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#716393 - 11/07/11 03:13 PM Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Curious to see how this will work out.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111104/LIFE/111040310/-1/NEWSMAP


Fishing-rule changes will target 'flossing'

Sneaky snagging technique will get a close look by ODFW

November 04, 2011

By Mark Freeman

Mail Tribune

A subset of upper Rogue River bank anglers sound like they are taking the advice of their dentists as they ply their latest version of illegal and unethical fishing techniques when chasing tough-to-catch spring chinook salmon.

The trick is known as "flossing," a form of snagging that tries to look and sound legal even though it is no better than trying to ram a treble hook into a chinook's tail and haul it in backward.

With a leader as long as their body dangling behind a tear-drop sinker, the flosser casts into the river. As the line sinks and swings through a hole, the flosser's hope is that a chinook swimming with its mouth open will find the line slipping across its jaws.

After a few long tugs or even a run backwards up the bank, the angler slides the line through the chinook's teeth like a piece of mint-flavored Glide until the hook rips into its jaw and it's fish-on — even though the fish never "bit" the hook.

"They say, 'I'm just trying to get it off the bottom,' or 'I'm just doing what everybody else does,' " says Senior Trooper Jim Collom of the Oregon State Police Fish and Wildlife Division. "But we know what they're doing."

You will hear a lot about what these flossers are doing on the upper Rogue and elsewhere on Oregon rivers over the next nine months when the angling community embarks on a new dialogue about snagging techniques and how to ban them effectively without handcuffing legit anglers.

The Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife is about to launch a public process aimed at revising state fishing regulations, something the agency does every four years. And ways to curtail flossing and other snagging techniques will dominate the discussion.

Agency biologists will solicit suggestions from anglers on rules that should changed beginning in 2013, including how to curb snagging statewide and at local problem areas, such as the upper Rogue River's infamous Hatchery Hole along the Cole Rivers Hatchery dike.

Other problem areas include rivers along the north coast, including upper and lower stretches of the Willamette River, says Rhine Messmer, the ODFW's recreational fisheries program manager who heads the angling regulations review process.

Agency biologists plan to develop a more detailed briefing document on the snagging problem during the upcoming public process, outlining how pervasive it is, what anti-snagging measures have been tried in the past and what any new proposals entail, along with the rationale behind them, Messmer says.

One of the possible rule change floated by the OSP is changing the legal fishing hours from one hour before and after sunset to just 30 minutes before and after sunset — the same as legal shooting hours for hunters.

Collom says that first 30 minutes of fishing time can be so dark it's next to impossible to see who is legally hooking fish and who is snagging.

More fish get carried out of the upper Rogue's Hatchery Hole during the first 30 minutes than any half-hour block on any given day, Collom says.

"But when we're there working, and they know we're working, there are a heck of a lot fewer fish kept," Collom says. "What's that telling you?"

But a change like that also speaks to the issue of over-regulating the vast majority of legitimate anglers to put the thumb-screws on a small minority of cheaters.

Cutting a half-hour off each end of the fishing day could hurt, for instance, fly-fishers banking on a good dusk insect hatch or honest spring chinook fishers using Kwikfish lures or back-bouncing roe before first light.

Messmer says ODFW does not yet have a position on a change in fishing hours.

Agency biologists also don't quite know what to do about the flossers.

It gets at the heart of the angling equivalent of hunters' fair chase. To catch a fish in Oregon, you need to entice it to bite a hook. Trick its little brain with a bunch of feathers that look like a real fly. Con it into biting a gob of roe with a hook hidden in it. Or piss it off by swimming a big, fat plug in front of its grill hoping the chinook snaps at it out of fear, or spite.

That way, at least the fish takes an active role in its immediate future.

For decades, people illegally have yanked big hooks through salmon holes hoping to latch onto a back or tail by which to yard it in. That's cut-and-dried poaching that's easy to identify and hard to ignore.

Flossing might seem a bit more gentrified, but it's no different.

Most flossers end up hooking salmon on the outside of their mouths. Those are just as illegal to keep as chinook reeled in sideways with a hook near its dorsal fin or backward with a hook in its tail.

