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#751304 - 04/02/12 02:07 AM Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep
fish_4_all Offline
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Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 656
Loc: Grays Harbor
Well I think I have chosen a reel, now I need to think about a line to go with it. Gonna get a WF/F but I know I am going to need a sinker line to get down to Chinook in the deep holes.

Is a sinker line gonna be enough or do I have to start thinking about shooting heads and relearning fly casting all over again?

Have been looking at both the Cortland 333 and 444 and finding a class III sink rate which I have found means 3-4 IPS sink rate. That doesn't seem like enough to get down 10-15 feet before the line is pulled past the hole. I simply don't know enough to even guess.

For those that fish the Humptulips, my example would be the Bluff hole below Stevens creek as to what flow rates I would be fishing and a general idea of the type of hole I plan to hit for Chinook. Another would be carbody although it is much slower and I don't think getting deep would be as much of an issue.

One of the biggest questions is will a standard sinking 3-4 IPS sink rate line continue to sink even though the line has made it downstream of me or will it begins to raise because of the flowing water? Faster water I would expect it.

I know it is asking a lot and if I am simply trying to take on something that is a few skill levels above me I may just relent to shallower runs where Coho sit and hope for a Chinook once in a while.
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#751314 - 04/02/12 03:59 AM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: fish_4_all]
fish_4_all Offline
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Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 656
Loc: Grays Harbor
I know I asked in another thread, this is just to learn for me. I have a lot of learning to do when it comes to fly fishing and all the different lines and what they are used for and capable of.

Not in a hurry here, not going to be buying a bunch of different lines anytime soon. Need to learn to land a salmon on a fly rod before I can even think I will have a chance at landing a Chinook on one.

Does anyone know of a detailed online article that explains all this stuff in basic terms? Anything that I can use to learn the basics of sinking lines so I can start to learn them fishing for trout in lakes where I don't have to worry about a #40 nook whoopin me let alone a #10 steelhead.
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#751320 - 04/02/12 09:39 AM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: fish_4_all]
hooksetter1 Offline
Parr

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 57
From Rich Youngers in Oregon...

Quote:
I've fly fished for salmon in the estuaries for 30 years and have compiled some tips for you as far as fly fishing for Chinook and Silvers.
Fly fishing the estuaries will require shooting head systems consisting of intermediate running lines and intermediate 30 ft shooting head, 30 foot type III shooting head and a 30ft floating shooting head with a floating shooting line. With these line systems, I use a 6ft leader of 15-20 pound test on the sinking shooting heads and a 9-12ft leader on the floating shooting heads. These head systems you use will be dependent on the depth of the pool you’re fishing which is influenced by tide activity.
The best way I have found to entice Chinook to strike is by using long slow pulls on the fly line and keeping the tip of the rod low to minimize slack line. This last fall guide season on the coast I had a lot of salmon take the fly on the hang down before I even started stripping the fly in. One thing to remember is after the third or fourth strip just bring it in a recast. Chinook don't follow the fly as much as Silvers do. Those crazy Silvers will follow right up to the boat!!

Some of my favorite Chinook patterns are Orange/Black Comets, Orange/Yellow Hot Shot Comets, Chart/White Clousers , Tater Chip Fly, and Flash Flies.

When fishing for silvers, I use a floating or clear intermediate fly line in a 7-10 wt. I recommend a fast action rod with a good disc drag reel. The best presentation is to cast out to fish you see or a likely looking pool using your floating or intermediate line, then strip the line back very quickly using short pulls. Another method I use is to cast down and across letting the fly drift and sink. Then swing through the holding fish at the appropriate depth on outgoing tide just before low slack. This method often triggers a more aggressive strike as it swings into their space. Once the swing is complete and the fly is hanging directly below you in the current, don’t rush to haul it in. I’ve had numerous fish slam it as the fly hung motionless. I usually use a 9ft leader of 12 lb. test, floating line and a 6-9ft, 12# leader with an intermediate line.
For Silvers, I like the Karluk Flash Fly tied in purple, Alley’s Shrimp and the Spruce Fly.

