Ok I presently really dislike Slade, but when I drove though forks the other day I saw signs supporting him in the local tackle store and some businesses. Being of the open mind sort that I am...Tell me why I should vote for him over the opposition.

Tight Lines



------------------
Marty
Steelheader.net marty@steelheader.net

marty,
I am finally to the legal voting age and I am very excited to put my vote in against him. Well, I thought I would tell you my opinion.

Chris

Marty,

If you read the comments section of the WDFW Proposed Rule Changes, you'll see that the Forks locals love to rank on Bob (or Robert Ball, as they refer to him) for his support of C&R regs on the Forks area rivers. So it's no surprise to me that they'd love a guy like Slade Gorton. You hate for your state to lose seniority (power, in other words) in the US congress, but Slade is one guy I'd love to see take a vacation from office.

The question is, are his opponents also net-lovers, but from the liberal side of politics? In that case, I'll have to consider my vote VERY carefully. Oh, hell, who am I kidding, I'd vote for a chimpanzee before I could bring myself to vote for Slade "I never met a dam I didn't like" Gorton. Just my $.02


Fish on........

The dams have to go and so does Slade!!!!

------------------
Tight Lines!!

Dan S. There it goes again the stated sentiment that nets are the big problem! Get it straight will you its pollution, dams, and riparian zone degradation, not nessecarily in that order that have brought the fisheries resources of this state to the sorry situation that exisist.
Slade Gortons opposition to meaningful changes in forest practices and agricultural and grazing rights curtailment are easy to read about. He is always voting with the western block of big development oriented legislators for additional funding of water projects that continue the decline in fish populations.
His stead fast support of riders on appropriations bills is killing the taxpayers as a whole, I could go on for days about ths jerk. Lets end it with the thought do you really want to have as your senior Senator the former Attorney General of Washington State that lost the Boldt Decesion.
Now this ia a RANT!

You are right about the other three, but I would still put NETS at the top of the list. Anyway, Slade must go he is a crook.

The Sierra club is on a mission to educate the public about slade. I have heard of his "ack room deals" and hope to vote him out of office. Anyone know who we could vote for?
In response to the net comment: It is very easy to lay blame on nets. Blame is why nothing gets done. Everyone wants to say that "I have no affect on fish" but when it comes down to it we all do. Yes even us fisherfolk!
Also when you make a statement like "nets are the only problem" You immediately put some people on the offensive. Those people will then quit listening to what you say.

VOTE THIS BUM OUT! Cant say it any clearer. Example: I asked him about the dams on the Elwha (spelling?), and he said "I dont see any real need to remove them", (I.E. benifit). If you pay attention to what goes on in the newspaper from time to time, you will see a trend with this guy. Supports mining companys with no environmental monitoring, see's no bendfit to dam removal, wants increased logging with no restrictions, not around, not seen on high seas drift nets, just today in the paper he opposes money for parks, and on and on and on. Get rid of him now!

Native Boy,
This is just a friendly question: do you think that nets don't do anything to the fish population. The only thing that effecteds the fish are ripariam zone degradation, dams and pollution, in your opionin.

Addict: To answer your question on alternatives to Slade, there are two Dems in the running -- Maria Cantwell (former Congressperson) and Deborah Senn (current state insurance commissioner). The primary will decide which one goes against Gorton, but either would be an improvement!

Native Son,

The dams in question are of questionable economic value. The case made to keep them intact is not strong enough to outweigh the damage they do to the fish, in my opinion. And the Elwha dam issue is laughable. Yeah, let's throw up a dam to power a pulp mill and wipe out a run of some of the largest Chinook in N. America. And once the fish are on the brink of extinction, let's refuse to admit our mistake, for fear that someone might accuse us of being an "environmentalist" GASP!!! Sorry if you don't see it that way, but I do. Tell you what, why don't you just head to the polls and cancel out my vote for whomever or whatever is running against Slade? That's how it's done, so we'll see in November.

