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#877234 - 12/27/13 03:30 AM WAYWARD salmon…
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Buddy sent me this rather interesting link that shows quite graphically the migration pattern of adult sockeye and chinook tagged in Lower Cook Inlet.

Feel free to play around with the settings and the zoom to get a detailed look at these migration patterns.

Watch how one sockeye travels all the way Cook Inlet to the mouth of the Kenai before deciding it's lost, then backs out of the inlet, and finally finds its way to Kodiak Island.

One Kenai king swims 34 laps back and forth in front of the Kenai mouth for 17 days before finally committing to the river.

One exceptional king travelled south for 47 days all the way down to Tongue Point in the Columbia River estuary.

http://kintama.com/animator/CookInlet2013/
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#877275 - 12/27/13 04:01 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: eyeFISH]
The Moderator Offline
The Chosen One

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 14486
Loc: Tuleville
Got back my reports from the state as to where the tagged Puget Sound kings I caught were from - and these fish were mostly caught near between Edmonds and Shilshole.

-One was from the Chilliwack Hatchery in Canadia, off of the Vedder.


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#877311 - 12/27/13 09:31 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: The Moderator]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
That was mind boggling.
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#877315 - 12/27/13 09:47 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: Salman]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Fish behavior fascinates and this is an incredible window into that world.

Very interesting to see how consistent the behavior of the Chinook seems to be. They definitely prefer a very narrow zone at the mouth of the Kenai to swim laps in waiting for the time to be right, some of them waiting much longer than others.

That is part of the explanation for those lower river fire engines eh Doc?
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I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

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#877333 - 12/28/13 12:28 AM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: ColeyG]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: ColeyG


That is part of the explanation for those lower river fire engines eh Doc?


Most definitely.



Upon entering Cook Inlet, most of the tracked kings spent 2-3 weeks milling between the Kenai/Kasilof mouths. That first king (#9484) spent 19 days swimming laps in front of the Kenai mouth before committing to the river. King #9562 spent 25 days running the Kenai-Kasilof Relay before committing to the river on Aug 19.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#877334 - 12/28/13 12:53 AM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
I took it upon myself to record the migration of every tagged chinook in greater detail.

There were a total of 12 chinook tracked. Five of those fish (42%) never escaped to fulfill their life purpose… they simply never made it to the river. While it's remotely possible they may have succumbed to predators (beluga, salmon shark, seal) their most probable fate was entanglement in a drift gill net.

Of the seven fish that entered the Kenai, most spent 2-3 weeks milling in front of the Kenai-Kasilof mouths before finally committing to the river. Had there been sockeye set gillnets deployed along the beach corridor (they were closed by emergency order effective July 27) even fewer of these fish would have made it past the gauntlet. Certainly so for fish #9562 who burned 25 days in the Inlet mindlessly running the relay between Kenai and Kasilof before finally committing post haste to the Kenai on Aug 19.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#877342 - 12/28/13 02:31 AM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: eyeFISH]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Nearly half of the tracked fish (likely) dying in a net is a pretty grim statistic.

Considering all of the Kenai fish that are caught by the salty fleets both near and far, commercial and sport, and then of course the in river harvest issues...would we expect a situation and different than the one we have?"

I wish more people understood the incredible life history and unique nature of these beasts. Perhaps then we could appreciate them for what they are rather than seeing them as just "a fish," no different than the ditch pickle that eats a wriggling worm suspended under a red and white boober. Beauty and value are in the eye of the beholder certainly, but their name was chosen for a few good reasons.

Long live the kings.
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

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#877377 - 12/28/13 02:48 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: ColeyG]
cncfish Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 258
Loc: whale pass
so I wonder if that nook that swam to the Columbia was in a seals belly?

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#877397 - 12/28/13 04:52 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: cncfish]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
This discussion took off in a slightly different direction on the AK board…

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/show...l=1#post1353238

Regardless of who wants to blame who for the most precise and proximate cause, it's clear that the environment/conditions to which these kings are subjected in UCI is NOT conducive to their survival to the next life-stage…. inriver spawner.

