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#822148 - 02/11/13 10:52 PM 270 wsm
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


Who makes the best 270 wsm any suggestions?

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#822255 - 02/12/13 12:13 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
What do you mean by best? Are you hunting, competition, or collecting?


Edited by j 7 (02/12/13 12:13 PM)
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#822408 - 02/12/13 09:08 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


Hunting blacktail on the op and collecting

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#822409 - 02/12/13 09:09 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


just wanted to see if one brand was beter than another or if there were any personal choices

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#822417 - 02/12/13 09:34 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
snit Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1844
Loc: Wenatchee, WA
Been very happy with my Tikka T-3. I've killed a dozen deer, elk and a moose with it. Good adj trigger, smooth, very accurate. It will keyhole 3-shot groups if I do my part. 140gr Accubonds is all I shoot.
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#822425 - 02/12/13 10:04 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: snit]
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


Yea that tikka looks affordable and nice. Iv also heard good things about the rem and savage. Id kinda like to get a wallnut stock tho and realy like the x bolt.

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#822432 - 02/12/13 10:21 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


how far do you like to shoot that 140grain and how does it compare to a standard 270

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#822483 - 02/13/13 12:21 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
I dont know about the best but I've always wanted a brand new Browning BLR. Nice short barrel for creeping around the thickness of the OP and is nice to look at. I looked at getting one in 300 WSM but never followed through. Here is the link to one they make in 270 WSM.


http://www.browning.com/products/catalog...034&tid=009
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For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#822502 - 02/13/13 01:24 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
chrome/22 Offline
Captain C/22 - Team Stay Up Right!

Registered: 01/13/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Hurricane Ridge , Wa.
I'd go with with a Nosler. They make the perfect hunting machine.

http://www.nosler.com/rifles/tgr.aspx


c/22
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#822548 - 02/13/13 12:06 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
snit Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1844
Loc: Wenatchee, WA
Originally Posted By: Bigtrout15
how far do you like to shoot that 140grain and how does it compare to a standard 270


I had a BAR .270 and I loved the caliber, but didn't care for the trigger or the upkeep (couple of broken recoil springs). Fixed it up and traded it for the Tikka and some schwag.

The 140gr in the WSM shoot about like the 130. 2011 deer was 386 yards and 2012 deer was 402yards (shot last years in the back of the head).
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#822600 - 02/13/13 07:46 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: chrome/22]
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: chrome/22
I'd go with with a Nosler. They make the perfect hunting machine.

http://www.nosler.com/rifles/tgr.aspx


c/22


Alittle over my wanted budget but very nice. Think im going to have to go hold a few to see what one is most comfortable. I held the x bolt and the savage and although i like the savage price tag more the stock on the browning is slim and makes it feel light, the triger is very nice, and finish is awesome. thanks gents

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#822631 - 02/13/13 10:11 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Check out the Kimbers and Weatherbys. I would also consider a regular .270 and not a wsm. There are a lot more rounds available from a lot more MFG's and for a better price. WSM's are sort of a marketing gimmick if you ask me.
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#822653 - 02/13/13 11:25 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: NickD90]
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


yea is almost 300fps more and 500ft.-lbs more muzzel energy its got enough to take down elk. judging by the balistics chart and iv heard its enough for elk but. I dont think its a gimmick its not to much different than the 270win but enough to take a look at. The cost of the ammo sucks compared to the 270win. But the cost of having fun its worth it.


Edited by Bigtrout15 (02/13/13 11:42 PM)

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#822654 - 02/13/13 11:26 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: NickD90]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
If you reload, there are tons of suitable bullets out there. I have a selection of 100-150, so if you decide you want to try a few, let me know.

TTSX in 110gr are proven killers and really hold together. Accubonds are also an excellent choice.
_________________________
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#822658 - 02/13/13 11:31 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
redhook
Unregistered


why buy a .270 wsm pay up the yang for ammo for that performance, when you could get a .300 win, have better performace across the board, and the ammo isnt near the same price?


the WSM's are gimmicks... and expensive ones to boot....

edit, forgot to add ammo that i enjoy... if not reloads done by a compitent person, i like the Hornady SuperFormance rounds, and the Winchester red tips.... both are kinda spendy, but we arent plinking with magnum calibers a ton...


Edited by redhook (02/13/13 11:36 PM)

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#822664 - 02/13/13 11:49 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
SundayMoney Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1086
Loc: Everett
Originally Posted By: redhook



the WSM's are gimmicks... and expensive ones to boot....



Magnum performance in a short action rifle (light,handy) is a gimmick....right.

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#822666 - 02/13/13 11:57 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: SundayMoney]
redhook
Unregistered


what are you shooting with magnum calibers that requires quick follow up shots, unless you are a garbage shot?


also, the bolt throw on WSM's isnt some remarkable difference between that and standard Mags... Ultra Mags yes, but they are another breed themselves...

its a gimmick, a new "round" got made, along with a sh!t ton more guns...

if you need quick follow up shots, you may as well just get an AR-10 and hunt with that, the .308 will do everything the .270 WSM will do in this country/state...

oh yeah, the ammo is pretty cheap per say as well...

