Attended an anti crude-by-rail / oil containment forum tonight. A broad coalition of organizations opposed to the oil train industry gathered for a public meeting at Hoquiam High School. Many state county tribal and city leaders in attendance.

The bastages are looking for every avenue to get this toxic volatile mess to western ports for eventual export. Giving in to the industry now will doom the region to long term unmitigatable risk.

Is this really what we want for a community so reliant upon its natural riverine/estuarine/marine resources for its well being?

This is a MUST WATCH!

Anything with a probability of happening will happen given enough chances. DOD and DOE obviously recognize that based on some of the wild design criteria I've seen.

Who's the ultimate decision maker on the trains? DOT?

Federal or state courts will have the final say after all the posturing & BS is done.

Since oil trains are inter-state commerce, the Feds have final jurisdiction. In this case, it's the Federal Dept of Transportation. But they can only enforce the laws passed by Congress. The courts can't get involved unless somebody takes someone to court. And then, the courts can only interpret existing law or regs. They can't make it up.

I live in Vancouver, WA, not far from those tracks shown in the video. I see enormously long oil trains running right thru downtown Vancouver, Camas, and Washougal almost daily. This is a huge issue right now in Vancouver. We might be able to beat back the proposal to build an oil terminal at the Port of Vancouver, but local and State governments are powerless to stop the oil trains from running through their neighborhoods.

But don't worry, oil train accidents won't happen. Never, never. Ever. I know because the folks at Tesoro said so. (What is the sarcasm font on this BB?)

Right. And unless anyone can outspend Warren Buffet and Big Oil, all this protest amounts to no more than delays and added costs (which, don't get me wrong, are the citizens' only hope of affecting the outcome.) The only potential deal-breakers here are the EIS determining that the projects are not environmentally feasible (which to my knowledge has never happened), the process becoming prohibitively expensive (not likely- this is Big Oil and Berkshire Hathaway we're dealing with), or the foreign market for oil dropping to a point at which exports will no longer be profitable (not likely, but probably the most likely of the three).

Another potential outcome that I think is more realistic would be that other, existing ports would offer the corporate partners a sweet enough deal to make it profitable to ship oil to Asia from the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic coast. Apparently, Montreal and New Orleans have both thrown hats in the ring. Hopefully, that starts moving fast, as I think it's the only scenario in which we won't see these projects eventually approved on our coast.

Local govt still holds the TRUMP card!

If Hoquiam fails to approve the permits for an expanded receiving facility, or conditionally revokes the existing ones... there's no reason to bring the oil to GH.

Conditionally... as in show proof of insurance to cover the damage from a accidental spill, seismic-induced spill, or catastrophic explosion. Hoquiam does NOT want to be stuck with the tab for cleanup/restoration.

After watching the same dog and pony show down here, the first thing I would expect would be convincing the fishing groups to give up impacts. They ain't going spend 5 -10 billion on infrastructure and then get stopped by a fish.

Nip that infrastructure in the bud... and then there's absolutely no reason to bring oil cars to GH.

We aren't "on the way" to anywhere else the oil might go.

If we build it, they WILL come.

If we don't, they NEVER will.

They're coming to the West Coast and are here in a big way on the Columbia now and trying to get bigger with propane methanol and of course the never ending LNG saga.

The NIMBY hypocrisy is overwhelming . You vote for big oil
Every time you stuff that gas nozzle in your boat, truck, car turn on the stove etc. you vote for massive copper mines with you big houses filled with copper wire and electronics. You vote for dams every time you buy something made from aluminum. It's hard to believe that people can be as educated as they are and still not get that they are the problem they are trying to stop.

Q's might come in handy with this.

This is about DANGEROUS, EXPLOSIVE, TIMEBOMBS running through our neighborhoods and along our waterways. People may use oil, but we've never had this much dangerous activity shoved down our throats before. Not to mention the lack of plans for containment and response to derailments and spills. To blame this response on "nimbys" is absurd. Go live in one of the communities affected by inevitable "accidents" from this flawed method of transporting dangerous substances and then talk. Bob R

This is THE key factor...

