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#740292 - 02/12/12 09:18 PM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: Todd]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1249
Loc: WaRshington
Originally Posted By: Todd
Nothing to do with "upsetting" anyone or not...tribes have what's called "sovereign immunity".

It's nothing personal, it's just business, and the bios know that.

Fish on...


Its not about upsetting anyone, its about facing the tribes and getting squashed by opposition when EVERY OTHER tribe in Washington backs Elwah, financially and otherwise. The tribes look out for each other when it matters most, and these agencies have their heads up their asses and tails between their legs thinking they can get around the powers that be by attacking "representatives" of the tribe rather than the tribe itself.

The bio's are just doing their job and following the protocols and orders of their employer (the tribe). Therefore, any suit should be filed against the EMPLOYER, not the EMPLOYEE.

WFC is acting like a chicken sh!t little school kid bullying the little guy.

Believe me, the bio's don't "know" that its just part of the job, they are pissed to the high heavens just as the should be. WFC and other organizations are losing funding and support across the board from tribes due to their poor behavior. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, they are willing to cut ties with every tribe in the state over this. And we all know who has the funding, manpower, and infrastructure for fisheries work in our state; that's right, the tribes.

Stupid, stupid move.
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#740303 - 02/12/12 10:01 PM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: ParaLeaks]
Eric Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3426
Quote:
Remote incubation sites?



How about leaving our goddamn hands out of the pie, just once, and let nature shows us what she can do.

Been awhile since we let that happen and I think over time, we humans have conditioned ourselves to believe we can do better.

We always were slow learners.

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#740323 - 02/12/12 10:57 PM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: ]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10363
Loc: Olypen
Originally Posted By: AuntyM
Originally Posted By: Eric
Quote:
Remote incubation sites?



How about leaving our goddamn hands out of the pie, just once, and let nature shows us what she can do.

Been awhile since we let that happen and I think over time, we humans have conditioned ourselves to believe we can do better.

We always were slow learners.


+1

Not to mention, the public (who is footing the bill for this) deserves to find out once and for all, if hatcheries are more of a problem than we've all been led to believe. I think they are and I think the feds and tribes don't want us to know the truth.


Don't worry......none of the above will happen. There will be lots of hatchery "turds" to breed with the natives......like there are any. rolleyes
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#740341 - 02/13/12 01:58 AM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: Fast and Furious]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6312
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Lead Bouncer
Originally Posted By: Keta


I just took a look at the CCA Washington site and didn't see one word about the Elwa. Why are they ignoring the biggest recovery project going at this point in time?


1. website is not updated on a regular basis
2. No guarantee they have the man power to take up the issue.
3. No proof that meetings have been held or not, regarding the issue.
4. They are/were involved in some matters, but little is reported such as cowlitz advisory group and the CR fee group, NoF. National had voted a membership increase. Put it off a year and later went back and renegotiated contracts etc, line by line and saved enough to dump a 10 dollar increase. Never wrote about it.
just sayn.


Seriously bro, just spit it out and quit chokin on it... Sooner or later you're gonna get called from the closet...

Keith
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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#740342 - 02/13/12 02:05 AM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: ]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6312
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: AuntyM
Originally Posted By: Eric
Quote:
Remote incubation sites?



How about leaving our goddamn hands out of the pie, just once, and let nature shows us what she can do.

Been awhile since we let that happen and I think over time, we humans have conditioned ourselves to believe we can do better.

We always were slow learners.


+1

Not to mention, the public (who is footing the bill for this) deserves to find out once and for all, if hatcheries are more of a problem than we've all been led to believe. I think they are and I think the feds and tribes don't want us to know the truth.


Aunty,

It's pretty simple, I've preached it before and have been for a few years now. It's coming to an end... The writing's on the wall... It's being exposed, you are finally coming around to a "I think" part of your arguement...

Sad part is, the sportsman will lose...

Keith
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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#740365 - 02/13/12 11:48 AM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: stlhdr1]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27839
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
GLU, like I said, the tribes have sovereign immunity, and cannot be sued, unless they waive their sovereign immunity. The WFC has to sue the individuals, they have no choice.