And as for the nets, here's my opinion for you. The Native comercial harvest is provided in the treaties and isn't even a factor here. Every returning fish has already survived the dams, habitat degradation, ocean conditions, bids, etc. Now it's a question of how much of the pie goes to sports anglers and non-Tribal commercial netters. In the past and in this case the netters pay least and take most. I want sport fishing to get more at the expense of NON-TRIBAL COMMERCIAL NETS. Is that clear enough? Nets, dams, anglers, habitat all have something to do with it. I'm addressing just two of the issues here. They just happen to be the two issues that are easiest to address. Unless, Native Son, you have a proposal to regulate: urban growth and devlopment, water usage, high seas dumping of chemical waste, bird predation, transportation, nuclear waste storage, logging, road building, farming, and everything else facing these fish runs.

Fish on........

[This message has been edited by Dan S. (edited 07-19-2000).]

Chris, I personaly find the use of gillnets and for the most part siene nets to be under regulated in the State of Washington. The use of a gear type in the prosecution of a fishery is only good if it is done with effective monitoring and enforcement by competent managers and adequate enforcement personel. I am getting a pretty clear picture that we might be lacking here in Washington in this regard. As to which is worse on fish, nets, or all the other problems facing salmon in the northwest one only has to look up north to Alaska where annuual harvest by the various users is measured in millions of fish and then walk the streams after all those netfishers trollers and sport fishers have been fishing and look at the millions of salmon that are choking the unlogged undamned unpolluted streams.
To many times people in general tend to look at the other guy, the other tribe if you will to give up the little of what is left so he she they or I can have the little thats left. This whole thing about attacking everybody else to get the last fish will get us just that "The Last Fish"

Steelhead Addict, maybe you would like to explain to us why the Sierra Club didn't support the "Ban All Nets" initiative.

Native,

You can not directly compare the returns to alaska with those of WA. I agree that Dams, logging, riperian disturction (grazing), siltation, and netting are some of the couses of the reduced escapement number. Elimination of netting is simple going to be the quickest way to begin enhancement of returns. For cutlural reasons dip nets should work in most regions with a little open communication.

thick

Salmontackler, I'll answer that on the skinny that I have. The Enviromental movement although late to the party when it comes to fisheries has recently been effective in working with fisheries organizations in Alaska. Tongass and Chugach National forest reform,riverine protection, oil tanker safety, offshore drilling regulations, and even the Marine Mamal Protection Act, are all partly the result of various groups working together.
After having worked with groups who represent commercial fishing intrest it is not really Kosher to jump on the band wagon of an initative (with no chance of succes), that is stated to kill the jobs of the same people you just won with on all the other issues.
Also in the recent past, early 90's ,the organization S.E.A.C.O.P.S. was started funded and staffed almost entirely by commercial fishers. The sole purpose of the organization was to provide information on the high seas interception of North American Salmon by Asian Driftnetters on the high seas. In that goal the organization was quite successful and alliances were informaly created once again between fishing organizations across the spectrum with many of the enviromental organizations.
Shortly after the United States, Soviet Union, and Japan, got the United Natons ban on highseas driftnetting passed as a law of the sea sport fishing groups siezed upon the concept of painting small scale domestic gillnetters with the same brush. This relly pissed off the gillnetters and sieners and they demanded that the enviros back off on any support for a ban on small scale domestic commercial fishing.
Then there is also the view held by many that the whole net ban disscusion is a "Red Herring" and well meaning folks are being duped into supporting it in lieu of getting focused on the real problem dams, logging, mineing,(sic) and agriculture.
Once again I really hope to make this issue clear and my only purpose in these post is to try and get information out there. I read this board for along time before I started posting and I must say the majority of the members appear to have the fishes intrest at heart but if you don't have all the information it makes it difficult to tell fact from fiction.