Hope this will help. One last thing is a boat is very helpful when fly fishing the estuaries.

Rich

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#751348 - 04/02/12 01:43 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: hooksetter1]
fish_4_all Offline
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Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 656
Loc: Grays Harbor
Estuaries and tidal fishing isn't gonna be too much of a problem. Catch Coho and Chinook 3 feet from the bank in tidal water and 5 feet of water. Still decent information if I ever get out in a boat in tidal water.

Sounds like way too many things to even think about right now. Might be better if I just fish with my WF/F line and get a WF/SIII line and learn how deep I can actually get. Experiment over the summer while throwing for summers and learn something or maybe learn a LOT.
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#751366 - 04/02/12 02:54 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: ]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5213
Loc: Carkeek Park
Good advice KK.
With all the different Rio tungsten lines available, you can just about cover every situation by making your own heads. A good running line and heads with loops and you are good to go.
A less expensive alternative to Rio tungsten heads is Cortland LC-13.
You won't have the different sink rates though that you will with the Rio T-8,11,14, 17 or 20.
Here is a good rule of thumb for shooting head set-ups depending on the rod weight you plan to fish.
8wt - 28' head
9wt - 29' head
10wt - 30' head
I always start with 30' and cut the head back one foot at a time until you find the sweet spot for the rod I'm fishing.
SF
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#751377 - 04/02/12 03:58 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: stonefish]
fish_4_all Offline
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Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 656
Loc: Grays Harbor
Okay, so let me see if I have this right. Lead core lines that you cut to certain lengths depending on how fast you want the line to sink. The more head the faster the sink, right? Have to use less of larger sinking heads also, right?

Cortland is 13 grains per foot, more you use the deeper you should be able to get?

Rio Shooting heads just have faster sink rate options so you can use less of one or more of another and achieve the same results?

I am curious, I have lead core trolling line, can one use that to experiment before spending so much on specialty lines?
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Taking my fishing poles with me to a body of water that has fish in it is not an excuse to enjoy the scenery.

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#751411 - 04/02/12 07:36 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: fish_4_all]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13597
Lead core trolling line sinks extremely well, but it's difficult and potentially dangerous to cast. BTDT. With the wealth of lines available these days I'd avoid lead core. LC13 is plastic coated and handles better.

I have RIO sink tips in type 3, 6, 7, and 8 plus T-8, T-11, and T-14 in a 15' length. That with a lead dumbell eyed fly and I can scrape the stones on the bottom of any river I want to fish.

Sg

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#751413 - 04/02/12 07:48 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: fish_4_all]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5213
Loc: Carkeek Park
This might help you.
http://www.rioproducts.com/fly-lines/shooting-heads-lines/heads/t-8-11-14-17-20
If you notice, all the the factory heads start out at 30' in length so you can cut them back.
Most fly shops sell the Rio T material in bulk so you can make your heads yourself and just add your own loops.
Lots of variable such as current, length, material type etc come into play how fast a head will sink.
The problem with using short heads on a shooting head system is they will have a tendency to dump.
The LC in Cortland LC -13 stands for 'Lead Core". The Rio heads are much more supple then the LC-13. I used LC-13 for heads while fishing bluewater before Rio's T lines came out and it worked well.
I'm not sure how it compares to lead core trolling line, but it might be worth a try.


Edited by stonefish (04/02/12 07:51 PM)
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#751415 - 04/02/12 07:51 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: Salmo g.]
SRoffe Offline
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Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 777
The lines that Stonefish was mentioning I believe is a custom shooting head. You cut back the head for the weight rod you are casting.

Rio Sinking Shooting Head
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#751461 - 04/02/12 10:49 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: SRoffe]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5213
Loc: Carkeek Park
By the way, not to confuse the thread, but there are two totally different systems being discussed in this thread.
Multi-tip system like the Rio Versa-Tip which KK mentioned and the shorter heads Salmo uses versus shooting head systems which have much longer heads.
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#751498 - 04/03/12 01:13 AM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: stonefish]
fish_4_all Offline
Spawner

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 656
Loc: Grays Harbor
No, no confusion here! LOL. Just a lot to learn.