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#822669 - 02/14/13 12:06 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
SundayMoney Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1086
Loc: Everett
Quick follow up shots... rofl

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#822670 - 02/14/13 12:15 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: SundayMoney]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
I meant to say marketing gimmick to sell more guns and higher priced ammo, especially a .270 WSM. A regular ol' .270 is prefect for deer, but a bit light for Elk unless you are within 250 - 300 yards and are a good shot. I've taken 4 Elk with a .270, but would only shoot when the animal was close and the shot was perfectly presented. If you want a magnum, just get a .300 and be done with it. I just don't buy that a WSM's slightly better performance is worth the much higher costs of ownership.

If you want a light and handy rifle:

http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/model-84l/mountain-ascent
Or slightly heavier
http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/model-84l/montana

The .280 Ackley Imp would SMOKE a .270 WSM and its a long action rifle.

RH - .300 WM's are a belted round that is fussy to reload and can only be done 2-3 times before it blows out. If someone is not a reloader and only plans to shoot factory ammo, its just about the perfect gun for any NA game.

For my personal tastes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Ol' 30-06. It's taken more game than any other round in NA. I'm not a big believer on long shots on game (300+), so the 06 is perfect and cost effective. Its heavier than the .270 and doesn't mule kick like the .300 and ammo can be found anywhere (present circumstances excluded)

But hey, to each his own. All of the above calibers are great choices for Elk and Deer, so shoot what you are comfortable with - which is the most important thing...
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#822671 - 02/14/13 12:17 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: SundayMoney]
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


id just stick to the 30-06 if that were the case redhook. Redd_Daetona i looked at those Christensen Arms rifles and im impressed but didnt see any prices. very unique for a synthetic stock and it looks like they put a muzzle break on their rifles? Looks spendy and some of their 1911s are realy cool. Yea i agree with ya nick how hard is that 280 ammo to come by havent heard alot about them I guess if i were reloading them.


Edited by Bigtrout15 (02/14/13 12:46 AM)

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#822675 - 02/14/13 12:26 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: NickD90]
SundayMoney Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1086
Loc: Everett
Originally Posted By: NickD90


If you want a light and handy rifle:


http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/model-84l/montana



A Montana is exactly what I was looking for in a rifle. Thats why I own one. 5lbs 1oz

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#822676 - 02/14/13 12:34 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
redhook
Unregistered


06 is a great round as well... the one rifle of my dads is about 5 1/2 pounds and a pain in the ass to shoot after a couple shots... no pussy plates allowed...

my personal all time favorite, is the 7mm Remington Mag (.284 cal), sold my 700 a while back, and plan on even 1 upping that gun..

what are you wanting this specific caliber for? the weight? the bolt throw? the minimal gain in performance?

why considering the .270 wsm?

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#822683 - 02/14/13 12:49 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


Small enough for deer large enough for elk with the ability to still be a flat shooting accurate rifle. 06 does that prety well but looking to get another rifle with the tax return coming

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#822684 - 02/14/13 12:50 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: SundayMoney]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
I was born and raised in the high country of CO and when hunting at 10,000 - every last ounce counts. The Kimber Ascent is beyond light (almost too light). The muzzle brake is removable and comes with a collar to protect the threads when not in use. Kimbers have the best, non-custom triggers on the market today. They are ridiculously crisp, break easily and have zero creep. Montana's are the same rifle only they haven't been fluted to reduce weight (5 oz difference). But you'll save a lot of money going with the Montana if 5 oz are not that important to you. FYI - TIkka T3, Weatherby Vanguards I and II's are plastic composite stocks, while Kimbers, Noslers and SAKO are a beaded Kevlar or fiber re-enforced blend. You get what you pay for. FYI - the Weatherby Vanguard II is probably the best low priced rifle on the market today. Of course, all of that changes when you move back to wood.


.280's are just flat awesome. They have way better ballistics than the .270 (regular or WSM) and they are tack drivers. In fact, .280's probably have the best all around ballistics when all factors are considered. I'm much more comfortable shooting at a bull with a .280 than I am a .270. The rounds are cheaper than the .270 WSM and selection is just about the same. Both can be harder to find than something like a 06 or .300 winny. Stick with Nosler partitions or Barnes X and anything you shoot at will drop.

If I were you, I would seriously look at either the Weatherby Vanguard II or Kimber Montana (or the Nosler) based on what you can afford in a .280 or 30-06.

Hope this help and hope you find the right gun for YOU. Let us know what you end up with and how it shoots for you. best of luck,

Edit: didn't see that you already have an 06. Get the .280!!!!


Edited by NickD90 (02/14/13 01:01 AM)
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#822688 - 02/14/13 12:59 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: NickD90]
Bigtrout15
Unregistered


much appreciated all of the info will help. Thanks guys

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#822697 - 02/14/13 01:55 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
If the .280 has an advantage over the .270wsm, then I assume it would be the bullet selection ? Seems like comparing the .270 with the .270wsm would be apples to apples, and same with .280 vs 7wsm. I think flat shooting, and quick follow up shots were both mentioned, what about wind ?