Just to add on to Native's post:
I voted for the initiative, but I regret it now ( even though it didn't pass)> The idea was to get rid of nets, but the initiative on the ballot was to stop all commercial fishing, both net and trawl. This in my opinion is why the initiative didn't pass

What the heck? Maria Cant-do anything-well or Deborah Senn? I don't want to get off on a rant here but if you folks think that a couple of nanny state socialists will in any way improve life or fishing in this state you're all licking frogs. Who has appointed the last few WDFW chiefs? Liberal democrats. Who has run this state into the ground financially, morally, educationally? Liberal democrats! Deborah Senn is personally responsible for the cost of health insurance in this state doubling over the last 6 years (ask your boss!) and the number of insurers going from over thirty to TWO. Yeh, that is freedom of choice. Liberal democrats have cost this state over thirty million dollars is DSHS settlements this year alone!!!!!! How much fishing opportunity could that buy??????? Slade is no saint I admit, but he is a far cry better than someone who thinks they know better what kind of car you should drive (a public bus), how you should raise you kids(on ridlan in a failing public school unable to read)If you think you can raise your kids, just swat one on the behind at a mall and see how long it takes CPS to visit your home, how much of your money you should be able to keep(inflation 2.5% property tax increase 20% in 2000, 13% in 1999)What you can eat(recently introduced "fat tax" to discourage meat eating), how much fuel you can buy($0.43 PER GALLON gas tax), how free you can be(2 sheriffs for 720 square miles in graham with 40 mph roads, that means a one hour response time and Maria and Deborah don't think we can be trusted with weapons to defend our families, in an area with the highest concentration of meth labs in the state!!!!!!) What you can own(if you think you own your home, truck, boat just stop paying your lease payments to the gov't(TAXES,FEES,TABS) Hell, us peasants can't even fish for pleasure without PAYING FOR THE PRIVELEGE(paying for certain, unalienable rights) If you guys want to be single issue voters, go right ahead. If you really want to make this a better country for EVERYONE (not just me,me,me) vote for MORE freedom, LOWER taxes, LESS gov't intrusion in our lives. If you don't like Slade, vote for a conservative libertarian. Remember, those dams were there for a long time BEFORE the fish runs went to hell. Idaho steelhead travel over 8 dams and they still have good runs most years. (yes I know they also have the largest hatchery)

When looking back at Slade Gorton's track record, I do not know how anybody who is somewhat concerned not only about having fish to fish for but also about the air that their children breathe and the water their children drink can vote for Gorton.
I would rather have a femi-nazi women telling what to do then have no fish to fish for, not have clean water to drink, not have clean air to breathe, not have parks to walk in, not have forests to hike through etc. etc. etc. ...you get my point.
wit45cal: Swallow your redneck pride and put the fish first, I do not honestly believe the democrat forerunners are bust into your house and take away your kids for spanking them nor are they going to take away your cars and make you ride the bus especially considering that Wa. State DSHS cant manage to protect parents from killing their kids let alone spanking them.

--Ryan

Slade must go anybody who supports fishing with nets and keeping useless dams that block hundreds of miles of spawning ground does not care about the fish. enough said
RAMPRAT

Thanks for the responses. I must admit I did like one of slades proposed intiatives. He wanted to make it legal to sue the tribes. Presently we have no legal recourse if we disagree with the tribes. But of course he switched his position on that one too after some back door deal. The native americans are putting a all out assault against him this coming election. Ever wonder why? Guess he should have followed though with his initiatives instead of switching at the last minute. Thanks again for your insights.

------------------
Marty
Steelheader.net marty@steelheader.net

Please don't try to tell me about clean water and air. As one of the people in the forefront of environmental protection I do know a little about it. I spent 4 years owning a business that was required to clean up the lead and chrome ridden water of the City of Tacoma. It is private businesses that are making improvements to the water and air.(with help and constant urging from the DOE) All of the significant advances in environmental protection have come from private business. You conviently forget that the biggest reason we have the lowest power rates in the US is exactly because of the columbia dams. You also forget to disagree or disprove any of my points but rather resort to name calling. If you think the nanny state is a good thing, name one time in history that it has worked.