No storage terminal = no reason to bring the stuff here.

End of story.

Now lets KILL the proposed terminal!

Once this industry gets a foothold in our community, God only knows how much expansion the future holds. Once the area becomes known as a regional crude oil depot, it gives every other place an excuse to keep it coming our way.... we become the sacrificial lamb.

"Ah hell, Grays Harbor's already fukked... just keep the crude oil development there."

Is this what we want for our community?



No thanks.

I'd rather keep this...

I get it my bad . As long as the dangerous stuff goes through someone else's neighborhood it's ok . Preferably some poor 3rd world neighborhood right? Did you care before it showed up in your back yard. If you use it or its derivatives you are part of the problem. That is a reality you cannot pretend away. You cannot choose X and then cry because Y happens. Well you can but that does not make it better.

They're on it!

http://earthjustice.org/sites/default/fi...0Attachment.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/21/exxon-ceo-rex-tillerson-lawsuit_n_4833185.html



Another NIMBY

I'd think a simple map overlay of tsunami hazard zones and the rail system would be enough to realize this is a very bad idea. Especially after what just happened in Japan. But hey, spend enough money and it won't happen here

p.s. Vice News may be the best source of investigative news out there today. They do excellent work.

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/geographic/graysharbor/20140211-Westway-JARPAapp.pdf

Here's one that took me all of 5 minutes to find, p13 lists the aquatic species the project should impact so the next step would be to mitigate for them.

Actually, this is classic "The King" bullsh!t.

His position has always been "if you don't live in a cave and eat dirt, you can't be against ANYTHING".

It's just his way of dealing with being a first-world destroyer of the planet, while he pretends to be a farmer/rancher type whose impacts are irrelevant.

He's just as full of sh!t as anyone is, he just can't admit it. He thinks making fun of uptight city folk makes him above the fray.

You can be against anything you want to against but being against something you contribute to makes you a hypocrite crybaby douche. I did not make that rule it's just reality. Fprince pointed it out above more eloquently than I could. DanS could care less about it because being popular while pretending to be counter culture is his shtick. In reality he is a yuppie with granite counter tops, a lab and an SUV just like every other douche nozzle in his puke designed neighborhood.

And like clockwork, there's Elvis the dickface pretending he's some down=to-earth farmer, while he beats his keyboard while frothing at the mouth like the pussy he is.

Of course Fish Prince pointed it out more eloquently than you could - he's not a dumbfuck paste-eating Cooger dipsh!t like you are.

Go wash out your vag.

I would be cranky too if I have to use stairs to get into my SUV to take the lab to the park and carry around a Baggie of shat with all of the other douche nozzles in the neighborhood. Let alone do it in an AC/DC shirt and black Capri pants.

Don't go crapping on my argument, damn you!

You're cranky because you have a little dick and an even smaller brain.

You carry sh!t in a bag because it's a snack for later.

I've never worn capri pants, and if you have a problem with an AC/DC shirt, you should go kill your sad ass self.

Oh yeah - I drive a truck, not an SUV. And if you have a problem with labs, it just confirms your dumbfuckery.

Is this her?

The only sh!t bag carried around here is the one your mom packed around for 9 months. Post her address so I can send a sympathy card and some brain bleach. Labs are the greatest dog ever created it's the wart at the end of the leash that ruins them. A fashion accessory for the planned development fags.

Have a great 4th homo!

Patient sent me this video link last week...

Who's the token Asian near the end?

thanks, that was good to see. Good for you speaking up.