Seems to me the fish did just fine traversing lower Cook Inlet. It wasn't until they encountered the gillnet fleet concentrated in front of the Kenai/Kasilof river mouths that any fish perished.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#877400 - 12/28/13 06:00 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
eyeFISH,

Doncha' know that gillnets don't harm salmon. Everthin' else harms salmon!

You know what they say about arguing with an idiot . . .

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#878121 - 01/02/14 07:26 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
I took it upon myself to record the migration of every tagged chinook in greater detail.

There were a total of 12 chinook tracked. Five of those fish (42%) never escaped to fulfill their life purpose… they simply never made it to the river.


The PS steelhead thread about survival bottlenecks brought me back to this thread about using acoustic telemetry in Alaska's Cook Inlet.

Well after getting called out repeatedly by a driftnetter on the AK board to show him that these fish were physically swimming thru waters actually open to gillnetting, I did an even more detailed review to confirm that was indeed the case.

In the process, I discovered a 13th fish.... but it, too never made it out of UCI to ascend the Kenai.

Todd was wondering if 70% immediate marine mortality on juvenile steelhead was good bad or normal? Who really knows without a baseline. But what about full grown adult spawners? What's an acceptable mortality on a PRIME adult spawner on the last leg of its journey home?

So BIG picture... 13 tagged kings enter UCI, but only 7 of them make it to the Kenai River. I'm getting raked over the coals by the local yokels to suggest it's related to gillnets.

Anybody think it's even half ass plausible that any naturally occurring salmon killer can take out 46% of the adult population in the span of 2-3 weeks?
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#878124 - 01/02/14 07:57 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: eyeFISH]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH

Anybody think it's even half ass plausible that any naturally occurring salmon killer can take out 46% of the adult population in the span of 2-3 weeks?


uhhhh,

a most emphatic NO!
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

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#878138 - 01/02/14 10:14 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: ColeyG]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
eyeFISH,

None of the natural mortality models I've ever heard about come anywhere near that close for salmon in their final year of life. Natural mortality is highest when they are young - eggs and fry - and then declines as the fish age and increase in size.

Sg

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#878139 - 01/02/14 10:25 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: Salmo g.]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
I found this bit from the "other" thread particularly nauseating.


Quote:
eyeFISH,

It's simply based on my own observations standing at the stern rail looking into the water as our net came over the roller and observing lots of dead Kings rolling out of the hammock, over the leadline, and being lost to the depths. I'm not anti-drift net by any stretch, but I'm also not going to deny what I've witnessed. With due respect to Dave, and again I'm not out to demonize Sockeye mesh, but I don't believe Kings simply "bounce off of it" nearly as scott free as folks would like to believe. Guys say that's not possible, because you can tell when there's kings in the net by watching your corks, or your net will get all torn up, but that wasn't my experience. If I hadn't spent so much time watching that net come up, we never would have had any idea we were catching and losing so many Kings as we did. Of course we'd pray, and reach, and hold our mouths just righ in he hopes that next one would catch a fin or gill plate just long enough to come up within reach, but we lost at least half a dozen for every one we got in the boat. And that was only the ones we saw. From what I've seen, it looks like they get their jaws tangled and then spin so they effectively hog tie their jaws shut so they suffocate. But they're not rolling up in the net, and getting hung or doing much damage. Then when they relax cause they're dead, and you put a little tension on the net while towing, or holding position against current, or when retrieving, they unwind and fall out. They might pop a strand or two, but we rarely had any significant damage.



Wow. How many met their demise in that fashion over the years. Super sad to think about such waste.

Good on ya for holding your own over there Doc. Can be a tough crowd eh.
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

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#878145 - 01/02/14 11:34 PM Re: WAYWARD salmon… [Re: ColeyG]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
That is a disgusting, disheartening read.

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