Native son, I really appreciate all your knowledgeable, and intelligent input on this website, help me out here, the Hoh is pretty much unpolluted,undammed, undeveloped, and the headwaters exist in a never logged national forest. Why then is the king run going downhill so fast, if it's not the nets in the river, what is it.???

wit45,

Have you checked the power production numbers from the Snake river dams in question? You might be surprised at how little they contribute to the area's economy, power-wise. Private enterprise is leading the cleanup of the messes that other private enterprises have produced. Just curious....who left behind the lead and chromium you were cleaning up? I agree that our gov't reps. have done a sorry job as stewards of our lands, but you're not really claiming that private enterprise is guilt-free regarding the degradation of our natural resources, are you? In any case, I'll be at the polls in Nov. voting against Slade, so if you want to cancel out my vote, be my guest. I think his track record sucks, and I'm going to let my vote speak for me. As a voter, that's all I can do.


Fish on.........

I did not mean to resort to name calling but the one thing that drives me crazy about Gorton supporters is that his efforts to undermine enviromental law are so blatant. Browse through the headlines or the local news section of the Seattle Times over the past year and its very obvious, look back over Gorton's long tenure and its sad to see where we could be right now.
If you think I am some kind of liberal tree hugger and that is why I am denouncing Gorton and supporting him being voted out of the senate that is not the case. Anybody that really knows me or has had any sort of political discussion with me knows that I am about as conservative as they come; many a occasions I have been called a conservative *******.
I still can not understand why anyone who enjoys the outdoors in this state would vote for him...it just makes no sense to me.
--
Ryan

ps wit45cal: are you one of those "sportsman" that bonks a wild steelie on the head and then blames their demise totally and completely on the indians?
just wondering

Dan O, I will try to answer it is pretty complex though. Starting in about 1982 there has been a repetitive and extremely damaging series of heavy rainfall and early snow melts resulting in catastrophic Riparian zone shifts and gravel recruitment. This has been accelerating and if you fish the Hoh much you have seen the evidence of these floods. The worst damage is in the areas that have been logged but by no means is the areas in the park immune to these events.
River course changes of the magnitude that are occuring on the Hoh are devastating to all spieces. In a lot of cases the water just simply moves away from where fish have spawned before the eggs get out of the gravel. In other instances the rearing areas for the fry and parr are filled in with the excessive sand and gravel thereby limiting the carrying capacity of the stream.
In a lot of the Hoh there is a lack of the larger woody debris that forms log jams which create stability to the banks and the course of the river. Too the log jams are important to the fry and parr in diferent stages of there various life historys.
I'm sure that you know all these things but its a pretty short list compared to all that is wrong with the Hoh.
I'm quite certain that the Hoh needs to be managed very carefuly by all the managers involved Native Tribe, National Park, Timber companys, the State, and us as individuals.
Hope that helps Dan O, I am headed out the door to do a bit of angling.

Sorry but I haven't killed a fish in almost two years, of any kind. I have been having terrible luck(?!?!?) hunting steelies as of late but I really don't expect to bonk even a hatchery fish. Part of the reason we have fewer fish is the indian nets and the lack of policing same. The dams also contribute, as do sporties, commercials,(as an aside, I notice that guides are not classified as commercials. With very few exceptions,most notably Bob, they get paid to produce dead fish for customers) industry and all the rest. I am opposed to the redistribution of wealth, mine and yours, and the encroachment on freedom that the dems will bring.(patty murray ring a bell) Slade is no saint, and I have disagreed with him many times. My point is that we should elect someone who will enhance our freedom not attack it. The word fish is nowhere in the constitution and these jokers are there to uphold the constitution, the whole thing. Everyone complains about SPECIAL INTEREST making the rules until it is their own special interest. Like it or not we are a special interest. As for the water I was cleaning up, it was the drinking water that the CITY had already treated. The Lead and Chrome levels coming into my plant were above the permissable discharge levels allowed by law. This meant that I had to pay to clean the water before I could discharge it to the sewer. This is the reason that I will not drink city water anywhere (watch for the bleach smell) Slade is certainly not the best choice we could find, I simply believe he will be the best choice available in Nov.

I seem to be older then most of the post on this topic. I can remember back when good old slade gordon use to do commentary on KIRO. Before he got elected to the state office's he has held.
I did not like his commentary then i i do not like his attitude now. He has not changed his demeanor or attitude. He always acts like is so much better than everyone else, and his sh*t does not stink.