Thanks for being there to speak against this Francis, too bad there wasn't a more substantive report than that, but that's how they do ya.

doppelganger

Poking fun aside, thanks for being there.

http://www.sightline.org/2015/10/21/washington-is-still-unprepared-for-a-grays-harbor-oil-spill/

Part 2 here...

http://www.sightline.org/2015/11/09/the-high-costs-of-a-grays-harbor-oil-spill-part-2/

Great news on the GH crude oil saga... one of the developers announces it will forgo crude oil and revise its application for expansion accordingly.

YEE HAW!

http://thedailyworld.com/news/local/reg-abandons-crude-oil-storage

When the price of crude oil drops by 2/3 or more, that's a good thing for the environment. Who'da' thunk it?

You mean The Great Climate Change Hoax narrative may have to do with money, instead of science?

Perish the thought.

Fish on...

Todd

It totally is about money--- on both sides.

And the day oil rebounds, the vultures will start circling again. Same as it ever was....

U&T Labs are great dogs. I take an 80+ angler fishing. His dog knows when it is time to take a break.

This. I have it on good authority that the company saying they are not currently pursuing crude oil storage was very careful in the announcement not to declare themselves officially out.

My guess is it will go like this: Export of crude is already underway in Texas, and that market is going to explode (no pun intended) very soon. Once that happens, supply will quickly dwindle, and the price will reach all-time highs. Warren Buffett will pull a couple billion out of his couch cushions to "convince" our legislature that exporting oil is "right for Washington." The tax revenue prospects will be too great for Inslee to resist, and he'll sign our natural resources, public safety, and quality of life away to the railroads (with bi-partisan support, of course).

Until we see at least ONE example of a government blocking a big money development project because the people were opposed or because it would be detrimental to the environment, we can assume EIS's, etc. amount to little more than very expensive formalities.

Well, there was Boeing's SST, some nuclear power plants at least in CA, Mineral King Ski resort, and probably a number of others. It can happen.

As to the shipping of fossil fuels through WA just where will (mostly) Asia get the energy needed to run there economies in the here and now? Are you willing to destroy the second largest economy (China) plus all the other players there? Shipping out of WA may be a very bad choice; which choice will you support?

Certainly, for the long-term they, and we, need to develop fuels other than fossil-based but until that day.............

I have not been on here for sometime but you guys really need to stop and think for a minute.......everytime an industry wants to utilize grays harbor for some kind of industry it does not matter what it is everyone jumps on the band wagon to stop it !
None of you look at the big picture, Grays harbor has the highest unemployment in the state ! it has the highest amount of drug and alchol issues and junkies and tweekers ! It has one of the highest crime rates .....is any of this computing with you anti's ????? this area is [Bleeeeep!] doomed because there is no industry, no re-investment, no hope because everyone always says no and wont compromise and or do anything to bring in money, commerce and jobs......in short this place is the detroit of washington state....

so you have said no to everything that has tried to build business here, what are you going to say yes too ?

Peace Fly

Run it as my private hunting and fishing reserve. Nobody can live there except those who serve my needs as a weekend visitor.

Please, enlighten us with the list of corporations and ventures we as voters have turned away? I'm curious.

it seems like most of the businesses that come to town out there bring the promise of more jobs...however most of them bring their own people, anyway and it's not easy to get a job with them(they're looking for skilled workers and aren't particularly willing to train new help). take kiewit for example.

no bigger example then Kiewiet, what a bunch of liars and the state did nothing to back the people of the harbor........

there has been many people that wanted to do business here because of the rail line and the seaport close to the ocean. I dont recall them all but I do recall the coal before the oil and I remember Nike back in like 93 or 94 when all the knuckleheads down here still thought that the spotted owl was going to go away.....

there has been many people that wanted to do business here because of the rail line and the seaport close to the ocean. I dont recall them all but I do recall the coal before the oil and I remember Nike back in like 93 or 94 when all the knuckleheads down here still thought that the spotted owl was going to go away.....

The recently completed 520 pontoon project comes to mind, especially when they were building the infrastructure before beginning the pontoons.

