Anyone tried the T-20? I'm thinking of making up some tips and am curious how it will cast compared to the T-17. Will I need to use a higher grain head above it to get it to roll over? Not an expert and find it difficult to understand this stuff?

T-20? No, thanks. Break out the gear rod to fish that water!

I've never used anything over T-14, so can't provide you an answer on the T-20..
Just curious, what conditions or type of water are you trying to fish that would require T-20?
SF

The heaviest I have or have tried is T-14, and I have little use for it other than king fishing on the Kannektok. The heaviest Skagit heads have enough grains/foot to turn over T-14, but I don't think any manufactured fly line weighs 20 gr/ft. So turnover, if it occurs, won't be smooth. Like Stonefish, I wonder what a person would use T-20 for. As the grams per foot increase, T-* gets closer and closer to being glorified elongated pencil lead.

Sg

I gues my thought is, and I could be wrong, that the faster sink rate would allow better, longer, deeper coverage...dredging, on the swing. It could open up more water to swing closer to the bottom, where I seem to have greater success for winterrun.

Well, I agree that you need to get down to catch winter fish, but my opinion is that when you make a decision to swing flies, you are giving up your opportunity to effectively fish water deeper than about 6 feet. Using T-20 to try and reach deeper lies will likely result in more bursitis than fish (you'll be lucky to get 6" deeper than you would with T-14 unless you are using a full sink line), and casting it will be torture, at best. If you want to swing for steelhead, walk right by the water deeper than about 6 feet. My two cents. There's plenty of water on any river that holds fish and is less than 8 feet deep. Focus on that, or break out the gear rod (which I have been known to do).

I agree FleaFlicker, I have suffered and am recovering from tendonitus elbow, although not from casting. To gain opportunity to access that deeper water, so much that is past up as not swingable, technological advances make it difficult to resist trying to obtain that magical grab! I will cut some up and give it a try anyway. Thanks.

Salmosalar
I grew up chucking lead core, and although it sucked to cast, it produced. The next phase was deep water express which provided better castability but still was chuck and duck! The last few years I have got back into it and have discovered the great advances to cast better, and further to more and more water, that in the past was unfishable, hence my questions about T-20. I guess I need to venture on my own again to experiment with the new stuff. Thanks.

A lot of winter swingers wanting a long slow deep dredging swing are giving one of the new skagit intermediate heads a try. In doing so, most are finding out they actually only need a light to medium sink tip to get the depth they are looking for.

When selecting a skagit intermediate head, drop down 30 grains from your preferred skagit floating head grain weight.

Airflo, Rio and Scientific Anglers are all making two hand rod skagit intermediate heads now.

http://www.rajeffsports.com/skagit_int.php

http://www.rioproducts.com/fly-lines/spey/skagit/skagit-iflight/

http://buy.scientificanglers.com/spey/skagit-extreme-intermediate-head-with-loops.html


For single hand rods there is the Royal Wulff Ambush Intermediate integrated full line.

http://royalwulff.com/products/ambush-clear-head-line/

GG

Intermediate head sounds like a pretty good way to go, Gray Ghost. I suspect I would have a hard time with it, though, since I can't consistently work an upstream mend into my casts, and once an intermediate head has been on the water for more than a couple seconds, I bet there's no mending that bad boy.

Should work great for a better caster, though.

Not meaning to hijack, but now that intermediate has been brought up, I've been reading about incorporating intermediate Skagit heads. It just doesn't make sense to me. In fact it seems like a major step backwards, like to the time when full sinking lines were employed, with minimal ability to mean and control the presentation. Ever since then, the evolution of fishing deep sunk flies has progressed toward increased line control, with more floating line, and sinking tips of a length consistent with achieving the desired and necessary depth for an effective presentation.

I would love to see an intermediate Skagit head or other intermediate line expertly cast and fished so that I could see both the method of presentation and the type of water for which the line and method is applicable.

Same with T-20. Maybe it's because of so many years fishing with Wet Cell III and High Speed Hi-D, but anything more than 15' of type VI and I'm constantly hung on the stones most winter days. But I avoid fishing water much over 6' deep. I wonder how heavy a Skagit head is necessary to smoothly cast 15 or even 10' of T-20.

