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#816996 - 01/22/13 04:10 PM Re: Occupy Skagit ***** [Re: 206jb]
Nick Berto Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/11
Posts: 248
Loc: Monroe, WA
Sounds like a good time to me and anything that can help to open our fisheries back up would be a good thing, Skagit, Sky, etc.

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#817007 - 01/22/13 05:09 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Nick Berto]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
I'm not a lawyer and I'd like to fish all that water as much as anyone but I think this would clearly fall under "harassment" of an ESA threatened species.

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#817017 - 01/22/13 05:59 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I think bobbing around in a boat and being present would send a good message...casting without hooks would not, and I'd say there's a better than even chance that you'd be violating the law, too.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#817193 - 01/23/13 11:52 AM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: ]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
OS will talk with WDFW LE before the event. The un-official un-organizers intend a lawful protest.

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#817243 - 01/23/13 03:01 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Salmo g.]
bhudda Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/06/11
Posts: 224
Loc: S River central
Our unity in this event is where we can show the commission we can actually agree and support each other for all to gain. We can do this. Go to OS Facebook site ,upload photos,
join in conversation,and strengthen the cause...
_________________________
salmonsteelsox rod covers
check it before you wreck it!
#hatcheryfishhavenospiritname

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#817253 - 01/23/13 03:22 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: bhudda]
RB3 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 1383
Any one contact the tribe? They can use bottomless dip nets.


Edited by RB3 (01/23/13 03:22 PM)

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#817261 - 01/23/13 03:36 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: RB3]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
I really like this idea, but as a few have suggested, best make sure nobody that is participating per the "rules" gets made an example of by enforcement first.

I also like salmosalar's idea of hitting up a breakfast joint on the way there. If everyone participating makes a note to buy some sort of tackle from a local retailer and buy a meal at a local restaurant, the economic benefits associated with open sport seasons would be reiterated, yet again. Better yet, some could even book a stay at a local motel for the night before (or after, if you plan to throw back a few while participating). As a rule, no matter what you purchase in the area, mention to the clerk, etc. that you are in town for Occupy Skagit.

I'll keep an eye on the ol' calendar, and if things work out, I may just come out. I have been meaning to get up to the Skagit Valley for years; this seems like a great excuse.

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#817265 - 01/23/13 03:42 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: FleaFlickr02]
BroodBuster Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 3113
Loc: Bothell, Wa
I can think of one bar that has missed out of a lot of money from this closure and one grumpy 'ol man who is probably even grumpier now that it's been several years since he has had the opportunity to yell at me and my dog smile

I'm in!
_________________________
"Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them." Ronald Reagan

"The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher.

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think." Adolf Hitler

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#817270 - 01/23/13 03:50 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: BroodBuster]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 766
Loc: Seattle, WA
So, just to play devil's advocate (sort of), what are the arguments in favor of opening up the C&R season?

Wouldn't it increase impacts/mortality on a threatened run that we all want to recover?

Go!

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#817272 - 01/23/13 03:53 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: BroodBuster]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: BroodBuster
I can think of one bar that has missed out of a lot of money from this closure and one grumpy 'ol man who is probably even grumpier now that it's been several years since he has had the opportunity to yell at me and my dog smile

I'm in!


LOL!

I'm sure ol' J.O. has found plenty of other folks to yell at...but he sure did seem to make a career of cruising our camp and looking at you and your dog like you were child molesters smile

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#817277 - 01/23/13 04:01 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: MPM]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
Originally Posted By: MPM
So, just to play devil's advocate (sort of), what are the arguments in favor of opening up the C&R season?

Wouldn't it increase impacts/mortality on a threatened run that we all want to recover?

Go!


I think this is a valid question. We criticize WDFW for running the the fisheries into the ground but then beat them up when they close down a system that seems to need protecting. There may or may not be enough fish to warrant a fishery but the system certainly isn't "healthy".

This is a regular internal conflict for me.

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#817291 - 01/23/13 04:31 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: MPM]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: MPM
So, just to play devil's advocate (sort of), what are the arguments in favor of opening up the C&R season?

Wouldn't it increase impacts/mortality on a threatened run that we all want to recover?

Go!


Extremely salient question MPM. Why open the Skagit to CNR fishing? Well, when NMFS proposed listing Puget Sound steelhead, the agency noted that while past fishing and harvest had been a factor for decline, fishing, including the limited harvest allowed since the 1980s and 1990s were not a factor affecting stock status. That being the case, if previous CNR seasons did not adversely affect stock status and abundance, a reasonable thinker might conclude that CNR seasons going forward would not adversely affect stock status and abundance, nor inhibit steelhead survival and recovery (important ESA words there).