I was going to point out how companies come here, and hire zero to very few locals. I knew a few people who drove from Tacoma to work on the pontoons. So please, tell me, how many times have the voting public said no? To oil and coal. Both wins. If Nike wanted to come here, then more power to them. I doubt voters turned that down.

I remember "nuke plant".....see them every time I leave my peaceful, quiet fairly clean environment to venture to the "rat race" of the I-5 cities.

The nuke plant never went, thank heavens, can't even think about the negative effects that any problems could have caused in Grays Harbor and in the Chehalis River.

Don't ever talk to me about jobs in this area. I moved here in 1968----jobs everywhere, mills were running 24/7, downtown Aberdeen was booming. Had 2 railroad lines, we were so busy. Had just about any car dealership you could want.

Timber-----Cut, cut, cut, ship all the good wood out of here. With every ship load, the future of this area was "sealed".

Do I have an answer....no, but coal and oil isn't a solution that most residents want.

+1

Oil and coal trains do NOTHING positive for either the people or the environment we all count on for tourism which is the real money driver for our county these days, look at what happened to the tourism in the Gulf after the blowout there. I can't believe your point of view considering what would happen to the few remaining fish in our rivers in the event of an oil train derailment. It's not like the tracks run along the main river or anything.
Oh, that's right. Trains don't go off the tracks around here, just other places.
Bob R

tourism dollars , are you kidding me ? we should have tons but only have a small portion of what it should be..............All I was saying is that everyone who wants to come here is run out......So any other bright ideas while crime continues to rise right along with unemployment ................

The politicians did not want to give Nike the tax breaks to bring 2000 jobs to the harbor..........they would not budge so Nike went to Long Beach...........

Well., with the lack of fish in Grey's Harbor these days and the "locals" getting all bent out of shape over "206,ers" coming here to fish, closures of clam beaches this year, closing of Lake Quinault for a year and a half, I'm not surprised that our tourism has fallen off. Projects like crude oil storage, transport, and coal traveling through our region on tracks run by greedy corporate entities that refuse to upgrade cars and respond to community concerns over safety and damage to our environment do NOTHING for our county. I welcome ALL businesses that wish to locate here so long as they leave no damage behind. Bob R

Seems I remember another company, you know the one, in Junction City that held Aberdeen hostage. The threat was, if make Junction City part of Aberdeen, I won't expand MORE into Junction City. If my memory is correct, a new 2 x 4, 2 x 6 mill was going to be built.

Anyone heard anything about a new mill being built????? I think not.

Rape and run.....Just look at all the corporations that are long gone, in past 20 years.

Superfly.....enjoy all the guides from other areas, coming to all the local rivers, leave each day, very little $$$$$$$ spent locally. What you think is yours......is now many others!!!!!!!

Go Hawks !!!!!!!!

that's a whole other can of worms, few people but almost all access to everything is private and posted, so unless you're in the good old boy club or own land, your opportunities are few these days.

WDFW sat on their hands.....years ago, could have/should have approached land owners on ALL the local rivers for 99 years leases for public access. It was easier to do nothing.........so we are where we are and its not getting any better. WDFW hides behind no $$$$$$$$ only their problem is only to get worse.....license purchasers can only be snookered so many times by the "paper fish" seasons. Salmon totals down, less fishing days, GH and Willapa Management Plans under fire, the list goes on.

Seahawks......mmmmm, about like my fishing during October, November, and December, shut down !!!!!!

WDG had a guy, from the Harbor, who funded his position to establish the Citizens Wildlife Heritage Program. He went around getting easements and access. That was in the late 70s and on into the 80s. The Steelhead Trout Club of Washington had a program before that to get access to rivers and if memory serves they not only got access but built stiles and such to safely get through fences.

Been done by people with vision and who actually hunted and fished in areas that needed access. Now?