Again, not about upsetting anyone or not...it's the way it has to be done.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#740367 - 02/13/12 12:34 PM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: GodLovesUgly]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 764
Loc: Seattle, WA
GodLovesUgly,

As Todd mentioned, there are procedural/legal reasons for suing individuals rather than the tribe as an entity, that have absolutely nothing to do with the hypothetical alternative motivation(s) you are putting forth.

The tribe will likely be paying for their defense. If not, then the notion that tribes will come to the rescue when others are sued on hatchery issues seems suspect.

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#740477 - 02/13/12 10:06 PM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: ]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1249
Loc: WaRshington
Its all a cup and ball game they are playing here. They will sue the representatives, the tribe will back them and argue sovereign immunity, it will become a federal matter, and the fed will hear the argument and determine if it can even go to court.

They are wasting time and money AND losing support of WA tribes trying to take a shortcut that simply will get them nowhere.

Doesn't matter who they sue, if they want their day in court this will be a federal case..... and that's IF the fed decides that the tribe is acting outside of their sovereign rights, and without precedent it will likely fail; or go to federal supreme court.

All the while Elwha continues construction.

Not saying I advocate the installation of this hatchery, quite the contrary actually. I think it is an awful idea, and a leap in the wrong direction. My argument is that to get something of this magnitude seen through to fruition proper steps need to be taken to find the support needed and build a rock solid case BEFORE taking on the tribe (or its representatives for that matter) which these agencies have not done. Again, they are wasting money and time that could be spent elsewhere on pressing restoration efforts OR building a case to smash this thing down on a federal level. Instead of doing it RIGHT they have chosen to do it FAST, its going to be sloppy and blow up in their faces.



Edited by GodLovesUgly (02/13/12 10:11 PM)
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

Top
#740483 - 02/13/12 10:32 PM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: GodLovesUgly]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10363
Loc: Olypen
GLU.......I have a big rock in my yard, if you'd like to come over and chat with it......or beat on it......or yell at it.....whatever. wink
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#740499 - 02/14/12 12:36 AM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: ParaLeaks]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27839
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I'm glad that they have legal representation that thinks other than what you are espousing...because you are far from being correct.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#740511 - 02/14/12 01:48 AM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: GodLovesUgly]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 764
Loc: Seattle, WA
GLU,

Of course it will be a federal case. They filed suit in federal court against federal agencies for violation of a federal law.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of "shortcuts."

Sovereign immunity is something the tribe could argue if it were sued. But it wasn't. There is something called "qualified immunity" that government employees can sometimes assert when acting in the scope of their duties, but I'm not sure how that applies to individual tribal officials.

You seem to have some very strong opinions on the proper legal strategy here, but I'm having a hard time understanding what they are based on.

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#740519 - 02/14/12 06:51 AM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: GodLovesUgly]
BroodBuster Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 3091
Loc: Bothell, Wa
Thanks for the reminder to send in my WSC check smile
_________________________
"Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them." Ronald Reagan

"The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher.

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think." Adolf Hitler

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#740533 - 02/14/12 10:55 AM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: BroodBuster]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7719
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
One of the needs we have is to find out if ESA applies to the Tribes equally as it applies to the rest of society. The question ghas been batted about for decades; glad to see it rise to the surface.

There is a risk that the Courts will say that the Tribes rights are superior to ESA (and by extension, natural resources). At least we'll know, then.

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#740539 - 02/14/12 11:45 AM Re: Suit to stop hatchery plants in the Elwa [Re: Carcassman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2834
Loc: Marysville
CM -
There is little doubt that ESA applies to the tribes (the co-managers have to get take permits). However the rub has been and will continue to be that NMFS considers their federal responsibilities to preserve tribal fishing rights to have equal footing with their ESA responsibilities (two # 1 priorities if you will).

When pushed the Feds consistently opt to favor the tribal needs - look at the allowable ESA impacts on the upper Columbia where approximatley 80% of the impacts go to the tribes and the rest to the non-tribal fishers.

As you suggest might not be an issue many folks would want to push - if you can live with the potential answer don't ask the question.

Tight lines
Curt

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