Well folk's, believe it or not i'll bet my pay check that i would not follow him into a bathroom stall when he is done.

He has been a bad seed, but now he is the senior bad seed for Washington State. And yes, it is important to have senior members in congress. But why could he be more like old Magneson or a couple of others we have had over the years. Yes some of them have been demcrats, but we had a few good republics also. People whom actually looked out for Washington's people not just their own or their special interest groups. Yes old salde has his share of special interest groups and they pay alot of money to keep him in office. No secret, it has been listed by some individuals of all the national congress-people. Whom, when and where the monies, trips and so on comes from.

It might hurt haveing rookie congree people in office, but hopefully they will listen for a couple of years before they get all caught up in the pork barrel politics and do something right.

elmtree (woody)

[This message has been edited by elmtree (edited 07-20-2000).]

Before you vote against Slade, consider the options, and the big picture.
1. Slade does not support PETA or the other animal rights people. Note: PETA wants to ban all fishing, especially C&R,since they consider it torture. (Slade's opponent is a Liberal Democrat, financially supported by the animal rights groups).

2. The Dams in Eastern WA, support the mainstay of the Eastern WA economy, agriculture. The Dams also are also the financial support for the majority of the fish hatcheries on the Columbia. Remove one, you remove many of the other.

3. Slade and the Republicans support local, and state solutions to the fish problems. The opposition (Democrats)prefers Federal solutions. If you doubt that, just look at what they just did to Hanford Reach. Hopefully they won't screw that up, or eliminate access.

Slade certainly isn't perfect, but I think he is a heck of a lot better that the alternative. I can't bear the thought of a Patty Murray twin!

Just remember Slade = no fish. If you are O.K. with that than vote for him. I really think that some of you need to look up the word Liberal in the dictionary!!! Maybe it isn't a dirty word.

First off I want the readers to know the I support what Huntar and 45cal. said about the alternatives... YOU guys are flippin nuts if you think for one minute that one of those liberal demos. are going to make your fishing any better. DanS you can already consider your vote as cancelled, because however bad slade may be the alternative is slow death....I wish you readers could look past acouple of issues an see the big picture.. REMOVING THE DAMS WILL NOT BRING BACK THE FISH AS FAST AS THE REMOVEL OF ALL NETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Try one first then go for the other.. Lastly, Slade is one of the few politicians that has ever stood his ground(momentarily) against the indian issues.. Do you think for a minute that one of those liberal demos will try that. Think not!!!

Pro-Gortonians :
How would reelecting Gorton better the state our our native salmonids in this state than electing a Democrat???

--
Ryan

edit, message deleted.

[This message has been edited by salmontackler (edited 07-22-2000).]

Lets stick to the subject at hand. The "Dam Question" I asked Slate about, were the Elwha dams. His response was "I don't see any real good in removing them" . And lets not get tied up in liberal vs. conservative. Vote for the person who will do the best job. And if you have kept up on events, you would see that Slate Gorton has done a lousy job. At least from a fishermans point of view. If you care about what goes on with this states fisheries, than vote this guy out!

Now that this has deteriorated into a political debate, I'll bow out now. Let's just say that "conservative" means opposed to change. Like things the way they are? Then vote GOP. After all, they're so worried about our personal freedoms that they want to be in our homes and bedrooms and doctors' offices to show us how to lead our "free" lives.

Fish on......

Salmontackler, you said that Slade is as close as we can come to removing the dams. Are you serious??? Slade never saw a dam he didn't like. Ever!!! At least demos, those crazy environmentalists, know that dams are bad for the environment.