Superfly's right to point out that Grays Harbor does have a track record of discouraging industry at the port, with the local good ol' boys leading the charge. Those guys are finally starting to die off, and their kids are selling their assets off and heading for what they think are greener pastures.... That said, oil trains are NOT the kind of business we need to support. Jobs are only a net benefit to an area when they go to local people and don't put the other, ESTABLISHED economies that depend on healthy, functional ecosystems at risk.

What is needed is a clear-eyed look at what the Harbor can do. What kind of runs, for example, are needed to make it an honest destination for fishing? Will those fisheries primarily benefit locals or will folks come from outside? If from outside, how much money will they spend?

Take razor clams. When there is an opening how much money do no locals bring in and drop? Or is it drive down, harvest, and drive home. If the latter, then the opening doesn't really benefit the community from an income basis.

Money has to come from outside the harbor to grow the economy. Otherwise, we're all just supporting each other. Not a bad thing, not a way to keep folks home.

As somebody who lives in Seattle, Portland, or even further afield, why would I come to the Harbor, stay, and drop some serious money? If that question can't be answered, then a big tourism economy is probably not in the cards. What next? What does the Harbor offer?

Right now, it probably offers bulk shipping on moderate-sized boats since it is closer to the open ocean than Seattle/Tacoma/Vancouver/Bellingham. If that is not acceptable, specifically what is?

I'm sure all kinds of information is available, just shaking the right tree to get it:

Clams----I don't dig, any more but maybe publish the zip codes of where people live. I do know when the tides are good.....lot's of car, motor home, camper traffic....many stop at the Monty Square, East Aberdeen, Safeway...that I see. How much do they spend ?????

Salmon fishing...coast, should be able to get this ????? BUT THAT SAID, not like the middle 70's when 1000's of people came from all over the world to fish Westport. I remember 275+ charter boats, so many fish that boats couldn't clear the bar, done....back in for 2nd group.

Steelhead...What it was, what it is.....lot's of people, lot's of boats....money being spent locally, yea for some motel rooms, gas, bait, food, guide fees, turn around $$$$, tackle but major purchases....not many boats, boating accessories, motors.

Guess my question is whether the currently available resources will bring in enough money to support the economy. This is kind of a different way of looking at it.

What sort of salmon season, not only days open but catch per angler, total catch, etc. are needed to attract (say) 10,000 anglers to the charters?

If folks are interested in the Harbor economy then we need to put some numbers on it.

And, the results won't be just up to the Harbor folks. How much has QIN and the Chehalis supported economic development of the NI community? How much have the folks from Seattle supported economic development in the Harbor? Those folks need to be on board.

Grays Harbor Management Plan if followed should be VERY helpful, can't have problems like this year, plan wasn't followed. Remember this was only the 2nd year BUT IT NEEDS TO BE FOLLOWED. WDFW Commission did a great job of writing GHMP.

Willapa Plan......1st year, gota let it run until people from outside the area develop a trust for this plan.

Stay the course.....takes time to change OLD WAYS, but change it must...for the resource and for the economy.

Even if the Plan is followed what does that do for the Harbor Economy? The genesis of my comments was the discussion about no coal, no oil, etc. Just what will meeting all aspects pf the plan do for the economy? Fishing will probably be better for the locals, a necessary thing. But what new money does it bring in?

As we keep adding people we either increase the demand on resources or ignore them to support the people.

Our view horizon is too close, to my mind. We have to expand our vision.

Oil by rail to GH has been dealt another painful blow... this time by the state.

Prove you've got the financial re$ource$ to clean up your mess, and then maybe we can talk.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article60156446.html

Oil train de-railment in CR Gorge near Mosier OR....

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northw...ncart_big-photo

These things are just mile-long ticking time bombs. Not a matter of IF but rather WHEN.

No thanks!

The oil ran into and crippled the sewage treatment plant there. Imagine the impact on shellfish in the harbor and along the beaches.

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

going to be tough to fill my truck and boat when no oil cant get here....

Most all of that is shipped overseas. Much like the Alaska Pipeline promise.