Only fish hooked on the inside of the mouth can legally be kept.

That goes the same for flossers using monofilament, lead and hooks or the fly-fishing flossers stripping a fly line over the gums of open-mouthed salmon.

While the occasional flosser gets a hook jammed in the inside of a chinook's gum line, the intent is nefarious.

In fact, some Hatchery Hole flossers no longer even bother to put a bead, corkie or other attractant on their hooks. They're casting and retrieving bare hooks.

Not even a tiny piece of yarn to pretend their intent is legit.

"I ask them, 'Do you really think you're trying to get them to bite just the hook?' " Collom says. "Really?"

Reach reporter Mark Freeman at 541-776-4470, or email mfreeman@mailtribune.com.

****************

Fish on...

Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#716394 - 11/07/11 03:14 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Todd]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
And...of course, the only way to outlaw it will be to outlaw a lot of other legal and ethical behavior.

Thanks, snaggers, for ruining it for the real fishermen, yet again.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#716411 - 11/07/11 03:55 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Todd]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1604
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
I strongly agree with the efforts to reduce this type of fishing.

However, in my view, outright snagging is more of a problem. That is the type of "fishing" that involves black corkies, 8/0 hooks, heavy pencil lead weight, and a hook-set that could ram a marshmallow thru an oak door. In fact, I can hear a snagger's hookset a 100 yards away. We've all seen it. We've all reacted in disgust, not only at the practice but also because it ruins the fishing for the rest of us.

If anyone wants to see it in action, on lage scale, just visit the North Fork Lewis Rv by the hatchery, or the Kalama River by the R/V Park. Or, insert your local hatchery terminal area. It happens in alot of places.

Flossing is a problem, but it's fairly modest compared to the blatantly illegal snagging that occurs every fall in SW Washington.

Sorry for the rant. I know: It's not a new issue......

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#716415 - 11/07/11 04:02 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: ]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7961
Loc: Vancouver, WA
At least it's good that this cheating technique is on the front burner.
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK

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#716416 - 11/07/11 04:03 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: cohoangler]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Flossing is snagging, it's all the same...and has the same result of ruining it for real fishermen.

Fish on...

Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#716417 - 11/07/11 04:06 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Todd]
big moby Offline
Carcass

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2150
Loc: varies
I wonder what Jim Teeny has to say about this?
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Roger That

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#716419 - 11/07/11 04:07 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: cohoangler]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7961
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: cohoangler

Flossing is a problem, but it's fairly modest compared to the blatantly illegal snagging that occurs every fall in SW Washington.

I disagree with this because flossing can be done right under the noses of the public undetected unless they know what to look for.
It's more pervasive than you think and hard to police.

Overt, conventional snagging is easy to spot and police.
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK

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#716425 - 11/07/11 04:55 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Direct-Drive]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4450
Loc: B'ham
Most people in Oregon appear to have given up flossing a long time ago. Now, if we can only get the fishermen to join them.

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#716426 - 11/07/11 05:04 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
big moby Offline
Carcass

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2150
Loc: varies
HaHa................ are you sure you are not talking about Longview or Amboy?
_________________________
Roger That

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#716429 - 11/07/11 05:34 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: big moby]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Pretty tough to enforce an anti-flossing rule without stepping all over legitimate methods, since flossing is the presentation more than the gear.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#716435 - 11/07/11 05:57 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Dan S.]
Nor Cal Drifter Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 730
Loc: Sacramento, CA
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Pretty tough to enforce an anti-flossing rule without stepping all over legitimate methods, since flossing is the presentation more than the gear.


+1
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"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it."

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#716438 - 11/07/11 06:01 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Dan S.]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Pretty tough to enforce an anti-flossing rule without stepping all over legitimate methods, since flossing is the presentation more than the gear.


I agree, and that's the shittiest part...fishermen who can't catch fish legitimately ruining it for the rest of us, there's no way to make a rule that would work without outlawing legit means that legit fishermen use.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#716447 - 11/07/11 06:34 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Todd]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13702
How about a regulation that is specific to select terminal areas? For instance:

Skokomish River, Aug. 1 - Oct. 31, Hwy 101 downstream to mouth, maximum leader length between weight and hook = 24".