I don't think I am going to change any minds here, especially since no one has even bothered to prove any of my points wrong. Quite typical of democrats. I certainly don't intend to make any enemies here which is often done when discussing politics. Suffice it to say that the last time we even had close to conservative (not necessarily GOP) control in WA was when Dixie was the Gov. What has been tried in this state for the last 25 years certainly has not worked and I for one am tired of hearing that the only reason it hasn't is that I'm not contributing enough of my money. Slade is NOT a good choice for senator, he is just a lot better than the alternatives. Please do not get bogged down with being a single issue voter, it shows a pathetic lack of citizenship. It is the me, me, me attitude that got us into this mess. I suggest you ask your boss to let you sit in on a few interviews(it quickly proves the sorry state of education here), review the tax liability of the firm, add up all of the taxes that you can see that you pay(don't forget about the 7.5% SSI your boss pays for you)See what it takes to get a building permit, etc., etc. You will quickly see that we are losing freedoms daily and it's costing us more and more to do it. (boston tea party happened over a 2.5% tax) I will repeat, The nanny state has failed EVERY time it has been tried, for the last five thousand years. Hard work, perserverence, patriotism and individual freedom have WORKED every single time it has been tried for the last five thousand years. Vote for freedom and the rest will fall into place, and do not under any circumstances be willing to trade freedom for security or comfort (or fish). The small pricetag today will expand exponentially and the program will still fail. (social security ring a bell?) Question, does anyone on this board under age 45 think that SSI will provide enough for them to live on at retirement? Does anyone under 35 think they will get back anything at all? Just one example of a great sounding idea, very well intentioned, run by literally thousands of true believers over the years and it is still failing. I will now go back to discourse on fishing and leave you all to make your own decisions politically. Anyone need a boat on the Cowlitz Sat. 7-21??? am planning to launch around 0500. Dems are welcome!!!

Voters and fishermen:

I am just left of center politically and vote as an independant. As a fisherman and outdoorsman I wouldn't even consider voting for Slade Gorton. As a citizen concerned for fairness and well being for the majority of people I also wouldn't vote for Gorton. Almost nuff said. Except I can't help but to reply to the far right edge blinded thinking of the "Gun Man" (wit45cal). You have completely over exagerated the negative controlling affects on society as a whole by the liberal demos! I don't like things that don't belong forced down my throat or up my a** either. The key words are "that don't belong there". Most of what they propose for policy and laws do belong there so the animalistic side of human nature doesn't ferociously feed upon itself to eventual destruction. The members of society that don't want them there are those that want freedoms to hurt people in various ways for self gain or want built-in unfair advantages to oppress the middle and lower classes. This is simply a FACT! You must be an ignorant redneck that doesn't even know why you are a self-described peasant. It's because of the the fraudulant oppressive conservative wealthy class that you so blindly vote for. Those are the ones that aren't satisfied with just 3 huge houses, 5 expensive cars, boats, and planes, etc., etc., etc. They want the middle and lower classes to provide them with labor and money and then turnaround and pay the taxes too, due to their extreme greed and the grandeur illusion that they are above the masses in intrinsic value and privilage. One of the great sicknesses of the human race. Just as rediculous and ugly is that their big money can buy "sellout" conservative republicans election victories and thus gain essentially paid for political advantage favors. Why? Because the masses still allow these big money "pull the wool over the dummies eyes" lying compaigns to keep working. Why? Because they are dumb. You too "Wit". There are many ways they pull this off. Let me enlighten you with their easiest and most effective. During their bigger money compaigns they promise you a tax cut (read their lips). Even if they do come thru with this tiny carrot for the needy, the biggest tax cut in dollars per capita are overwhelmingly for the wealthy. And then the carrot goes right back to wealthy anyway in the form of windfall profits enabled by their system. But because God didn't gift the "peasants" with as much intelligence, or even greed, does not mean that they deserve to be so utterly oppressed by wealthy power! And the smarter greedy people aren't as smart as they think because all of their ugliness will eventually lead to enough destruction that it will prevent them from enjoying the spoils of their power. Now this is from a guy who honestly isn't even a far left wing person. I just tell it like it really is!

[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 07-23-2000).]

