery releases because of the kwhale issue. The monster run expected this fall should be a good example with alot of fish returning to lower river hatcheries including Bonneville Pool which I believe is just below the dam..The Feds are just following HSRG, not exactly sure what function CCA has in all of this other than trying to take credit for something that was already happening anyway and maybe grab some saved impacts for big energy projects. Thats were Redden usually steps in..

if you cant have a meeting and explain how the commercials taking more fish will make sportfishing better just say so, dont carry on and wonder off to another topic.

Why don't you have a meeting and explain your position!

Todd- your first post was palatable and deserved the same respect back, your second post was a perfect example of why I posted what I did.


Gillnets our of ALL Washington waters.

Fishy

Sorry you feel that way...but, at the risk of hurting your feelings more, eighth grade algebra is actually harder than this concept...there is a finite amount of fish to harvest, the tribal share will not change, the non-tribal commercial share will go up, and ours will go down, and sportfishing will not improve...and to add insult to injury, not one ESA Chinook will be saved, and virtually nothing will change on the spawning grounds.

If folks would be less wedded to supporting something at all costs because of who told you that you should, and instead spend a bit of time looking at it before deciding if it's a good idea...or, barring that, once they are shown that it is a bad idea change their mind about it (nothing wrong with that), then this conversation wouldn't come up over and over again.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is misinformed, lying, or has failed to learn about or understand even the most rudiementiary processes by which LCR fisheries are conducted.

I doubt anyone on the sportfishing side is lying...I think they actually believe that 4-3=3 on this one...because they have been misinformed, or don't understand how fisheries work.

That's just being ignorant, and no one can be blamed for that...we're all ignorant of things before we get a chance to learn about them.

However, when you have been shown...repeatedly...the things that should inform you, and you put your head in the sand and go "lahlahalahlah...CCA!!!"...well, that's when it goes from being understandable ignorance to wilful misinformation.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. "Catch sharing" is between the tribes, and the non-tribal fishers (all of us, commercial and sporties), and is designed to make sure the tribal fishers get their share...and, as stated a few hundred times before, when the tribal share stays the same, and the commercial share goes up...ours goes down, along with our fishing.

my position is one of common sence, when the commercials go full fleet with the new methods and catch more fish sportfishing will suffer because common sence should tell you that sport fishing over more fish equals better sportfishing, if that wasnt true for example why isnt the 1st week at bouy 10 as packed with anglers as the third week ??, could it be that there are more fish in the river durring the 3rd week and that makes for better fishing ??, we soon are not going to have that and people are going to be asking what happened to the good fishing we used to have and a few of us are going to say "i told you so"

Todd, I have come to expect nothing less from you and don't take much of what you say seriously.
I neither blindly follow nor listen to self aggrandizing pontificate-rs that say they have all the answers.

I have said all along my only goal is to get ALL gillnets out of Washington state waters. Washington is far larger than the Columbia river and if the big c has to take a hit to rid this state of the disastrous commercial gill-netting then so be it. I am not saying that this will or will not happen, just that its of little consequence to me, seeing as we have sacrificed so much already.

We have paid dearly in Puget Sound and need to make a stand.
If you have the grand solution I am sure there would be standing room only, so pick your date and time and post it here.Given the right circumstances I may even make time to attend,maybe.

Gillnets our of ALL Washington waters.


Fishy

So when and where is your meeting to explain your plan? Time and place posted here so that we can get some interested parties to attend.

I'll wait for the venue date and time.

Gillnets out of ALL Washington waters.


Fishy

ya lost me there, sports have givin up enough and we dont need to give up anymore.

I want all gillnets out of Washington waters, too...but I don't want to give the commercial guys another tool, one that will kill more hatchery fish, and just as many ESA fish...it makes no sense whatsoever.

My plan is to get the non-tribal commercial guys out of the LCR altogether, not help them make a better living at being there, especially at the expense of sportfishing and sportfishing dollars.

Here's where the old adage comes in about knowing the difference between interests and positions.

I have this as my "interest"...to save more ESA fish, and have better sportfishing.

Any "position" I take will be in furtherance of those interests, and if my "position" fails to serve them, or acts to their detriment, then I will change my position. My position is not my interest...my position is the tool I will use to further my interest.

If your "interest" is to get gillnets out, then you are serving that interest.

If your "interest" is to save fish and have better fishing, then your position is worthless towards that interest.

People get so wedded to their position that their interest and position become as one, and the original and laudable interest gets relegated to the dustbin.

That's what's happened with this whole LCR purse seine bullchit.

A bunch of folks had a common interest...to put more ESA fish on the spawning grounds, and to improve sportfishing.

Excellent...we're all on the same page here.

Then they came up with a great idea...let's get gillnets out of the LCR!

Also excellent...we're all still on the same page here...gillnets kill ESA fish, and hurt sportfishing, so getting rid of them will help ESA fish and sportfishing.