That shouldn't affect legitimate drift fishing, spinners, spoons, jigs with or without a bobber.

The only legitimate fishing method that might be adversely affected that I can think of is fly fishing, in which case a reasonable exception might be floating line and unweighted fly, and then a standared 9 or 10' leader wouldn't lend itself to flossing.

Sg

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#716450 - 11/07/11 06:39 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: big moby]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3360
Rather than jeopardize our ability to use legitimate methods that employ similar setups to those used to floss fish, why not just legalize snagging (including flossing) in places called "The Hatchery Hole," for example? The name of the location implies that there will be a lot of hatchery fish stacked in there, presumably mixed in with some (but not many) wild fish. Once the nearby hatchery has reached its escapement goal, only bad things will happen with the fish left swimming in that hole: some may move upstream and spawn with the wild fish, and others will simply go to waste (not entirely - nutrients are a good thing), causing managers to think that they need to allow more commercial fishing opportunities on that stock the next year. Instead, why not let the guys who either don't think salmon will bite or who don't care and will do whatever it takes to get some meat have at 'em, no holds barred (or no hooks barbless, perhaps?)? Those "fisheries" would attract the snagging/flossing contingent, leaving the rest of the rivers for those of us who believe that fish need to be tricked into biting.

I'm sure there are big problems with this thinking, but it seems to me that it would benefit sport fishers and wild fish alike. Proposed benefits might include:
  • Reduced hatchery overescapement
  • Reduced mixing of hatchery/wild spawners
  • Reduced risk of snagging/etc. in other locations (and better fishing conditions for legitimate anglers as a result)
  • Better rule enforcement in other locations to discourage poaching, for example (as a result of decreased monitoring of the free for all fisheries)
  • More happy people (snaggers and legitimate anglers alike).

If, as eyeFISH, a man who single-handedly (if with two hooks) transcends the boundaries between legitimate anglers and flossers to achieve the best of both worlds with his hangback rigs, tells us, "All hatchery fish must die," flossing (and even outright snagging) may have its time and place after all.

Contrary to all appearances, this post is approximately halfway serious.

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#716453 - 11/07/11 06:43 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Salmo g.]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
That would eliminate side drifting from your boat, even though the moving boat precludes the 4-5 foot leader from flossing since the leader isn't sweeping across the river bottom, it's going downstream in a straight line. It's the low rod tip and retrieve that makes that same 4-5 foot leader a flossing rig.

It's only a flossing rig in the hands of a flosser.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#716455 - 11/07/11 06:48 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Dan S.]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
That would eliminate side drifting from your boat, even though the moving boat precludes the 4-5 foot leader from flossing since the leader isn't sweeping across the river bottom, it's going downstream in a straight line. It's the low rod tip and retrieve that makes that same 4-5 foot leader a flossing rig.

It's only a flossing rig in the hands of a flosser.


Yup...and as long as we tolerate flossers and their apologists, then this is where we'll be. There are too many dudes out there that either can't legitimately catch a fish, or can construe a dozen justifications for why they should be able to be a snagger...

Thank them when we lose legitmate ways of fishing because they won't stop using them to be snaggers.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#716466 - 11/07/11 07:15 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: ]
Cbp1888 Offline
Egg

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 3
I hope Washington State follows. I fished the humptulips 3 times this year and it was troubling the number of flossers there were.

I noticed every Flosser was using 6+ leaders. A limit on leader length and hook size would be a good start.

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#716477 - 11/07/11 08:04 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Cbp1888]
Jason Beezuz Offline
My Waders are Moist

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3419
Loc: PNW
Does this law effect butt-flossing as seen in Todd's avatar?
_________________________
Maybe he's born with it.

Maybe it's amphetamines.

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#716480 - 11/07/11 08:07 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Jason Beezuz]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I sure hope not...that's the kind of flossing we can all...ahem...get behind.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#716484 - 11/07/11 08:13 PM Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon [Re: Todd]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
Oregon just needs to go back to the 20 salmon limit a year like it used to be. Plenty of other kinds of fish to catch and 90% of license buyers wouldn't know the difference.
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