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#979898 - 09/20/17 08:46 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET *** [Re: eyeFISH]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1169
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
I bet it was a great show. I missed em this time around.

One of the great things about living around here, we do get a regular stream of great acts coming through!

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"Laugh if you want to, it really is kinda funny, cuz the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy"
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#979909 - 09/20/17 01:32 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3242
Fished Brady area yesterday. Fish moving (and very occasionally biting) on both sides of the bottom tide. ZERO action or signs of movement through the flood. Saw 3 coho hooked, with two landed. None of that damage was on my account; I took a thorough skunking. The landed fish were taken on herring behind big flashers, within a few minutes of each other. Didn't know people used that gear that far upriver, but I guess they knew what they were doing!

My overall impression was that the coho are just getting started, and they aren't around in good numbers yet, but that should improve every day for the next few. Should be in full swing (whatever that ends up looking like) by this weekend. Hope it gets a lot better.

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#979936 - 09/21/17 06:31 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

I think you got it FF. Think last year and stay there with your thoughts. Our fish are stagers and always do ( that is the easy part ) but where that is something else. Coho I have seen and hooked are straight out of the ocean white silver in color, they are moving slowly on tides and pretty much just plain in no hurry. These fish do not spawn until mid November so they will keep moving to someplace and stop, ah someplace. A spurt of hatchery Coho have been hanging out but not many wild in that group I was told.

Chinook are not staging nearly as much as one would hope for. Hard to judge the bay but above the 101 bridge they are not stopping in the mid and lower tide water at all. Every fish I have hooked and got a look at could have been on a Westport charter boat. So we are going to be fishing the flow as they go by and that can be a bit of a bitch. So you inriver guys know the drill. It is going to be all about finding where they are staging up and getting to the new arrivals as success drops the longer the fish is parked right to lock jaw time.
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#979937 - 09/21/17 07:16 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6876
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Here's a simplified thought about what is going on. The fish evolved a behavior pattern that allowed them to be successful. It may have been to get out of the ocean, hold for freshet, the bolt. Whatever.

Over the decades we remove them. What spawns is what survives. There are wild coho in PS that are now spawning in December/January and later. Why? because their parents did.

For a long time I scoffed at the the idea that hatcheries, especially, bred non-biters. Again, if you harvest 90% of the run, and much/most is with hook and line just what does live?

Basically, what spawns is what doesn't get caught.

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#979941 - 09/21/17 07:55 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12712
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Here's a simplified thought about what is going on. The fish evolved a behavior pattern that allowed them to be successful. It may have been to get out of the ocean, hold for freshet, the bolt. Whatever.

Over the decades we remove them. What spawns is what survives. There are wild coho in PS that are now spawning in December/January and later. Why? because their parents did.

For a long time I scoffed at the the idea that hatcheries, especially, bred non-biters. Again, if you harvest 90% of the run, and much/most is with hook and line just what does live?

Basically, what spawns is what doesn't get caught.


(Un-) Natural selection at its finest.

Give that man a GOLD star.

This is why it's important that the big ones get away and we let a few go to keep the biter trait alive and well.

Maybe that's why we catch so many stinkin' tules in the lower Columbia?
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"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#979952 - 09/21/17 11:06 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

It is simple cause and effect for any animal. How do you make a hatchery or wild run non biters? Use a hook & line that steadily removes the most aggressive and over time wella they don't bite well. How do you take a average 12 lb Coho to 6 to 8? Net them with a small mesh for several generations allowing a greater percentage in the pool of small fish and you will decrease size with time just as the marine fisheries are dictating the shrinking Chinook. This not new folks and was one of the first things I learned working with fish. The first thing Harry taught me was all things with salmon are proportional and when humans alter the gene flow things happen. This is not rocket science guys. Humans have been doing this to many creatures for a few thousand years. Seems somehow when it comes to fish we want to ignore fact and just plain basic common sense. Enviros blame habitat and many the hatcheries but the truth is WE are the problem because KILLING them for food and fun. Which I might add is compounded by a state government in denial and a governing agency that is lost in the wilderness.
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#979962 - 09/21/17 01:50 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3242
Agreed that humans killing salmon is the lion's share of the problems facing salmon. I personally don't buy into any notion that sport fishing has led fish to evolve to bite less (though there may be some truth there). My experience has consistently shown that, all other things being equal, quality of fishing is directly proportional to the number of fish subject to the fishery.

