Its not about upsetting anyone, its about facing the tribes and getting squashed by opposition when EVERY OTHER tribe in Washington backs Elwah, financially and otherwise. The tribes look out for each other when it matters most, and these agencies have their heads up their asses and tails between their legs thinking they can get around the powers that be by attacking "representatives" of the tribe rather than the tribe itself.

The bio's are just doing their job and following the protocols and orders of their employer (the tribe). Therefore, any suit should be filed against the EMPLOYER, not the EMPLOYEE.

WFC is acting like a chicken sh!t little school kid bullying the little guy.

Believe me, the bio's don't "know" that its just part of the job, they are pissed to the high heavens just as the should be. WFC and other organizations are losing funding and support across the board from tribes due to their poor behavior. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, they are willing to cut ties with every tribe in the state over this. And we all know who has the funding, manpower, and infrastructure for fisheries work in our state; that's right, the tribes.

Stupid, stupid move.

How about leaving our goddamn hands out of the pie, just once, and let nature shows us what she can do.

Been awhile since we let that happen and I think over time, we humans have conditioned ourselves to believe we can do better.

We always were slow learners.

Don't worry......none of the above will happen. There will be lots of hatchery "turds" to breed with the natives......like there are any.

Seriously bro, just spit it out and quit chokin on it... Sooner or later you're gonna get called from the closet...

Keith

Aunty,

It's pretty simple, I've preached it before and have been for a few years now. It's coming to an end... The writing's on the wall... It's being exposed, you are finally coming around to a "I think" part of your arguement...

Sad part is, the sportsman will lose...

Keith

GLU, like I said, the tribes have sovereign immunity, and cannot be sued, unless they waive their sovereign immunity. The WFC has to sue the individuals, they have no choice.

Again, not about upsetting anyone or not...it's the way it has to be done.

Fish on...

Todd

GodLovesUgly,

As Todd mentioned, there are procedural/legal reasons for suing individuals rather than the tribe as an entity, that have absolutely nothing to do with the hypothetical alternative motivation(s) you are putting forth.

The tribe will likely be paying for their defense. If not, then the notion that tribes will come to the rescue when others are sued on hatchery issues seems suspect.

Its all a cup and ball game they are playing here. They will sue the representatives, the tribe will back them and argue sovereign immunity, it will become a federal matter, and the fed will hear the argument and determine if it can even go to court.

They are wasting time and money AND losing support of WA tribes trying to take a shortcut that simply will get them nowhere.

Doesn't matter who they sue, if they want their day in court this will be a federal case..... and that's IF the fed decides that the tribe is acting outside of their sovereign rights, and without precedent it will likely fail; or go to federal supreme court.

All the while Elwha continues construction.

Not saying I advocate the installation of this hatchery, quite the contrary actually. I think it is an awful idea, and a leap in the wrong direction. My argument is that to get something of this magnitude seen through to fruition proper steps need to be taken to find the support needed and build a rock solid case BEFORE taking on the tribe (or its representatives for that matter) which these agencies have not done. Again, they are wasting money and time that could be spent elsewhere on pressing restoration efforts OR building a case to smash this thing down on a federal level. Instead of doing it RIGHT they have chosen to do it FAST, its going to be sloppy and blow up in their faces.

GLU.......I have a big rock in my yard, if you'd like to come over and chat with it......or beat on it......or yell at it.....whatever.

I'm glad that they have legal representation that thinks other than what you are espousing...because you are far from being correct.

Fish on...

Todd

GLU,

Of course it will be a federal case. They filed suit in federal court against federal agencies for violation of a federal law.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of "shortcuts."

Sovereign immunity is something the tribe could argue if it were sued. But it wasn't. There is something called "qualified immunity" that government employees can sometimes assert when acting in the scope of their duties, but I'm not sure how that applies to individual tribal officials.

You seem to have some very strong opinions on the proper legal strategy here, but I'm having a hard time understanding what they are based on.

Thanks for the reminder to send in my WSC check

One of the needs we have is to find out if ESA applies to the Tribes equally as it applies to the rest of society. The question ghas been batted about for decades; glad to see it rise to the surface.

There is a risk that the Courts will say that the Tribes rights are superior to ESA (and by extension, natural resources). At least we'll know, then.

CM -
There is little doubt that ESA applies to the tribes (the co-managers have to get take permits). However the rub has been and will continue to be that NMFS considers their federal responsibilities to preserve tribal fishing rights to have equal footing with their ESA responsibilities (two # 1 priorities if you will).

When pushed the Feds consistently opt to favor the tribal needs - look at the allowable ESA impacts on the upper Columbia where approximatley 80% of the impacts go to the tribes and the rest to the non-tribal fishers.

As you suggest might not be an issue many folks would want to push - if you can live with the potential answer don't ask the question.

Tight lines
Curt