Just to further underscore the risk to our area, a few days after the Mosier de-railment, we had another spontaneous de-railment of slow-moving grain cars in Central Park by the Chehalis River. That's the second time in less than 2 years. Another de-railment was caused by some kids playing "chicken" with the train back in December.

http://thedailyworld.com/news/local/rail-cars-derail-central-park

What if these had been oil-cars? This is no small matter. Recall that oil trains would be 100 cars long and MUCH heavier than grain cars... and consequently MUCH more likely to be destabilized by our rickety old tracks.

I believe that in order to haul heavier trains the Federal rules would require track upgrades.

Like the ones in Mosier?

Beefed up tracks? Such reassurances are a joke. Kind of like the industry reassurances of the newer "safer" oil train cars that don't explode and burn?

Just like the ones that leaked, exploded and burned in Mosier?

Nothing in life is 100% safe.

The question we have to answer is how we will provide energy to the world. Today, tomorrow, and in the future.

Folks with long term memories will recall what happened to the US the last time shut off every shipments to Asia.

We have to make the switch, soon, to energy sources other than petroleum but we have to explicitly plan how to get from here to there without crashing the global economy.

And, the options such as pipelines and tanker trucks also crash, burn, and leak.

The railroads COULD replace railbeds with concrete like most advanced (and safer!) rail systems in other industrialized countries. But that would eat into railroad's profits. Fu*k this attitude! Stop THIS method of moving this explosive crap NOW! Excuses like this eat [Bleeeeep!]. Bob R

The railroads are replacing wood ties with concrete. I have seen the concrete ones in the Columbia Gorge, but don't remember if it was BNSF or Uncle Pete.

The Feds, as overseers of the railroads, could require those upgrades as a safety concern. Write your elected officials.

So, if we don't ship by rail, what is your viable alternative. Or is NIMBY a sufficient reason because it is always somebody's back yard ?

ANYWHERE and anyhow except on crappy roadbeds along waterways and NOT near schools, population concentrations, and environmentally sensitive areas until they can show emergency response plans that actually mean something.Having concrete railbeds is a must. There were NOT concrete beds in the Columbia Gorge. Calling people "nimbys" because they don't want under-regulated safety ignoring bomb platforms rolling through their communities is a real stretch, I don't want them in ANYONE'S neighborhood. I'd rather pay higher prices and know someone is held accountable. Anyone who supports the railroads position is a real piece of "work". Bob R

I agree that the railroads must be upgraded. Our elected officials should require it.

Just what is a railroad or highway or airport to do when people move there? There was next to nobody in the Gorge, for example, when those lines were built.

Just where can one build any sort of transportation infrastructure that does not cross waterways, not near schools or population centers, or environmentally sensitive areas? Sounds like a good idea, now show me on a map.

What do you mean by an emergency plan that really means something and how will that be applied to all shipments of all hazardous materials by all means?

I am not saying that the current situation is, or should be, acceptable. But I don't see that "no" is an acceptable answer unless a viable alternative that is safer is actually placed on the table.

This is a bit of a foggy conversation but sticking to the oil being shipped and stored it is a bit different than perception as most things are. First the oil shipped by rail is rather thick and if spilled will make a mess but unless storage tanks are located near the bay rather than well back and piped to the ship that can be managed. That said the problem is the crude shipped by rail has a lot of trapped gases in it and that is the issue. The stuff can go off like a bomb if ignited by a derailment. The rail line travels right through nearly every community from Oakville to Aberdeen as when built we moved our goods by rail not trucks so towns are located around the tracks. The recent derailment ( still being cleaned up ) was about a quarter mile from my house and has taken over a week to clean up and that was grain cars.

Also we are not talking BP here with deep pockets but rather investors that create companies that do not have the cash reserves or assets to cover the cost of a clean up if something went wrong which is the intention otherwise you would see every major oil company charging right in but as it is high risk they will not touch it.