That would be the biological reason for re-opening the river's CNR seasons. The additional biological argument is that when the river is open to fishing, there are more eyes on the water, repressing the off season poaching that occurs, or reporting it when it's witnessed. The social argument is that it would increase the very scarce western WA opportunity for winter steelhead fishing, particularly in the PS region. The economic argument is that it would restore lost economic activity in the Skagit Valley, mainly in the form of motels, restaurants, gas stations, fishing guides, and so on.

The best argument for not re-opening the CNR seasons is that no fish ever benefited from having a hook stuck in its mouth. The next best reason for not re-opening the CNR seasons is that fisheries management is work. Since closing the fishery in 2010, WDFW has to produce a pre-season run size forecast in cooperation with the Skagit treaty tribes. Then they perform spawning surveys and calculate the spawning escapement. They don't have to deal with a single sport fisherman, you know, the group of license buying citizens that pay a significant portion of their salaries. You see, for a management agency, there isn't much of a downside to closing fishing, and it's less work. At least there isn't a downside so long as you don't peruse internet fishing bulletin boards and read that sport anglers are grumbling and complaining about closed waters and reduced fishing opportunity.

Did I miss anything?

Sg

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#817292 - 01/23/13 04:34 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Salmo g.]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Another biological reason would be reducing pressure (harvest and CnR) on OP stocks since they won't be the only rivers open. Actually, since the fishing pressure has little to no effect on the fish abundance there, too, it's probably more of a social benefit to spread out the fishing pressure more.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#817297 - 01/23/13 04:53 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Todd]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Yeppers Todd. Social benefit.

Angler crowding is a positive when measuring angler use. I've never seen a WDFW document where high angler density is described in other than positive terms. If high angler density on the OP ultimately results in over-harvest, then just close that or those rivers too. Problem solved. While opportunity is desirable, it's not essential to successful management. sorta' t.i.c.

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#817302 - 01/23/13 05:08 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Salmo g.]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 766
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yeah, as far as the fish are concerned, it seems like opening the Skagit C&R system would maybe have a negative impact on the Skagit run (although perhaps minimal), but might have a positive impact on OP runs.

As far as poaching goes, my thinking was that it would be easier to identify poachers when the season is closed, since anybody fishing is poaching (or, at least, violating the law). I wonder if there are actually any reliable statistics for poaching during a closed season v. a C&R only season.

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#817303 - 01/23/13 05:10 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: MPM]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
MPM, reliable statistics exist nowhere within fisheries management. With the exception of licensing dollars raised, of course.
_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#817307 - 01/23/13 05:30 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Sky-Guy]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
MPM,

Maybe you're a genius and can tell me how a Skagit CNR season would have a negative impact on the Skagit steelhead run when NMFS official status review says that neither recreational nor treaty fishing has adversely affected the stock over the last 20 years. If so, I need that info. Heck, the NW Science Center needs that info.

Regarding poaching, I'll share a little secret. WDFW patrols rivers that are open to fishing more than they patrol rivers that are closed to fishing. Wanna' know who knows this? The poachers. And no, there are no good statistics.

Sky Guy,

Ow! Low blow man, low blow.

Sg

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#817317 - 01/23/13 06:02 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Salmo g.]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
Salmo, the first rule about all Data is that data is dirty, and the data we have on escapement, harvest, etc is about as dirty as it gets! How an agency can make any type of decisions whilst acknowledging the data is manipulated inaccurate is difficult to understand. Erring on the side of caution is the best approach in this specific case.
_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#817322 - 01/23/13 06:15 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Salmo g.]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.

Maybe you're a genius and can tell me how a Skagit CNR season would have a negative impact on the Skagit steelhead run when NMFS official status review says that neither recreational nor treaty fishing has adversely affected the stock over the last 20 years. If so, I need that info. Heck, the NW Science Center needs that info.


It is difficult to tell when you are are being sarcastic most of the time, including now. Are you saying you personally agree that "neither recreational nor treaty fishing has adversely affected the stock over the last 20 years"? Or are you just stating their position?

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#817325 - 01/23/13 06:40 PM Re: Occupy Skagit [Re: Salmo g.]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 766
Loc: Seattle, WA
Salmo g.,

As you mentioned, a hook in a fish's lip never did any good to the fish. So I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a C&R season might have a negative impact on the fish. You'll note I said that a C&R season "would maybe" have a minimal negative impact. Unless you think agency determinations are infallible (I'm pretty sure you don't), that's not really inconsistent with NMFS past findings, right?

I'm still skeptical on what effect closed v. C&R has on poaching.

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