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#817395 - 01/23/13 09:23 PM Re: Occupy Skagit ***** [Re: ]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Bob Hooten, a BC ateelhead manager, pushed hard and successfully to get C&R fisheries for BC steelhead. His comment to me, after seeing what happened in the 20+ years they were in place, is that they did NOT help the populations. Why, he doesn't know. But the runs did not increase.

So, while C&R certainly works for resident trout, sea-run cutthroat, and native char it does not seem to have helped steelhead.

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#817520 - 01/24/13 02:53 AM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Carcassman]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Bob Hooten, a BC ateelhead manager, pushed hard and successfully to get C&R fisheries for BC steelhead. His comment to me, after seeing what happened in the 20+ years they were in place, is that they did NOT help the populations. Why, he doesn't know. But the runs did not increase.

So, while C&R certainly works for resident trout, sea-run cutthroat, and native char it does not seem to have helped steelhead.


On the other side, C&R certainly didn't harm the runs either. I would think tracking the numbers in his region would be quite the task with constant commercial gillnet fisheries coinciding with the steelhead run. The Tyee test fishery is only a "best guess" indicator and probably kills more steelhead than the C&R fishery by a long shot.
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#817525 - 01/24/13 07:47 AM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: cobble cruiser]
steeliedrew Offline
SRC Poser

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 2143
Loc: Snohomish
what's the Tyee test fishery?
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#817537 - 01/24/13 10:09 AM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: steeliedrew]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The Tyee test fishery, I believe, is the one conducted on Skeena. The record is pretty clear up there that the various groups conducting net fisheries have hammered steelhead excessively.

I should have been more clear. The C&R area I was speaking of was Vancouver Island. The outside streams don't have net fisheries. Those on the inside do.

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#817542 - 01/24/13 10:23 AM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: steeliedrew]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
CM-
Hooten is correct of course; CnR season have not/did not help the Salish sea wild steelhead populations over the long haul (as measured as increased run size). But to be fair neither did reduced wild harvest, wild steelhead release, gear restrictions, shorter seasons, closed seasons, etc. Clearly other factors are also in play which seem to dominate/override potential benefits from reduce fishing impacts one would logically expect.

A huge factor has to be one of timing; when those things were being implemented these other factors (marine survivals being one example) were increasing their impacts.

To the board in general -
Do you expect that at some future date things like marine survival will improve and we may well see larger runs?

If those increases occur do you see some potential for some fishing opportunity?

Do you think a CnR season would be the one of the first approaches considered in any increased fishing opportunities?

If you answer yes to those questions how should the manager's proceed? As things are currently structured even if on the Skagit we were getting 10,000 wild fish a year back the season would remain essentially the same as most of the current allowable impacts (measured as a per cent of the run) are being used up.

Do we wait until the entire Puget Sound ESA listed populations are delisted? Or do we exaimine approaches similar to that used for Puget Sound Chinook where allowable impacts were determined for specific rivers based on the status and productivity of each of those stocks?

More to the point if we are going to look at an individual basin approach should the development of the criteria (a length process) under which any potential fishing can occur wait until there the runs have improved? or should that occur more proactive so that it would be in place when things improve so that potential fishing could happen years earlier? Any new approach will require a revamping of the allowable impacts as determined by NMFS and likely some modification of the WDFW Statewide Steelhead Management Plan (which by the way is 5 years old and is due for a review).

It should be obvious what the answers to those questions are for those supporting the "Occupy Skagit" movement! If your answers are different then continuing sitting on the bank doing nothing is probably the appropriate approach.

Why the Skagit?
In the context of Puget Sound steelhead the quality of its freshwater habitat ranks near the top, it was the poster child of wild steelhead CnR fishing, and it is likely the first large PS systen to see decent wild runs again (2012 saw the escapement goal exceeded). That combined with one of the more conservative wild steelhead escapement management makes the Skagit a logic starting point.

As always just a former steelheader's viewpoint.

Curt

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#817556 - 01/24/13 11:57 AM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Smalma]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
As always Curt, thank you for your valuable insight. My wish is that someday I will have another chance to legally stand on the banks of the Sky in April and wet a line. Of course, it seems the Skagit would have a better shot at an opener and I wouldn't complain about that. I really miss the Sky the most when those monsters tested everything you had.
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#817561 - 01/24/13 12:19 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: cobble cruiser]
Jason Beezuz Offline
My Waders are Moist

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3440
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
As always Curt, thank you for your valuable insight. My wish is that someday I will have another chance to legally stand on the banks of the Sky in April and wet a line. Of course, it seems the Skagit would have a better shot at an opener and I wouldn't complain about that. I really miss the Sky the most when those monsters tested everything you had.