Fishtick, Wow except for the reference to individuals described as being "dumb" ( I would substitute ignorant) I couldn't agree with you more.
I am writing this response as one who has a closet full of guns and the same lackluster educatinoal background decryed in a previous post! I have spent a lifetime in the school of hard knocks and I am fully aware of the problems of excessive liberal programs but they pale in comparison to the excesses of global enviromental destruction caused by big moneyed intrest.
True campaign finance reform is the only single issue that rings my bell until that transpires all the rhetoric about freedom will ring pretty hollow in my ears.

wit45, Fishtick, Native Son and others,

What we have here is a simple political diagreement. Now if we all go to the polls, or mail in our ballots, we'll be doing all we can do to make our point. It's the non-voting complainers that crack me up. They take no part in the process but continue to lament how the process works.

Just vote in November and let the chips fall where they may. wit45, that was very open-minded of you to invite even a Dem. to fish with you.......you weren't just going to dump them overboard downstream were you? Ha Ha. Talk to you guys later.........


Fish on...........

Dan S, if you think this country is changing for the better, I think I can see why you are a liberal.
Fishtick, I have one word for you "luxury tax". Just my "blind voting, ignorant redneck" opinion. If you don't like being controlled you should re-think liberalism, and I thimk you are a little further to the left than you think. I don't think Gordon is the best choice, but I would rather not have liberal representation. Guess I am between a rock and a hard head.

I did go fishing Sat. and hooked 4 nice steelhead. I also managed to lose all four. Two of the losses I will promptly blame on those of you who did not take me up on the offer. (they were lost while one handing the net)

Fishtick, stop with the name calling, it clouds (at the very least) your argument. Since 5% of earners pay over 90% of taxes and 50% of earners pay NO income tax at all, tax cuts by definition must benefit the wealthier people.(especially when WEALTHY has been defined down to--anyone with a job) Class envy will only work for so long then the truth will out. The problem with dems (apart from being wrong) is that they cannot bring themselves to argue the facts, which I guess forces me to discuss?? things their way.

The last time that the WEALTHY were attacked happened this way. Their money was seized, their businesses stolen, their homes, possesions, everything gone forever. They weren't even really wealthy, but the president and other politicians convinced the citizens that they were, primarily through class envy. They were then made to work to pay back society for their sin of being wealthy and different, thinking they were better than the rest of the people. Some people even said that they thought they were genetically superior to the serfs.

Eventually, SIX MILLION WERE EXTERMINATED.

I think you're probably a good person and I would gladly have you as a neighbor, friend or fishing buddy. Two things just need to be addressed, one, I am not far right, just right. Two, you my friend are not right at all. Lets get back to fishing!!!!!!

Back to the original question on this post, slade's family is very much financialy involved in the commercial fishing industry. Anyone ever heard of Gorton Seafoods?? How can we expect anyone, much less a politician with slade's track record, to vote for what is beneficial to salmon, when he and his right-wing cohorts can continue to stuff their pockets with dirty salmon dollars?? VOTE HIM OUT ASAP!!!

Please pardon my poor choice of references Native Son. Instead of refering to the under-privilaged oppressed of the middle and lower classes as "dumb", I should have refered to those in that situation that continue to buy the con. RW fraud, and vote in their republican cohorts, as being "grossly misinformed". They just lack the means to understand how it really works against them. It's a little more of a challenge to come up with an appropriate reference to "ignorant redneck gun man". How about "wooly brows"? No, that's name calling. Maybe "actually thinks he's right ~ roflmao". It's voters like him that have unfortunately helped divide this country into 4 classes ~ Small minority of powerful oppressors that have everything and want more. The struggling middle class. The low wage slaves that have little or no opportunity to get by any other way than this sub-poverty level of life. And finally the homeless people that were pushed out of jobs they worked hard at for years, and did well at, by the powerful upper echelon bottom line money guys in control. That's class envy?? Hey, I guess I am a little further left than I thought. But not far left, just the proper side of right on . BTW 45 Caliber, this thread has turned appropriately political, and an occasional one that has connections to fishing in addition to everyday life has got to be OK. The far greater number of posts within this thread seems to confirm that. If you find it bothersome then you can get back to fishing by clicking on just those topics. I also will mention reading psychology literature of studies that have proven that the larger the caliber of a man's gun the smaller his penis is extremely likely to be. Bone up on your politics 45 cal.