Personally, my next big game rifle is going to be a Kimber Montana in 7wsm...even if I have to buy a different caliber and have it rebarreled. I have not held a Montana in my hands, but have read enough reviews to make the decision...........and they seem to move pretty well on the used market.

.30'06 ? I should buy one of those too, just too have it laying around.

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#822706 - 02/14/13 03:20 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
The .280 rounds generally have better pricing over .270 wsm (on par with standard .270 rounds). The ballistics are also better than the .270 regular (or WSM) or the 30-06 (velocity and ft.lbs). Its an ultra, ultra flat shooter - proably the flatest there is or that I have any knowledge on. It doesn't kick like a .300, so its a very attractive middle ground between the above calibers. I took my largest bull (6x6) with a .280 Remington

Wait until you shoot a Kimber Montana, you'll never want another sub .300 rifle. I've fired the .243, .270, .280 and .300. I've never fired the Kimber Ascent which is even lighter. I've heard that the 30-06 Ascent kicks like a .300 winny which is why they incorporated the muzzle break. I am a thin guy and don't pack a lot of meat on my shoulders. The Montana .300 was fun for about 5 rounds and then I wanted to put it down. If I ever buy a .300, it will be a heavier wood stocked rifle to help eat up some the recoil. If you can't practice on a gun without getting overly flinchy, its hard to shoot it well in the field. I would not want to fire the .338 Montana. No thanks.
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#822711 - 02/14/13 07:42 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: NickD90]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Pricing ? I can't imagine the price of .270 being noticably different than .280. As far as ballistics goes, the .270, .280, and .30'06 are the same case...the only difference is the diameter of the bullet. Velocity is tangible for comparison, but ft.lbs is the stuff of mermaids and tooth ferries. I think you would have to choose the most appropriate bullet for the task...from what is actually available, and then compare ballistic coeficient and velocity. Still don't see how any of the '06 cases is going to do anything to compare with the wsm case..............and the wsm operates from a short action. I am sure all the rifles we're talking about recoil a noticable amount, but I have other rifles for high volume shooting that don't kick.

I have shot some pretty heavy rifles with excellent McMillan stocks...I think wood is the the very last choice of material for a stock on a hunting rifle. There is plenty of weight to be had through barrel contour and stock design, but in the end each of us has to like our own rifle...not anybody else.

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#822718 - 02/14/13 09:56 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Some good points Oregonian. I looked up the following for round pricing:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Winchester-Ballistic-Silvertip174-Rifle-Ammunition/739976.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3D.280%2Bammo%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=.280+ammo&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products

The .270 is slightly cheaper than the .280, but neither are as expensive as the .270 wsm. Short actions are nice for follow up shots, but I try to shoot with only one shot in mind. I wonder if anyone has ever timed a long action against a short action for the difference? Maybe that would splitting hairs?

I agree that modern composite stocks are the way to go in wet and rainy Washington. Wood is fine for drier climates, like my old hunting days in Colorado. Ultimately, I care more about weight reduction for long humps at altitude. I used to have an ultra light, wood stocked .280 remington pack rifle that was just a sweet heart. Should have never let her go! For me, the only reason to own a .300 or above would be for Moose and if I ever get lucky enough to draw a tag, I'll probably just have to suck it up and get a Weatherby or RUM and live with the PAIN! smile

Love talking & learning rifles. I know a bit or two, but there are many, many others that know much more than I do. To your point, the most important thing to know if to shoot what it takes to get the job done and what you are comfortable with.
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#822832 - 02/14/13 04:25 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: NickD90]
j 7 Offline
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Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
Pricing is a complicated formula of powder capacity, powder type, availability of the brass, and projectile. The .270 and .280 are both based off the same parent brass of the 06. Lots of 06 being made so lower cost .270 and .280 brass (just a matter of neck size). 270 and 280 have approximately the powder capacity and bullets a

270 wsm brass is made from the parent of .404 Jeffery and is a rather rare brass so the cost is more because its rarity and its bigger so there's more brass to pay for. 270 wsm has more powder capacity so more powder to pay for.

Projectile for either 27 or 28 are essentially the same as far as materials of copper and lead. Small price differences for similar grain pills.

As far as killin? Thats even a more complicated formula of velocity, bullet diameter, and bullet weight, and bullet construction. Bullet weight and diameter will be fixed and velocity depends on range. Some folks like to use ft-lbs as a gauge but it tells nothing about penetration. Sectional density is a better indicator of penetration as it considers both the bullet diameter and the weight. The theory is a higher sectional density at a given velocity will penetrate further. So for comparison lets assume the same bullet construction is used. At 140 grains the .27 caliber has a higher sectional density than the .28. At 150 grains the .27 is still more but the .28 is getting closer. But 140 and 150 are the high end of .27 caliber weights and the lower end of .28. Each of theses weights in the respective caliber travel about the same velocity (around 2900 fps). So the 270 with its heaviest bullets will out perform the 280 with its lightest bullets. But the 280 can handle bullets of more mass and much higher sectional density. So the 280 can take on bigger critters that have thicker chest cavity with its heavier bullets.