Bear with me, this is intended to show how much I either think I know or expose just how much of an idiot I am when it comes to sinking lines.

Cortland LC-13 Lead Core says it has a 8.75 IPS sink rate. 13 grains per foot which would be 390 grains for 30'. Find my spot I fish, find the bottom and cut off enough to just keep it above the bottom or where the fish are suspending. Weighted and unweighted flies will change this sink rate but not very much unless the fly is bulky and light or really heavily weighted, right?

What does that mean? Using all 30' you get 8.75 IPS sink rate? 15' you get 4.375 IPS sink rate? 10' you get 2.92 IPS sink rate?

Coupled with the 3.5-4 IPS sink rate of the Cortland 333+ WF/SIII line.

BTW, I am guessing here so correct me if I am way off base, please!
LLC-13 coupled with Cortland WF/SIII gives the following, theoretically:
30' = 12.25-12.75 IPS
15' = 7.875-8.375 IPS
10' = 6.42-6.92 IPS

Or is that the 13 grains per foot gives you a sink rate 8.75 IPS if you use a foot or use 30'?
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Taking my fishing poles with me to a body of water that has fish in it is not an excuse to enjoy the scenery.

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#751499 - 04/03/12 01:27 AM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: fish_4_all]
fish_4_all Offline
Spawner

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 656
Loc: Grays Harbor
Or should I quit trying to analyse things so detailed and get the sinking line, get the LC-13 and go out and figure out what I need to get down close to the bottom?

And my best bet, if I am thinking right, would be the LC-13 for cost and simplicity. Cut it for shallower, leave it for deeper.

And one other question, will a WF/S line turn over a 30' sinking tip like that? Not considered a shooting head if tied directly to sinking WF line is it?
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#751541 - 04/03/12 12:59 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: ]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13597
F4A,

That sink rate is not cumulative. If LC13 sinks at 8.75 "/sec, that is the sink rate whether it is one foot or 20 feet of the stuff. Sink rates are listed to give you an idea of a line's sinking performance, and are measured with the bare line in still water, not connected to flies, leaders, or running line of any kind. And sink rates are almost always over-stated. From my reading, anyone who does an independent test always finds that lines sink slower than their listed rate, so it's best to think of sink rate as a relative index for comparing one line to another when making your choices.

Further, you generally cannot cast, at least not worth a sh!t, by attaching a sink tip or shooting head to the end of a regular WF flyline. A shooting head is generally attached (loop to loop method) to a shooting line, either mono like Amnesia or thin floating fly line made for the purpose.

There are books that explain most of this stuff, but I don't know any specifically intended for salmon fishing. But there are steelhead fly fishing books by Trey Combs and Deke Meyer that discuss tackle in a lot of detail.

BTW, when you're adding up those grains, it might help to keep in mind that an 8 wt fly rod is rated for 210 gr, a 9 wt for 240 gr, and a 10 wt for 280 gr. 390 gr might need a 12 wt rod and still wouldn't cast comfortably. But if you attach 20' of LC13 to some mono running line, you'll be able to scrape the stones of just about any piece of water anywhere fish hold. I've never used it, and I almost never use T-14 sink tips either. For the steelhead water I fish, I normally use a 15' sink tip in type 3, 6, or 8 and add a weighted fly if I need to fish deeper.

Sg

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#751572 - 04/03/12 02:10 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: fish_4_all]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5213
Loc: Carkeek Park
Originally Posted By: fish_4_all
And one other question, will a WF/S line turn over a 30' sinking tip like that? Not considered a shooting head if tied directly to sinking WF line is it?


A WF sinking line would likely turn over a 30' head, but it wouldn't be pretty. I'd recommend a helmet and goggles.
You'll want to use a floating or intermediate running line to set up a shooting head system.
I like the Airflo Ridge running lines or Airflo Miracle Braid.