I also miss the Sky C&R season because before that the Skagit/Sauk C&R was damn near solitude. After the Sky C&R ended it was a zoo. No surprise but it was the first time I became aware of the "anglers flocking to the next trough" phenomena.
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#817576 - 01/24/13 01:25 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Jason Beezuz]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Sky Guy,

No argument that fisheries data is "dirty." However, the issue is whether the data are clean enough to use in analyses that support management decisions. To that, I think the Skagit steelhead data are sufficiently adequate. Precision is not necessary. Reliable year to year index data that vary in response to harvest and environmental inputs are "good enough" to manage anadromous fish populations. The claim that anadromous fish populations are mis-managed using that data is debatable according to point of view and management objective. The interests favoring increased conservation tend to be disappointed, while the interests that favor maximum harvest think the data and models work as intended.

AP,

Yes, it's hard to tell when I'm being sarcastic. I should use a different font or learn how to insert those emoticons. I was being both sarcastic and serious in that post. Sarcastic about MPM being a genius and serious about neither recreational and treaty fishing not adversely affecting the Skagit steelhead population over the last 20, heck, let's make that 30 years. Obviously, every steelhead taken by incidental fishing mortality or direct intended harvest was an adverse outcome for those fish. But that is very different than effects on the population overall. For those mortalities to have adversely affected the population, they would have needed to result in lower subsequent productivity. That wasn't the case. Population size ranged up and down with freshwater productivity generally independent of escapement size, meaning enough steelhead spawned to produce enough juveniles to seed most of the productive rearing habitat. By all indications, the adult population size has been constrained by ocean survival, particularly early marine survival, when compared to coastal steelhead populations. There is no good evidence that adult run sizes would have been larger had more fish spawned in the parent generation. That's why I'm fairly confident in agreeing with NMFS official review that neither recreational nor treaty harvest has adversely affected the wild steelhead population.

MPM,

Although you think it's reasonable to believe that CNR seasons might have an affect, I'm curious how that could be when the fisheries agencies have determined that actual harvests of steelhead haven't adversely affected the population. In that context it's a pretty long stretch to conclude that CNR seasons have any measurable adverse affect, particularly an affect that might limit population or DPS survival and recovery in ESA terms.

Sg

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#817708 - 01/24/13 08:53 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: ]
steeliedrew Offline
SRC Poser

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 2143
Loc: Snohomish
Angler pressure is rediculous. The way I see it, it needs to be spread out. Look at the Nooch this year. It's been a complete Sh!t show. Now wait til next year when there is no more early winter run fishery on the cowlitz. Where do you think all those people will go? I'm guessing the Nooch. if the bankies want to get to the other side of the river they'll be able to walk across the boats to get there. Haha.
And we're just talking hatchery fish there.

I feel that if some of the puget sound rivers and creeks had the C&R season reinstated it would really help spread pressure out. With the OP streams having a bonk a' Nate season it doesn't help that they are the only place to go either.

Can someone enlighten me on how the biologists get their numbers for wild fish on our puget sound rivers? I bet they would rethink their numbers if they went out with guides during peak run timing and fished bait for a day or pulled plugs. Being the only boat on the river I'd imagine they would hook quite a few.

These are just some thoughts from someone who doesn't yet know much about fisheries science (me). Just trying to fish and learn about the resource. Fishing the Sky in the spring is much more affordable for me than dragging the boat to the OP. If the C&R season was open on the Sky I feel like the amount of OP trips I personally take would be cut by 50% at least.
_________________________
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"Dude...where's your boat!?" Team runaway drift boat prostaff.

Big Stick 2012: "EVERY thought of my being, is in regards to being a Hi-Tech Predator and I relish the role."

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#817715 - 01/24/13 09:15 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Salmo g.]
Krummy Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 26
Loc: Ferndale, WA
A chance to gain back a C&R season, Hell ya im in and i will have 5 or 6 more boats in on the action. I'm willing to stick up for whats right and for my childrens ability to enjoy what I have over the years.
As for mortality it is a case by case situation, if we as fisherman teach and educate each other and our youth on the way these fish should be handled (or lack there of) the mortality rate would not even exist.

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#817783 - 01/25/13 08:13 AM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Krummy]
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
I find it somewhat amusing that the people out fishing complain about all the people out fishing.
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#818039 - 01/26/13 03:06 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Jerry Garcia]
Superfishial Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: Jerry Garcia
I find it somewhat amusing that the people out fishing complain about all the people out fishing.