Adding a bit more. Most do not realize that the location of Lakeside Asphalt near Junction City as you come into Aberdeen is the old Standard Oil ( I think Standard ) tank site as when I was a kid oil came in by TANKER and was stored on site in a tank. Add to that the chemicals for the pulp mills did and do come in by truck and rail and believe me many of them are really hazardous. Lord a leak at the Cosy mill sets of alarms to evac all around Cosy. Had to do the dash to a safe area more than once when the alarm went off along with a lot of Cosy folk.

Everything we do in modern society carries risk. Now risk is one thing but Russian roulette with old tracks with and a cargo that can and will explode if it derails is something different. The word stupid comes to mind.

You retired locals with boats need to set aside July 8 to join an oil protest flotilla led by a delegation from the QIN.

Boats will gather in the Bay and ascend the lower Hoquiam to moor at the new 9th St Landing. From there, particpants will march by foot to Hoquiam City Hall to plead our case.

There are scheduled keynote speakers with time for an open mike at the end.

PM me for details.

NO Crude Oil Rally/March on Hoquiam City Hall July 8

12:45 PM
Boats/canoes/kayaks converge near NE Rennie Island to begin paddling/motoring up Hoquiam River mouth to 9th St Landing.

1:30 PM
Boats gather at 9th St Landing

2:00-2:40 PM
Boats moor, folks disembark and gather at 9th and Levee St. Anyone (non-boat folks) can join in by foot at this juncture. Buses from Taholah and Queets deliver additional marchers/participants.

2:40 PM
Begin marching to Hoquiam City Hall

3:00 PM
Arrive at Hoquiam City Hall

PROGRAM:
Welcome song/prayer by QIN President Fawn Sharp
QIN President Fawn Sharps speaks
Hoquiam Mayor Dickhoff speaks
Other speakers:
Larry Thevik
Jackie Farra
Other tribal leaders
County Commissioner Frank Gordon
VP Tyson Johnston
Shavaughna
OPEN MIC
Closing song/prayer by Marco Black

4:15 PM
Participants disperse

FOOD: Location TBD.

Whether by boat or by foot, we NEED you!

http://www.standuptooil.org/take-action/

Once this industry gets a foothold in our community, God only knows how much expansion the future holds. Once the area becomes known as a regional crude oil depot, it gives every other place an excuse to keep it coming our way.... we become the sacrificial lamb.

"Ah hell, Grays Harbor's already fukked... just keep the crude oil development there."

Is this what we want for our community?



No thanks.

I'd rather keep this...

Amen Francis!

The recent Mosier(sp?) derailment certainly adds fuel to our fire-pun intended. No doubt the Harbor economy needs help but this ain't it.

Not hard to imagine this happening on the Chehalis if the permits go thru.

I wonder that if we continue to over harvest our fish resources and otherwise muck up the habitat that proposals like this may succeed because "you're not using the river to produce fish"

Back in the late 70s WDF developed a plan for Puget Sound salmon that require at least one species pf salmon (Chinook, coho, chum) to be managed on a wild basis in order to ensure the ability to protect habitat. I would not be surprised if a smart business looked at how a watershed is actually managed versus what it says on paper. They might even attack ESA. Say you listed a species in 1995 and the abundance has, at best, stabilized at what it was when listed. Might be able to argue that you really don't want to protect/recover so let "me" do my thing.

You seem to have a vested interest in projects like this succeeding ( or at least play "devil's advocate"). I'm not quite sure that I get your point, is this a "wake-up call" to us that if the fisheries fail (which we may lose no matter what we as individuals do) we should expect dangerous, irresponsible shi* shoved down our throat? Just what is your point? That this is inevitable and we all should stick our heads in the sand and wait for the big bang? All this crap goes off-shore to make some dangerous, irresponsible pieces of crap rich? I don't think so, not over my (or LOTS of other folks )bodies. Bob R

The point is that if we don't aggressively protect our natural resources there will be no reason to save them. We refuse to deal with human population. They gotta eat, they need water.