As you creep up the caliber chart diameter it becomes more an issue of pure mass than anything and sectional density dosent matter. For example a sectional density of a 175 grain .28 caliber and 450 grain .458 caliber are approximately the same. But the .28 traveling 500 fps more than the .458 will not penetrate as far. The 450 grains of projectile dominates at this point.
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For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#822842 - 02/14/13 04:48 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Originally Posted By: Redd_Daetona
DF,

Are you shooting the 110 TTSX bullets in the .270 Win, or the .270 WSM for deer?

Redd


6.8 SPC. A short .277 caliber round designed to fit into AR15's. Works just fine for deer with the 85's on up to the 150 PSP's that I have. Roughly the same power factor as a .30-30, but much better trajectory and bullet choices. A little undergunned for elk, but it would do the job.

I have a .280. Works fine, and I consider it equal to my '06 in the same firearm, both Remington 740's. Ammo cost doesn't really bother me too much, as I pretty much reload for everything I have. I need a few dies, but for the most part, I'm set.



_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#822854 - 02/14/13 05:28 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
You can load them upwards of 2700fps, as long as you watch for flat primers and swipes on the cases.

I have 1,000 of the Remington 130gr SP's and 2,000 of the Remington 115gr FMJ's. Our rifle likes them both.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#822855 - 02/14/13 05:29 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Dogfish]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
J7 said what I couldn't. Thanks man...
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#822901 - 02/14/13 08:03 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: NickD90]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Originally Posted By: NickD90
J7 said what I couldn't. Thanks man...



No, he didn't say anything, and I'm being generous. The construction of the projectile is paramount to it's downrange performance, and he is talking ticks and tacks without even addressing the starting line. I think I will bow out and let you gentlemen do as you please.


p.s. The part about the follow up shot (s), that was cracking me up still, from when I read it the first time...that's why I mentioned that you guys had already covered it. Who dreams that stuff up anyway ?


Edited by Oregonian (02/14/13 08:19 PM)
Edit Reason: follow up shot !

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#822935 - 02/14/13 10:23 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
OK Oregonian. Before you leave - may I ask, besides reduced rifle weight, which we have already covered and length of bolt throw (which affects "time" to cycle) - just what are the benefits of a short action specifically? If not for "speed" of follow up shots? Please educate us. Thanks,
_________________________
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#822942 - 02/14/13 10:55 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: NickD90]
redhook
Unregistered


follow up shots should be non existant when hunting large animals... period... that means bolt throw, and the .01 seconds you gain by the shorter action mean absolutely nothing...

penetration is a big thing when it comes to large game, but you dont want "blow through", with minimal damage... so you want a bullet that retains its mass throughout penetration, causing the MOST DAMAGE without blowing the meat apart, personally i like the Barnes TSX bullets, ive only used them on animals from a 7mm Mag, but they were very well performing... they were used on Coyotes tho, so the damage was massive regardless... alot of friends of mine tho run them for elk and deer... and really like them...

regarding WSM rifles.. how much weight do you really think your "losing" by getting that rifle vs a standard cartridge rifle? were talkin a pound tops.. MAYBE 2 with the newer rifles out today... most long range hunting guns have scopes on them, so you are adding weight anyways... then theres also barrels, some guys run bull barrels, some guys run the lighter cow barrels (copyright B.S.).... bull barrels are heavier obsiously...

the only reason WSM's dont "kick as much" and are light, is because of the round itself... its a lower performance round basically but with "magnum" capabilities..... at the muzzle....

the bullets are lighter, they are gonna fly faster... for a minute... they also drop off on the FTLBS quicker than heavier bullets that are retaining their speed evenly, not losing it...

fast and light might beat slow and heavy to a certian point... but when you get fast and just right, you have rounds like the 6.5-284 Norma or the .300 Hulk... when you start fiddle fartin around on both lines of fast and slow and the other of those 2, you start getting rounds like the 7mm Mag, .300 Mag, ect ect ect...

weight reduction also increases recoil to an extent.. the WSM's dont punch as much because the bullet is lighter, even tho its faster its lighter, therefore less blow back recoil from the shots... lighter loses momentum at some point...

you want light, fast and accurate for target shooting... for killing, you want accurate, and knock down power... which can only be acheived by speed, and weight... but the speed must be maintainable...

if you want a new rifle with your money, check out a Remington 700 in 7mm Rem Mag... BDL, ADL, SPS, PSS, Sendero, ect ect ect, you wont be dissapointed... i would be comfortable with that rifle in that caliber over any other on the planet...

these are all my opinions, take them with a splash of pickle juice...

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#822950 - 02/15/13 12:08 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
Originally Posted By: Oregonian
Originally Posted By: NickD90
J7 said what I couldn't. Thanks man...



No, he didn't say anything, and I'm being generous.


Oh yeah! Well its better than Redhook.