Agree 100%

I'm part of the problem and I try not to complain but it's so gut-wrenching sometimes that I almost feel like hanging up the rods for good, so I complain. A Skagit C&R season would be a nightmarish zoo this day in age but I would fish it for sure.

Seems to be a lot of hate toward WDFW when they are the ones in fact trying to get the feds to adopt a steelhead harvest management plan and change the 4.2% harvest rate. Without a steelhead harvest management plan in place, the only way to have a C&R fishery is to reduce take elsewhere, mostly from the tribes, and we should know by now that it is NOT an option.

from what I can tell, it all seems like a waste of good energy...

Steeliedrew- For steelhead, Bios count redds in the gravel throughout historical indexed stretches of river by foot, boat, and helicopter. For the areas outside of these indexes they use expansion equations and that right there is where the numbers get foggy. In an attempt to clear things up in the case of PS steelhead, WDFW has been looking at these outer areas (basin-wide) basin by basin, for the past 4 years. Steelhead tend to get caught multiple times which makes a strong case against your survey method ; )


Edited by Superfishial (01/26/13 03:13 PM)

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#818956 - 01/30/13 05:51 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Superfishial]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
So, can someone please tell me how WDFW could allow a C&R fishery on Skagit wild steelhead, or any other PS stock fro that matter?

It is not legal for them to do so. A C&R fishery is a "Direct Take" of an ESA-listed animal, you are targeting the wild fish. For those of you who are arguing that it's only catch and release, it doesn't matter much what the hooking mortality estimate is, if it's not 0% it's a direct take take under the ESA and it's currently not permissible. Right now all allowable impacts (4%) are used up to get at the early-winter hatchery fish from Marblemount. Those hatchery fish are the only reason anyone is fishing at all for steelhead in Puget Sound rivers. WDFW can get these "Indirect" fisheries permitted, because they are targeting the hatchery fish and are still managed to not exceed the 4% total impact on the wild fish.

Not trying to dismiss people's desire for the return of these fisheries, just trying to add some context to the discussion.

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#819010 - 01/30/13 09:06 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: JustBecause]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Just on the Skagit a few years ago there was a directed fishery on adult summer Chinook without a problem. What it took was federal approval of fishing plans that allowed such fisheries under very specific conditions that had been predetermined and approved as not representing a significant increase in risk of extinction of the population.

Then again on the Skagit the killing ESA listed bull trout (two a day over 20 inches) is allowed. Again this is federally approved and in the case of the bull trout (aka Dollies) the spawning abundances have increased rather dramatically under that regulation.

As always fisheries management can be complex and the devil is in the details. However I see no reasons that if the necessary was done and a plan approved that such a fishery could not occur under the approved conditions (for example on run sizes expected to exceed 6,000 spawners). The point in calling attention to the Skagit CnR via Occupy the Skagit is get the ball rolling on the development of such a plan in proactive matter so that when the populations rebounds things would be inplace for a fishery. Without that advance work any potential fishery will be even further in the future.

BTW -
Power companies, loggers, developers, etc are killing ESA listed fish each and every day via habitat impacts.

Curt


Edited by Smalma (01/30/13 09:07 PM)

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#819140 - 01/31/13 11:39 AM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Smalma]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Curt,

Thanks for your answer. I was going to go on and detail the differences between the current STHD fishery situation, compared to the other listed species, but I felt I was already getting too "weedy" and boring for folks. I can't speak to a future Skagit fishery, I was mainly pointing out the current landscape and the current lack of options for WDFW.

Thanks

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#820892 - 02/06/13 11:13 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: JustBecause]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: JustBecause
So, can someone please tell me how WDFW could allow a C&R fishery on Skagit wild steelhead, or any other PS stock fro that matter?

It is not legal for them to do so. A C&R fishery is a "Direct Take" of an ESA-listed animal, you are targeting the wild fish. For those of you who are arguing that it's only catch and release, it doesn't matter much what the hooking mortality estimate is, if it's not 0% it's a direct take take under the ESA and it's currently not permissible. Right now all allowable impacts (4%) are used up to get at the early-winter hatchery fish from Marblemount. Those hatchery fish are the only reason anyone is fishing at all for steelhead in Puget Sound rivers. WDFW can get these "Indirect" fisheries permitted, because they are targeting the hatchery fish and are still managed to not exceed the 4% total impact on the wild fish.

Not trying to dismiss people's desire for the return of these fisheries, just trying to add some context to the discussion.


That says it all. Thanks for the articulate synopsis.

Seems the only way to save the wild fish is to STOP all hatchery plants of steelhead. At that point, there would be no fishery to incidentally take any wild fish.