Sg

FleaFlicker02,

A skagit intermediate is not the best head choice for slightly upstream or straight across 90 degree swing cast presentations. It will not fish pocket water very well and can not be mended a lot. A skagit float is a better choice for these fishing situations.

The Airflo and Rio skagit intermediate heads have a floating rear section, allowing for a little bit more on the water mending.

A skagit intermediate is an excellent choice for the classic even speed wide broad fly swing water. It excels with downstream 45 degrees or more swing cast. Sometimes a basic roll cast is needed first to bring the head to the surface to make the cast. An aerial mend reach cast works well for the initial set up of the cast. One more quick mend can sometimes be made right after the cast. Then just steer/swim the head with rod tip movement from there. The nuances of the skagit intermediate can easily be mastered with just some on the water time.

GG

Thanks, GG. I'm not quite as poor a caster as I might have led on, but the thing I don't do consistently well is incorporating that slight upstream mend that allows the fly to lead the line through the swing into my casts while airborne. That's why I was thinking an intermediate head might be difficult for me to fish. The best casters I know can make the line land in just about any shape they like to maximize the effectiveness of their swings, which can be a tremendous advantage when fishing lies across varying currents. I'm sure I'll get better with more practice.

Thanks for the detailed info on the intermediate offerings. Good stuff.

I am fairly good at making one shape with my line consistently, the pile shape.

That one is definitely in my arsenal as well, Coley. Sad part is, I do it more as the day goes on.

I like the Skagit Intermediate idea. Seems like a comprmise between using T-20 to get deeper, and should be easier to cast. Also like the idea of slowing the presentation down by the end of the head being subsurface.

Question: I presently am using the 525 gr Skagit Flight SHD, 25.5' long by RIO, on a Sage ZA 7136, with 12' of T-17 added. Am able to cast it ok and like how it fishes. If wanting to try an Intermediate head, why drop 30 grains, especially if able to lghten up on the sink tip? As expensive this stuff is, I want to get it right the first time. Thanks for your input.

RUNnGUN,

Most skagit casters will drop down 30 grains from their preferred skagit float head weight because the skagit intermediate heads tend to load the rod quicker than skagit float heads. Most skagit intermediate heads are a foot or two shorter than skagit float heads for the same weight skagit head.

Thus a 30 grain less skagit intermediate head is still are a grain or two heavier per foot than a skagit float head 30 grains heavier.

For a Sage ZA 7136, the Airflo two-handed line to rod chart recommends a 480 skagit intermediate. Go by the recommended Switch weight, the Intermediate is not listed on the chart yet. Same concept though, drop down 30 grains for the Switch also.

http://www.rajeffsports.com/spey_chart.pdf

Some more info.

http://www.larimeroutfitters.com/airflo-skagit-intermediate-compact

http://www.larimeroutfitters.com/content/airflo-skagit-intermediate-compact

GG

Thank You for the info. I am going to give it a try. This subject can be rather complicated unless one gets the chance to play with all the new stuff that comes out every year.

11 to 13-feet of T-14 for swinging is plenty IMO. I have only had the need to fish T-17 in a couple of spots on the Queets and Cowlitz...

T-20 surely sounds interesting and might fill the niche/need on the Sound for lings this spring. Even opens up some new possibilities for chasing blackies on the fly too. Definitely duck and chuck!

I have to agree that T-14 seems to do the job when it comes to swinging deep. The biggest stick I use is a fast 13'6' 7 wt. And the biggest head I use is 12' of T-14, but usually I throw longer, less massive tips (type 3 medium MOW). This is with a 525 or 550 skagit short.

I'm also perplexed by an intermediate Skagit. But new tools sometimes need an interested party to show their usefulness.

If I absolutely must scrape bottom, it's probably going to happen with a long leader and my patented "#4 sink tip" (a collection of #4 split shot). But at this point I am basically drift fishing with a fly rod, I'm OK with this...but perhaps it is not relevant to a chat about sink tips.