Originally Posted By: Oregonian
I think I will bow out before I out myself as a closet core lokt fan


I knew it all along
_________________________
For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#822952 - 02/15/13 12:20 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Originally Posted By: redhook
follow up shots should be non existant when hunting large animals... period... that means bolt throw, and the .01 seconds you gain by the shorter action mean absolutely nothing...

penetration is a big thing when it comes to large game, but you dont want "blow through", with minimal damage... so you want a bullet that retains its mass throughout penetration, causing the MOST DAMAGE without blowing the meat apart, personally i like the Barnes TSX bullets, ive only used them on animals from a 7mm Mag, but they were very well performing... they were used on Coyotes tho, so the damage was massive regardless... alot of friends of mine tho run them for elk and deer... and really like them...

regarding WSM rifles.. how much weight do you really think your "losing" by getting that rifle vs a standard cartridge rifle? were talkin a pound tops.. MAYBE 2 with the newer rifles out today... most long range hunting guns have scopes on them, so you are adding weight anyways... then theres also barrels, some guys run bull barrels, some guys run the lighter cow barrels (copyright B.S.).... bull barrels are heavier obsiously...

the only reason WSM's dont "kick as much" and are light, is because of the round itself... its a lower performance round basically but with "magnum" capabilities..... at the muzzle....

the bullets are lighter, they are gonna fly faster... for a minute... they also drop off on the FTLBS quicker than heavier bullets that are retaining their speed evenly, not losing it...

fast and light might beat slow and heavy to a certian point... but when you get fast and just right, you have rounds like the 6.5-284 Norma or the .300 Hulk... when you start fiddle fartin around on both lines of fast and slow and the other of those 2, you start getting rounds like the 7mm Mag, .300 Mag, ect ect ect...

weight reduction also increases recoil to an extent.. the WSM's dont punch as much because the bullet is lighter, even tho its faster its lighter, therefore less blow back recoil from the shots... lighter loses momentum at some point...

you want light, fast and accurate for target shooting... for killing, you want accurate, and knock down power... which can only be acheived by speed, and weight... but the speed must be maintainable...

if you want a new rifle with your money, check out a Remington 700 in 7mm Rem Mag... BDL, ADL, SPS, PSS, Sendero, ect ect ect, you wont be dissapointed... i would be comfortable with that rifle in that caliber over any other on the planet...

these are all my opinions, take them with a splash of pickle juice...




I quoted this, so that I would be sure to get a few cracks at digesting all of it...in case there was a fire or somethin'. Other than that, I'm pretty sure I have nothing further to contribute !

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#822956 - 02/15/13 12:30 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3405
Loc: Island Time
I'm writing this shi.t down so slow down guys....
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#822957 - 02/15/13 12:32 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: RowVsWade]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Cheers !

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#822960 - 02/15/13 12:36 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
That is either some of the best sarcasm ever penned, or WTF ! LOL

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#822967 - 02/15/13 12:53 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
redhook
Unregistered


i have no problems being wrong

if im wrong, state where im wrong at

show where im wrong at

or are you just messing with me?

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#822971 - 02/15/13 01:03 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
I'm out. Not gonna play the game.

Bigtrout - good luck finding your new weapon. Hope you enjoy whatever it is you end up with and that it shoots true for you. Cheers,
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#823020 - 02/15/13 11:14 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
SundayMoney Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1086
Loc: Everett
RH,

Which action would you believe to be more stiff,short or long?

Would a stiffer action help accuracy or hinder it?

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#823072 - 02/15/13 02:29 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Semi autos suck at accuracy. wink




Two separate 3-round groups @ 100 yards, with a scope adjustment made between the two groups.

Barrel, bullet, load, glass, shooter. Not necessarily in that order.
_________________________
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They call me POODLE SMOLT!

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#823081 - 02/15/13 03:23 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Dogfish]
redhook
Unregistered


im not sure honestly... as action has nothing to do with it when the round is locked in the pipe... action also doesnt do anything when the bullet is flying down range...

that all becomes bullet design, flight characteristics, weight, and speed...

why do i say that?

stock Model 700, action decent, fairly accurate out of the box...

savage model 10/110, 11/111 ect, bolt is sloppy, more accurate out of the box than said 700...

difficult to say...

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#823089 - 02/15/13 04:14 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Why do I keep coming back to this thread ?

Redhook, you seem like a decent guy, but it would be easier to stay in a discussion with you if you would seek knowledge rather than try to invent it.

Originally Posted By: redhook
im not sure honestly... as action has nothing to do with it when the round is locked in the pipe... action also doesnt do anything when the bullet is flying down range...



When the round is "locked in the pipe", the action IS the lock. When the round is fired the action is subjected to quite a bit of stress, the recoil lug and to a lesser degree (in a rifle with proper bedding) the action screws, transmit energy to the stock, which then transmits the energy to the shooter. Think of all of these as spokes in a wheel, or links in a chain, all potential places for variations to enter the equasion. The is an article from years ago about the Remington M700 that is good reading for guys interested in accurate rifles, I'm not sure of the author off the top of my head, but Gale McMillan was part of it, I am sure if you google Gale McMillan Remington 700 you could locate it.

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#823091 - 02/15/13 04:26 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Dogfish]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Nice groups, that's gotta be some kind of an AR platform...?