Maybe give them a chance to recover?
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#820895 - 02/06/13 11:19 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
OTOH, the greedy side would say plant a token run of late hatch fish to target.... and C&R the "incidental" wild bycatch.

JFC.... did I really just type that?

Must be the Sig's NW Ale talkin'
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#821663 - 02/09/13 02:24 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
It's pretty clear to those of us who fish that no fish ever benefited by being hooked and caught by an angler. Complete preservation, of fish and their habitat, is the perfect solution from a fish's point of view. But OS is not about the fish's point of view.

OS is about steelheaders who would rather fish than see their favorite river closed to fishing forevermore. Realistically, that is the present outlook simply because there is no plan, and only a vague intent to plan, to ever open the Skagit to fishing for wild steelhead again. OS is about developing such a plan, as soon as possible, so that anglers may fish the Skagit again in their lifetimes.

The talk about recovery and letting the fish recover before fishing again is a discussion based on false assumptions and unrealistic expectations. Wild Skagit steelhead are a population in no particular need of recovery. What, you say, it's consistently produced runsizes lower than the escapement goal. Therefore that must mean the population needs to recover to a higher level, and must do so before any fishing can resume. Enter the false assumptions and unrealistic expectations.

Wild Skagit steelhead are the most abundant in Puget Sound. Since 1978 the runsize has averaged 7,822 fish, ranging from a low of around 2,600 to a high of 16,000. The spawning escapement has averaged 6,857 steelhead after harvest, both incidental and directed. As far as anyone can know for certain, this variation in population size is completely normal. There are good years, and there are bad years. Freshwater floods and droughts limit the outmigrating smolt population from year to year. The freshwater habitat has not really changed much in the last 30 years. Some parts have degraded further, and some parts have improved. On balance it would be hard to quantify any significant change. And marine survival factors limit the percent of smolts that survive to adulthood and return from the ocean each year. Given what we know about run sizes and escapement over a more than 30 year period, there is no logical reason to believe that wild Skagit steelhead runs will ever in the future consistently average above the present spawning escapement floor value.

The escapement goal is an artifact of uncertainty. The aggregate model that escapement goals were developed from in the 1980s calculated a Skagit spawning escapement goal far above 20,000. Since that seemed impractable and unrealistic, so biologists rather arbitrarily picked 10,000 as an escapement guideline. In the 1980s when marine survival was higher than it is now, that value appeared realistic. As more data were collected and analyzed, it was apparent from spawner - recruit analysis that the MSY/MSH escapement goal would be much lower, slightly less than 4,000. That seems low for such a large river basin, so the co-managers settled on 6,000 as a buffered escapement floor for some interim period. The take home message in this paragraph is that no relationship exists between the Skagit wild steelhead spawning escapment goal and the actual productivity and capacity of the Skagit River basin to produce steelhead. Please re-read the last sentence and be certain that you understand it.

The last paragraph means that the Skagit wild steelhead spawning escapement goal is arbitrary, and possibly capricious. It's meaning is primarily make believe then. This leads me to the question of for what purpose are Skagit steelhead managed? Is it strictly species preservation, like a petting zoo, except you can't actually pet the animals? Or is the purpose to conserve the population for the mutual long-term benefit of the species as well as human social and economic benefits. If the purpose is the former, then the present course is the one to stay on. If the latter, then a change is required.

OS is an evidence-based approach to steelhead management. Studies show that incidental mortality is significantly lower than the 10% value presently used by WDFW and NMFS. Skagit steelhead productivity shows that CNR seasons from 1981 through 2009 have no measurable effect on population size. Even the combination of CNR incidental mortality and the limited directed harvest indicate that fishing mortality has had no measurable effect on wild steelheaad population abundance over the past 30 years.

OS does not propose CNR fishing the Skagit run into extinction. The evidence strongly suggests that isn't possible. OS is simply pointing out that, above some arbitrarily selected threshold runsize, mangement regulations could permit CNR steelhead seasons to be implemented with no measurable risk to future population abundance. And during that period, anglers can obtain the social benefits associated with CNR fishing, and the local economy can benefit from added fishing activity. These benefits can be enjoyed while simultaneously conserving wild Skagit steelhead for as long as steelhead habitat is also conserved. It's just about that simple, but for the way the PS steelhead ESA listing aggregates Skagit steelhead. Just because change is hard does not mean change is not possible.

Sg

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#821671 - 02/09/13 03:01 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Salmo g.]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Good one Salmo.

Thanks.
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#821875 - 02/10/13 05:00 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: ]
bhudda Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/06/11
Posts: 224
Loc: S River central
Knowledge is power-thx for the boost SG, OS is lookin good on facts...we just need to be present!!
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