In 2014, when we had lots of coho around, I got lots of bites. For crying out loud, I had Chinook taking trolled spinners about 4 inches under the surface that year, and that hasn't been the case in any other year I've fished. Past two years, few coho, and very few bites. Of course, after I realized the numbers were crappy, I didn't put in as much effort....

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#979975 - 09/22/17 03:22 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
FF did not say sport fishers but hook and line which include trollers. All hook and line fisheries utilize the fishes own instincts to catch them. Also it is the hook and line that are trashing the 5 & 6 year fish as they are there two more years in the sea to get banged on. This is not a secret FF just something we do not like to admit. The greatest damage done by BC & AK.

Terminal fishing is a strange thing as to harvest as unlike commercial efforts which is mostly about finding them as catching is not that difficult. Weather. water, run timing just about everything is a variable. Certain things are a given in GH such as Chinook high % South channel and Coho North channel, that Coho & Chinook will stage up someplace in tidewater ( remember tidewater goes to past Fuller Hill ) or near that and find that area you catch fish. So you can have what looks like a huge amount of fish which can be that or about 10 other things.

Historically the best terminal Rec fishing has been years when Coho are up and Chinook & Chum are down followed by years when Chinook are down as it limits commercial tribal and NT efforts. Even low Coho runs can be great inriver as limited commercial time due to run size. The historical view is a bit off now as the GHMP did away with 7 days a week netting so inland it is different than in the past.

If you back up a bit farther back in time to the days where tons of small boats trolled all over from South Monte down the fundamental difference is hatchery production. We are down about 2 million smolt on Coho ( not counting the Hump ) which is about 60K of adults as the old rule is about 3% to the bar on Chehalis origin Coho. So these fish staged up so you simply had a lot of fish in the pool and 40 to 60k of Coho makes a real difference. Also as always in GH the limiter was natural production so the co managers could not do a wipe out thing. Our natural production has been stable but the dramatic reduction for hatchery production is the difference in Rec harvest in the last 10 years.

The dishonesty of WDF&W on all this is simply amazing and most do not even know what the hell happened. From the absolute stealing of the Skook hatchery for PS tribal production to budget driven production reductions that were more a swipe at the QIN than dollars it is a rather ugly bit of history that simply could not have happened anyplace else in the state.


Edited by Rivrguy (09/22/17 06:08 AM)
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#979978 - 09/22/17 07:38 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6876
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
To get into the wayback machine, back in the 90s I believe that WDFW began cutting hatchery coho production in an attempt to influence the Canadians. They were/are hammering our fish so the thought was if we give them fewer fish they might negotiate a "better" (Make Washington Great Again) deal. Instead, they kept taking their PST share; which hammered wilds more.

In my limited experience, as I was rarely involved in any sort of budget stuff, shifts if monies are to send messages and not due to a real "lack". Eventually, they are due to lack of funds but most often they are either a political jab at somebody or "we don't want you there anymore" sort of thing.

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#979981 - 09/22/17 08:35 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Annette Hoffman sent out a Willapa Chinook update. Several spread sheets attached so if anyone wants the info yell. The rack escapement is a bit messed up due to the rain and they made some improvements to trap the wily creature so that is a moving target. The best gauge I could find is the total impacts for the Willapa Basin which includes a Rec estimate by creel count. I am told but have not dug in to it yet that but the numbers in the spread sheet show 873 in U which means the nets landed right on the move with the rain but not so in the rest of the bay.

That is the good news so now the bad. These numbers put to sound like two locomotives doing a head on......


Predicted: HOR NOR
569 6216

Actual 179 2206
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#979987 - 09/22/17 09:38 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Jake Dogfish Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/24/00
Posts: 544
Loc: Des Moines
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy

It is simple cause and effect for any animal. How do you make a hatchery or wild run non biters? Use a hook & line that steadily removes the most aggressive and over time wella they don't bite well. How do you take a average 12 lb Coho to 6 to 8? Net them with a small mesh for several generations allowing a greater percentage in the pool of small fish and you will decrease size with time just as the marine fisheries are dictating the shrinking Chinook. This not new folks and was one of the first things I learned working with fish. The first thing Harry taught me was all things with salmon are proportional and when humans alter the gene flow things happen. This is not rocket science guys. Humans have been doing this to many creatures for a few thousand years. Seems somehow when it comes to fish we want to ignore fact and just plain basic common sense. Enviros blame habitat and many the hatcheries but the truth is WE are the problem because KILLING them for food and fun. Which I might add is compounded by a state government in denial and a governing agency that is lost in the wilderness.