Next part of the plan...let's have the commercial guys fish more selectively so that they can kill less ESA fish!

This is a position...a tool used to serve the interest of more ESA fish spawning, and better sportfishing.

The problem is that this position doesn't serve those interests. It results in the same amount of ESA fish dying, and sportfishing will suffer because of it.

Those who came up with this idea had a laudable goal...the problem is that they didn't know how LCR fisheries work, or do the math regarding the spawners or the hatchery fish being harvested.

Their "position" does not serve their "interest" any more.

This is usually not a problem, as those who are goal-oriented (i.e., wish to serve their interests first) will easily ditch a position that no longer helps them achieve their goal...

However, in this case, it has become a huge problem...the problem is that there is a large group of CCA supporters who feel that whatever the CCA says or does is 100% the best thing ever, all the time, no matter what, and that those who disagree are gillnet lovers, bigots, or tribal fishermen.

They have become so emotionally entrenched with their position that they have replaced their interest (better for fish and fishing) with their position (selective fishing on the LCR)...no matter how easy it is to see that their original interest is not being served, no matter how many people with greater knowledge and experience tell them, and show them that their original interest will not be served...they don't care.

It's the CCA and Selective Fishing on the LCR, 24/7, do it or die.

It has blinded them to reality, and rather than ever question the CCA or the efficacy of this position, they attack and question everyone and everything that doesn't support their position...they adopt victimhood as their rallying cry, and martyr themselves on the altar of the purse seine.

For those who haven't drank the Kool-Aid and climbed up on that cross, it's pretty disenheartening to see so many obviously passionate people completely and utterly bamboozled by themselves...they've been told, and have told the lie so many times that they have actually come to believe it with a Faith that would make the average jihadist look like a piker.

Unfortunately it looks like there is no way to reverse this self-brainwashing, and that the end game is to either beat them back and let them wallow in self-pity and martyrdom, or watch them steam off into the coming storm...

And tell them "I told you so" when it is all over.

Either way, they're screwed...and they'll find someone else to blame it on, someone else to call names.

I've come to the conclusion that waiting to say "I told you so" while continuing to fight my own fight (all the non-tribal commercials out of the LCR completely) is the best way to go about it...hell, they and the CCA can have all the credit for that, too, when it happens...I could care less, I just want to see them gone and see the Columbia River return to what it used to be, the salmon and steelhead capital of the world.

I don't need a "win list" to wave like a banner in front of an army...I just want better fishing.

Fish on...

Todd

Good explanation on the difference between interests and positions Todd. I use that often, and it's amazing that a lot of people don't get it.

Sg

I'm staying out of this one, but I am seeing a trend.

What are you, a gillnet lover?

For advanced reading, those who are interested in the difference between an interest and a position, Google up "backfire effect" and read up on how that works, too...essentially it describes the tipping point where people who are in the midst of confusing their interest and their position...for many, when they hear the facts that might cause them to question the ability of their position to further their interest, they dig in with a religious fervor, holding onto their position like a life rope, rather than changing their position in favor of their interest.

It's an interesting psychological manifestation whereby people who are afraid, unwilling, or flat out unable to change their position in order to further their interest abandon their interest and really, really dig in to protect their faith in their position.

And yes, there actually is a whole area of psychological study on this issue...and the LCR selective fishing/CCA Kool-Aid situation would make a perfect case study for it.

Fish on...

Todd

Just don't say we didn't warn ya...

Fish on...

Todd

Word.

My interest is to get ALL gillnets out of Washington waters. That is why I support CCA's position on this. No grey area there.

I have tried on numerous occasions to have a civil discussion that can be spirited while each maintaining our credibility and have had to defend myself from attacks far too many times to count.


Please don't keep us in suspense, let us know what your proposal is to get the non-tribal commercials out of the LCR.

Gillnets out of ALL Washington waters.


Fishy

"Please don't keep us in suspense, let us know what your proposal is to get the non-tribal commercials out of the LCR."


Not to worry Tribes are slowly reclaiming the lower Columbia.



Adopted the following fishing season during the time and days per week, area, and gear in accordance with the Memorandum of Agreements/Understandings specific to each tribe.
Season:
6 AM Thursday June 16, 2011 and until further notice.
Area:
Downstream of Bonneville Dam.
Gear:
Hook-and-line.
Allowable Sales:
Salmon, steelhead, walleye, shad, yellow perch, bass, catfish, and carp may be sold or retained for subsistence purposes.
Sturgeon may not be retained.
Fish may not be sold on USACE Property below Bonneville Dam, but may be caught and transported off USACE Property for sale.

WOW, that is disturbing on so many levels.

Fishy

LOL?

whats your opinion on this matter ?

whats your plan ? , do you think that getting gillnets out and replacing them with purse seiners is getting commercial fishing out of the LCR ??, seems like you do.