I have had a few ar's, but never could get used to the alignment of the scope/stock/cheek weld. I guess I wanted the ar to feel like a 700 too much. Amazing accuracy potential though with the right parts...as you obviously know.

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#823092 - 02/15/13 04:30 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
redhook
Unregistered


if i seek knowledge, i get called a know it all, and that i googled it, if i give my opinion, well, you see....

i thought he was talking about the bolt being sloppy or not, obviously it has to be locked in tight when closed, or the gun would be a peice of sh!t...

what i was saying, in my opinion, is that when the bullet starts to make its way down the tube, its not so much about action anymore, its about bullet design, well now we have rifling, crown, ect... once it exits the tube, action has nothing to do with it...

so,

tight action, yes i suppose that would contribute to how accurate a rifle is...

bolt throw/length, has nothing to do with accuracy...

again, pickle juice...

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#823117 - 02/15/13 06:30 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Originally Posted By: Oregonian
Nice groups, that's gotta be some kind of an AR platform...?

I have had a few ar's, but never could get used to the alignment of the scope/stock/cheek weld. I guess I wanted the ar to feel like a 700 too much. Amazing accuracy potential though with the right parts...as you obviously know.


16" bull barreled match grade Oly Arms ML-2 AR-15. Factory built gun, not a kit or franken gun. Inexpensive BSA 4-16x44 "catseye" scope. 55gr nosler moly coated ballistic tips, 27.5 grains TAC, 2.260" COAL, LC case trimmed to .223 length, WSRP primer, Lee factory crimp die. Loaded progessively on my Dillon 650.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

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#823163 - 02/15/13 09:33 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Trigger job in a match grade rifle is an unspoken requirement. All of my AR's have either had trigger jobs (as in done by competent gunsmiths) or they have a Jard, Timney, or other equivalent NM trigger group in them.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#823181 - 02/15/13 10:40 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
Originally Posted By: Oregonian
........if you would seek knowledge rather than try to invent it.


I'll try to seek some to set an example. So in the post where I went on about sectional density and was acused of not saying anything. I think I get what youre saying by not addressing the starting line. Its because once the bullet enters the animal it changes shape, mass, and speed as it goes through the body. Therefore the sectional density of the projectile changes while inside the critter. If the projectile comes apart, it becomes more projectiles, slows way down, and sectional density decreases rapidly and wont penetrate as far. If it stays together and holds its mass then the sectional density wont change as rapidly and will penetrate deeper. I think what I said before was true until the point of impact. Is this closer?
_________________________
For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#823203 - 02/16/13 12:31 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
I think it is closer, and I think if a discussion of terminal performance has to end at the instant of impact, then it isn't really a discussion of anything.

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#823208 - 02/16/13 01:00 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
I don't know why more people aren't interested in the effect of the wind, assuming you have and accurate rifle and ammo, a lazer rangefinder, and some system of compensating for bullet drop, the only variables are shooter and wind (shooter's ability to read and compensate). Shooting a high B.C. bullet at a high velocity puts as much in your corner as you can get. Sure you can kill ______________with a .22 Hornet or an '06.........if you can hit it. How many days, in the fall, have you been up in the mountains and not had enough of a breeze to keep the bugs down ? Go to JBMballistics and plug in the data for your hunting load, and see how much a ten mph, full value, breeze will do to you at 500 yards. I like to think I will be able to guess the wind within 50% accuracy, but I'm not saying I can do it.

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#823218 - 02/16/13 02:53 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
I need to dig out my collection of recovered bullets. Sectional density doesn't mean too much on a bullet that disintegrates on impact. A bullet that expands to twice its diameter and travels through 30"+ of animal and loses 3 grains of weight matters much more.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#823219 - 02/16/13 03:30 AM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Dogfish]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
We could dismiss a large part of the question by indicating a bullet that expands and retains it's weight/integrity.

How will we decide how much of this ft/lbs is enough ? We probably know more is better...to a point, but what trade-offs to make ?

I am far more concerned with making a good shot than with thinking the bullet will run out of gas between the hide and the vitals.

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#823256 - 02/16/13 01:19 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
The trade-off is friction and hydraulic shock. Larger surface area means more friction which relates loss in velocipy. But, a large surface area is also going to relate to more hydraulic shock because the ft-lbs are distributed over a larger surface area. I think the right balance has come with the solid copper or copper alloy bullets. They get a nice increase in size and the X's make that nice flower pattern which actually is less surface area than the traditional coveted mushroom. So the flower petals cut more than push and retain their weight and velocipy better. Just an awesome bullet imo.

The two deer I have killed with X's. One was an ill advised shot where I hit him square in the back of knee and it just exploded his knee. F'er bled out in a hurry, I mean a real hury. This years deer was a perfect shot presentation and a perfect shot through the vitals. A hole about the size of my pinky on the entrance and a hole about the size of my thumb on the exit. Inside the vital region was nothing but pink liquified goo. Never recovered the bullet just the critter. The one thing I don't like is that I haven't quite achieved the accuracy I know I capable of with them. I think I need play with seating depth more than I have.