You really don't you need a shooting head system for what you are trying to achieve. Search the web for a low cost new or used SA, Rio or Airflo multi-tip system, make some of your own heads to compliment the standard heads and add water. You'll be set.
Shooting heads system definately have there places where they shine.
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#751605 - 04/03/12 03:22 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: stonefish]
fish_4_all Offline
Spawner

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 656
Loc: Grays Harbor
And to think I was thinking it was as easy as get a WF sinking line and a WF floating line to meet most needs. Good thing I asked, I would have been disappointed when I didn't get any where near as deep as I wanted to.

I will try to sort through all this and come up with I think I need and post it for critique.

But if I have part of this right no sinking WF line, get a system with different heads. Something like these?
system 2
system 1

Salmo, any of those lines you sent able to be used with anything anyone has suggested?
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Taking my fishing poles with me to a body of water that has fish in it is not an excuse to enjoy the scenery.

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#751619 - 04/03/12 03:51 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: fish_4_all]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5213
Loc: Carkeek Park
Are you fishing a spey rod or single hander. The lines you posted links to are spey lines.
If you are fishing a single hander, look at something like these.....
http://www.rioproducts.com/fly-lines/freshwater/sink-tip/versitip
http://www.tackledirect.com/airflo-freshwater-multi-tip-fly-lines.html

I'd check Ebay. I just bought two now discontinued Airflo lines from England the other day. Only cost me $10.00 for shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Airflo-Freshwate...=item4cfb2c8ed3
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#751621 - 04/03/12 03:54 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: stonefish]
fish_4_all Offline
Spawner

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 656
Loc: Grays Harbor
Single hand 8wt.

Am I getting into the chuck and duck type fly fishing with all these shooting heads?
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Taking my fishing poles with me to a body of water that has fish in it is not an excuse to enjoy the scenery.

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#751622 - 04/03/12 03:59 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: fish_4_all]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13597
F4A,

I can't remember what I sent you.

I think 2 approaches will do what you want. You can save a lot of money if you cut and loop lines yourself. Since you can tie flies and jigs, you can do this. I forget what weight fly rod you have. If it's an 8 wt, I would:

1. Buy a WF8F line, a fairly cheap one like an SA Air Cell Supreme or whatever. They are around $30. After loading it on a reel, take the forward 15' of line and cut it off. Make loops on the 2 cut ends, and you will still have an 8 wt floating line. Then you can loop on any 15' sink tip. You can buy RIO or other brands at Cabela's and most fly shops. You can buy T-8, T-11, and T-14 in bulk or buy the foot from a number of places. (I know a place that has it discounted.) Now you've got a line that does everything the $135 one does.

2. For a shooting head outfit, after putting some 20# or 30# dacron on a reel spool, add 100' of 30# Amnesia or Slick Shooter mono. Make a loop in the end of that, and you can attach shooting heads of LC13 and any other contraption you're willing to try to cast.

These will give you fly fishing gear that should satisfy any deep sunk fly fishing requirements.

Sg

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#751625 - 04/03/12 04:08 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: Salmo g.]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5213
Loc: Carkeek Park
Another option regarding loops if you don't want to make your own by doubling the line over.
http://www.danblanton.com/blog/getting-looped/
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#751641 - 04/03/12 05:17 PM Re: Fly lines for Chinook and getting deep [Re: fish_4_all]
metaladdiction Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 433
Originally Posted By: fish_4_all
Single hand 8wt.

Am I getting into the chuck and duck type fly fishing with all these shooting heads?


Just gotta pay close attention. My kid has only hooked himself twice this year, but he was doing stupid sh!t. Does your Single Hand 8wt have a fighting butt. I ask, because casting this much weighted line requires some extra juice to move it around. First to get it up out of the water and then to recast. If you have a fighting butt you may be able to incorporate some 2 handed spey techniques to reduce fatigue over the day.

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