[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 07-24-2000).]

Fishstick, guess we should bring down that small minority of powerful oppressors that already pay 90% of the taxes. Then when they are forced to pay even more taxes they won't be wanting any of those 5 extra houses,8 cars, 3 boats, and 10 G loomis rods. With no one to work for, I wonder how many of the next 2 classes will be joining the last one?
That should make you happy though, more gov. dependants.

[This message has been edited by corky (edited 07-23-2000).]

Fishtick,I think it is you instead of "gunman" that needs to read alittle history.. Ya you are right about the rich getting richer and the poorer staying where they are at. But, you show me anywhere in history where society functioned with everybody as an equal?!?! It will not and cannot happen.. There is always going to be someone who is smarter, more driven, luckier, etc....and these are the ones that will prevail and create jobs for the rest..Should we punish these people for having created jobs and opportunities for the rest?? I think not!!!!!!!!!! You demos, that blame your lack of success on the rich Reps. are the ones that are stupid..Everyone of us has the same oppurtunities to succeed and that is the great advantage of living here.. Fishtick, you might want to quite blaming the govt. for your short comings because it would appear to me that someone with your attitude has some real SHORT COMINGS.. Lets give up on the impossible(agreeing on a political issue) and go fishing..

Fishtick,I think it is you instead of "gunman" that needs to read alittle history.. Ya you are right about the rich getting richer and the poorer staying where they are at. But, you show me anywhere in history where society functioned with everybody as an equal?!?! It will not and cannot happen.. There is always going to be someone who is smarter, more driven, luckier, etc....and these are the ones that will prevail and create jobs for the rest..Should we punish these people for having created jobs and opportunities for the rest?? I think not!!!!!!!!!! You demos, that blame your lack of success on the rich Reps. are the ones that are stupid..Everyone of us has the same oppurtunities to succeed and that is the great advantage of living here.. Fishtick, you might want to quite blaming the govt. for your short comings because it would appear to me that someone with your attitude has some real SHORT COMINGS.. Lets give up on the impossible(agreeing on a political issue) and go fishing..

Steelyhorn: You had the "same opportunities to succeed" as Slade? And Bubba-Dubya Bush?? You were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and a family ties pass into the National Guard (versus Vietnam)?? I doubt it!
"Slade works for you??" Sure, if you're a billionare with lots of campaign money.
I fish & I vote (anyone but Gorton!)

Scaly,Did you vote for Wild Bill???? He's certainly not up for any war medals.. Your right about the silver spoon, I was fed with your standard silverware..

I didn't read all of this thread because frankly you only have to skim to get the gist.
Slade Gorton is not his own man. You want to know exactly how Slade will vote on each and every issue you just need to follow the money. This man is a puppet of big business and big dollars nothing else. I do not believe, after all these years, that he actually has a thought of his own any more. It should not matter whether you are a Dem or Rep since this guy doesn't represent you either way unless you are lining his pockets with big coin.
On a side note...what other politician, Dem or Rep, openly admits to being anti-environmental? Normally you'd think that would mean the end of your political career. Amazing he's been around this long.

Steelyhorn: I appreciate your answer, and owe you one back. Yes, I did vote for Clinton - twice - and I'll be glad to give you my thoughts on his "draft dodging."
Y'see, I went to Vietnam, as part of my 23 year military career (and came home to a very unwelcome U.S.). Some of my friends protested that so-called war, and after being over there, I had great admiration for them. If you went to "Nam," you should know what a farce it was, being more over U.S. oil interests than democracy. Then, our government wouldn't even let us win. I don't know a single VN vet who is proud of his/her part in that Big Mistake (the only "war" this country ever lost!) I could go on and on, but you get my drift.
Bottom line: I have more respect for VN protestors than rich dudes like Dan Quayle and G.W. who dodged by getting into the Guard through "special channels."
Tight lines.

Scaly, Ditto and roger that. When I got home I told my buddys to go to B.C. on a fishing trip and stay until the Navy painted all its boats gray again.