Put that into comparison with the one I shot with NosBT's (90's version). Took three shots, some chasing around, and I F'd up some meat in the process. I'll never do that again.
_________________________
For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#823266 - 02/16/13 02:05 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
I would rather not see stories of gruesome injuries and lingering deaths of game animals on the internet. It seems an experience like that would motivate a guy to get some practice with his rifle. Practice does not mean burning powder with a rifle bolted down to a lead sled, or from a bench rest, but actually shooting the rifle. All this talk of ballistics and terminal performance is a joke if we can't accurately place the bullet to begin with. (starting line).

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#823271 - 02/16/13 02:58 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
I agree but its hard to practice for "sh1t happens".
_________________________
For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#823275 - 02/16/13 03:10 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Well, it isn't very hard to edit replies on PiscatorialPursuits.com...

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#823278 - 02/16/13 04:01 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
Not sure what you mean but I cant tell stories about ballistics gel if that's what you're implying. After all we are talking about killing game here right?
_________________________
For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#823279 - 02/16/13 04:13 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
redhook
Unregistered


no, he means dont tell stories about being a hack and blowing a knee apart, or shooting an animal 3 times while chasing it around and blowing the meat to sh!t in the process....

if ya cant hit at distance, get closer... there is nothing cool about wounding an animal from distance, vs dropping an animal from 100 yards dead in its tracks...

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#823281 - 02/16/13 04:20 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Originally Posted By: j 7
Not sure what you mean but I cant tell stories about ballistics gel if that's what you're implying. After all we are talking about killing game here right?


We could probably do without you bragging about "F'd up some meat" getting numerous bullets into a live deer running around. It's probably just me, but I think those kinds of stories are inappropriate.

Any discussion of ballistics or terminal performance, assumes some discretion behind the trigger, whether keyboard or rifle.

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#823285 - 02/16/13 04:55 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Oregonian]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
Yeah, like I'm the only guy that's ever happened to. I'm not gona sugar coat it, lie, or only tell you about the good times. The knee job deer died faster than the perfect shot deer and it didn't ruin an ounce of meat (slam dunk). You dont know anything about the distance or scenario so please dont assume. The point was that a better bullet had a better outcome and quicker death implying better terminal performance.

The first shot on the 3-shot deer was a great shot in the shoulder it just didn't kill him. Second was at about 15 yards when he jumped up and took off. I tried to get him down before he went in some real thick brush and bramble. Off-hand instinctive shot and that's where I ruined some of the meat. Third shot was point blank to end it. So now its not as bad as you think. The point was that it was a very shittty bullet selection for the job at hand. The bullet came apart well before it could do its job on the first shot implying bad terminal performance.

Now, RH, I will gladly read your story about the deer you shot, that didn't bleed, or suffer, and how strawberry shortcake and the frickin care bears packed it out for ya.
_________________________
For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#823287 - 02/16/13 05:09 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Wow. You've certainly removed all doubt.

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#823288 - 02/16/13 05:12 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
redhook
Unregistered


better bullet had better performance?

you blew its fvckin leg apart!!!!

you would die too if i blew your leg apart... theres these things called femoral arteries... i suppose everyone should go shoot animals in the legs now correct?

if you have to shoot a deer 3 times to kill it, there are 2 things going on... you suck as a shooter, or the gun you have isnt powerfull enough to do the job with 1 shot...

running through the woods chasing a wounded deer taking pop shots at it also isnt safe for other hunters in the area...

might be a tad overkill on the caliber, but at the distance, not so much....1 shot, 1 dead deer



i personally havent shot a deer, only coyotes, thinkin i might go for deer this year tho... anyways, never needed more than 1 shot (besides a miss on a moving animal at nearly 700 yards away), never tried to blow its leg off, and surely never chased it around pumping lead into it...

all im saying, is be prepared... shoot once... dont take stupid shots... make the 1 count like its the only round you have... you are more than welcome to join me at the range any time you would like, we can BS about bullets there too, the guys are very knowledgable...

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#823290 - 02/16/13 05:37 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
Originally Posted By: redhook


i personally havent shot a deer


Then maybe you should STFU.

Femoral arteries are supplied by the heart through a system. Whats the difference where you make a serious leak in it. I dont hear you bitchin about the one I shot in the heart. I'm not bragging, I'm just being honest, I said it was an I'll advised shot but I took it. I am human.

So how do feel about randomly scattering projectiles at an animal and seeing where they hit? Like maybe duck hunting for example. You guys want to talk about about gruesome death. By chance it gets hit in the wing, chased by a dog, bit by the dog, and then its neck is broken. Next bird comes you drop it dead and the dog gets it. Next bird comes along, you see feathers come off and it keeps flying, then way off in the distance it drops way out the range of the dog or you and you loose that bird. This is an every day scenario during the duck season and its widely accepted as the method to do it. Did you know that its also acceptable to hunt deer with OO-buck. Gee 9 random pellets with no idea of where they will hit.