I am a crazy environmentalist, but I agree both gill nets and sport fishing have had a impact.

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#979998 - 09/22/17 12:30 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6876
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Fishing, in all of its means and manners.

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#980019 - 09/23/17 07:35 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Jake Dogfish Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/24/00
Posts: 544
Loc: Des Moines
Not all fishing methods cause fish to shrink.
Maybe it's time for slot limits?
Unfortunately that's not going to work with the "wall of death" technique.

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#980021 - 09/23/17 08:09 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2824
Loc: Marysville
Jake -
An alternative for at least hatchery Chinook would be selection of the brood stock that return to the hatchery rack. Many of the hatcheries have significant surplus fish to their needs so there should be ample potential breeders to select from for either older or faster growing individuals.

Have been surprised how little support the idea of selecting for large hatchery fish has received.

Curt

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#980025 - 09/23/17 10:33 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Smalma]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

I am trying to think if I recall that being done and the only time I recall is when Manny did the QIN work. Of coarse Manny was a go getter. As I recall his favorite saying was " we can do that ". Just did not let BS slow him down at least while working for t he QIN.
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#980028 - 09/23/17 12:42 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6876
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
There is more to fish than size. Fisheries select for return timing. We did that purposefully and accidentally on the Fraser in order to optimize the production of fish on the spawning grounds.

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#980036 - 09/24/17 03:08 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Hell CM WDFD used run compression in a lot of places including the Chehalis. For those who do not know how you do it is simple. If your goal is to build up the early part of the run you simply take your eggs all off the front. Over several generations you get a higher percentage of the run early as your hatchery production is from parents likely to return early. You can do it the other way around also if one wished. Timing can help size also as Coho that enters now vs one in latter part of Nov has had more time to bulk up on the upwelling.

If talking Coho another way to mix things up is the size you rear them. WDFW goes to somewhere around 18 to 20 fish per lb at release as this will produce the greatest return of adults for $$$ spent on rearing. Now rear them larger a number of things happen. You get many more jacks, the adults will return bigger normally and you get the same amount of adults. Our hatcheries rear salmon just like they do trout. How do you the greatest number of fish for the cheapest price. Quality ( if size is your objective ) is not normally in the mix.

Release strategies also play into things. At the urging of a retired WDFW employee we tried volitional release with a twist. As we had a bunch of man made habitat for juveniles we pulled the screens but kept the pond watered up, kept feeding them a bit longer, and watched. To my amazement about 30% of the Chinook fry hung around in the pond then the habitat until the fall rains then booked. Why? No idea but it taught us a lesson to be sure. The lesson? Fish rearing needs are not necessarily the same as ours as ours are governed by many factors from space to money.


Edited by Rivrguy (09/24/17 05:29 AM)
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#980039 - 09/24/17 08:58 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6876
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Doc Donaldson did that run-time changing with his UW salmon. Essentially, they selected for early coho and late Chinook. So, the students were introduced to the pond with coho that were both smaller and not as "important" research-wise. Then, in November and December when we were more experienced and the weather and water were a damnsite cold the Chinook came in.

Ma Nature does it to. What survives to spawn is what produces the next generation and that survival includes size, return time, age at return, willingness to bite a hook, and probably a myriad of other aspects.

Atlantic salmon males in some streams responded to total fishing pressure (probably the marine gill net) by never smolting. The females needed the growth to get big eggs, but the sperm didn't need the added size.

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#980040 - 09/24/17 09:34 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4135
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Habitat also plays a role. Most do not know but the Late Coho in GH & Willapa are from the East Fork Satsop and primarily Bingham Cr. You a number of ES streams go dry in late Spring as the aqua-fur drops and do not water up until nearly Dec thus any Coho that was to spawn in those streams needed to be late. It is simple natural selection driving the adaptability. If you could water up those streams in Sept then the normal timed Coho would utilize it also and probably not to the benefit of the lates. Lates also have a much lower reproductive / survival rate than normal timed Coho here.
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#980075 - 09/25/17 06:06 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
bob r Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 289
Meanwhile, back on the Chehalis, does anyone know the tribal and comm. netting schedule yet? Melanie nailed a 21 1/4 coho on Saturday, biggest silver I've ever seen. There are fish being caught, but it's spotty as far as we've seen . Bob R

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