Its obvious you dont know shitttt about huntin or killin in any capacity.
_________________________
For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#823291 - 02/16/13 05:46 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: j 7]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: j 7

Its obvious you dont know shitttt about huntin or killin in any capacity.

He knows about killin'
The 'Possum and the Hatchet" story is in the archives.




smile
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK

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#823293 - 02/16/13 06:00 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: Direct-Drive]
redhook
Unregistered


your right, everyone should start taking knee shots on deer...

and running through the woods with high powered rifles shooting at wounded animals since they cant drop them on the first shot...

AGAIN, if its too far for you, MOVE CLOSER... if ya cant kill it with a 30-30, use a .270 or 06... if ya cant kill it at 300 yards, test your true hunting skills and get in a 100 yard scenario... or QUIT HUNTING...

fvckin justifying blowing a deers leg apart as a good means of harvesting it... did you help make this video?




STEP UP YOUR GAME... get your skills set before you start shooting animals again please, for gods sake atleast...

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#823301 - 02/16/13 06:56 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
Originally Posted By: Oregonian

Redhook, you seem like a decent guy, but it would be easier to stay in a discussion with you if you would seek knowledge rather than try to invent it.



Originally Posted By: Oregonian
I'm pretty sure I have nothing further to contribute !


The more that I have interacted with RH and the O-man in this thread, I have come to realize how true the above quotes are. RH is inventing calibers, distances, and situations. The O-man was OK during the technical discussion and even a little informative but when it got bloody and real; he got sqeemish. So, if they cant contribute than neither can I.
_________________________
For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#823302 - 02/16/13 07:02 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
SundayMoney Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1086
Loc: Everett
Originally Posted By: redhook


AGAIN, if its too far for you, MOVE CLOSER...


STEP UP YOUR GAME... get your skills set before you start shooting animals again please, for gods sake atleast...


Says the guy lobbing rounds at coyotes at 700yds. rofl

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#823303 - 02/16/13 07:05 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: SundayMoney]
SundayMoney Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1086
Loc: Everett
The guys that claim to have never blown a shot (miss or wound) are either liars,or haven't shot at many animals.

Shidt happens.

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#823305 - 02/16/13 07:18 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: SundayMoney]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
I must have missed the part where anyone claimed to have never blown a shot, and everyone else seems to have missed the point when I suggested a little discretion goes a long ways...same as common sense. There is a time and a place for just about everything, I don't think this is the place for describing the results of poor shooting on game.

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#823306 - 02/16/13 07:21 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: SundayMoney]
redhook
Unregistered


i missed 1 shot, ONE, and i didnt wound it.... and honestly, i never plan on taking a shot like that again unless its on paper... because i could have wounded it, and thats not what you are supposed to do...

i also, never moved from my position in the ditch, i stayed right there, on the bipod, eye on the glass... second shot was lights out... all other coyotes from ranges of 100 feet to 600 yards were all taken with one shot, no misses... the majority of them were in the 2-400 yard range, i was also using a caliber that was pretty much over kill for an animal of that size, so even a shot just forward of where i really wanted it, would have killed it instantly anyways... but not completely blew it apart...

you get NO PERFORMANCE aspects when blowing a deers knee off... did you penetrate the full 2 inches to attain complete blow through? thats some serious penetration.... 2 whole inches...


fvckin up ONCE and making a mistake is one thing, continuing to do it is another... if you arent sure, dont take the shot... what happens if you miss and hit a rock in the woods and it smacks another hunter on the other side of the bowl?

i wasnt even being a dick either, j7s issue is he talked about it kinda braggish... like it was funny or something... its not funny... not cool, not amusing, none of that... i gave some advice, and he slobbered all over it and tried to justify blowing a deers leg off... i dont agree with that, so as O man said, dont brag about it on internet fishing/hunting boards... because there are bound to be people that dont agree with it...

again, j7, you are more than welcome to accompany me to the range, the guys there are very knowledgable about bullets and terminal performance... you might learn a thing or 10 from them, i know i have... you can come too SM...

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#823309 - 02/16/13 07:49 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
j 7 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1422
Loc: Your monitor
Originally Posted By: redhook


again, j7, you are more than welcome to accompany me to the range, the guys there are very knowledgable about bullets and terminal performance... you might learn a thing or 10 from them, i know i have... you can come too SM...


If what you have said in this thread is any indication of the "knowledge" I would receive at this "range"; then no fckn' way. If you think the "knowledge" you have obtained from this "range" is good; then you have been bamboozled.
_________________________
For some of us, a bad day of fishing is a bad day at work.

j7 2012

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#823312 - 02/16/13 08:03 PM Re: 270 wsm [Re: ]
SundayMoney Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1086
Loc: Everett
Originally Posted By: redhook


again, j7, you are more than welcome to accompany me to the range, the guys there are very knowledgable about bullets and terminal performance... you might learn a thing or 10 from them, i know i have... you can come too SM...


Come to the range for what? I know plenty about rifles,bullets and terminal performance thank you very much. Shooting at a range sucks anyways.

I simply find it funny that a guy thats never even killed a deer knows as much about killing them as you do.

I'm pulling an Oregonian and bailing on this retarded thread.

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The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

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