We have been very happy to see the rest of the world develop, to aspire for more goods that we produced. Then, they started building them cheaper and we loved that because we could spend less money to get the same item.

Look at what has happened to the natural resources (especially anadromous fish) in the Atlantic. And western Pacific. That is what is happening here because we all allow it to.

Ask yourself if you would be willing to live (anywhere) if the requirement that life there was locally (say 100 miles) sustainable. All the products used were produced in that 100 mile circle from water to food to fiber to energy. If the answer is "I don't want to live like that" then somebody else has to destroy their locality to support you.

I don't necessarily want to see this project happen but I do want there to be a better alternative that is possible and viable. Simply saying no is, at least to me, not enough.

I see your point. But exporting coal and oil needs to end.

It is coming back to us as poison to us and our pets. Jimi Hendrix worded it like Castles made of sand crumble to the Sea eventually.

Where will, in the short term, India and China get power? China has destroyed a magnificent river with a hydro dam.

A point made to me by a number of folks is that China holds a significant proportion of US debt. Do we want to piss them off?

So what happens if we just say Fuk you China and this debt you claim that the USA owes you. What the hell are you going to do?

We are bankrupt an can not pay our bills. Do you think China will invade the mainland USA ?

Just who would loan the US money if we welched on a debt? No need to invade, just take all the money away.

Why the hell should we as a country worry about borrowing money.

Hell, let's just print more of our own worthless muny as we have been doing for years and get ready for WW III.

Well, hyperinflation is one good reason. And since we are no longer on the gold standard the value of U.S. money is directly tied to confidence in our economy to include paying off our debts (or at least servicing its interest obligations).

Click at your own peril....

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

And printing more (and more, and more) money would solve that problem? Not.

Back on topic...

The decision looms ever closer.

Bottom line, this beautiful land/river/sea-scape is what's at risk.



How fitting that the latest protest rally would take place right thru the heart of that aerial photo.





















I joined this flotilla of tribal canoes, fishing boats, and kayaks that made a grand entrance thru the mouth of the Hoquiam River to descend upon the city center. We were received by a crowd of hundreds that marched with us to City Hall where multiple speakers denounced the proposed storage of Bakken crude oil in our quaint little hamlet by the bay.

Sorry I didn't get more pics of the ceremonial canoes, the crowd at the dock, or the march itself..... but I must say it was a TREMENDOUS outpouring of community support.

Highlight for me was listening to this young man take the microphone... 10 yr old Isaac Gil. For such a young man, he had a commanding presence at the podium... articulate and incredibly projected in his delivery, speaking from the heart with conviction and confidence.

I'm with you Isaac.... JUST SAY NO!



City of Hoquiam, I sure hope you're listening!

From the Aberdeen Daily World today...

http://thedailyworld.com/news/local/protest-against-crude-oil-grays-harbor-draws-hundreds

Great pics and write-up, Doc.

Fish on...

Todd

And for you FaceBook types....

https://www.facebook.com/CitizensForACleanHarbor

Lotsa pics and even video clips of the event! Better than any newscast!

Text copy of my turn at the mic...

The overarching theme of this rally is SHARED WATERS, and to that end, my personal war cry is SHARED WATERS, SHARED SALMON.

Salmon are iconic to the Pacific Northwest and sacred to the Quinault people. Historically, the Chehalis River was once a literal salmon superhighway, and the streams of Grays Harbor have sustainably produced salmon for centuries. In modern times, I’ve personally witnessed phenomenal runs of nearly a quarter million coho, over 50,000 chum, and over 40,000 chinook salmon. To me personally, sustainable salmon are my passion. I marvel at their unyielding tenacity to complete their life cycle while also recognizing all too keenly their tremendous food value. More than anything, I just like to catch them. For me and many of my fishy peers, the experience borders on religion.

SHARED WATERS, SHARED SALMON

They’re a HUGE reason why I’ve chosen to call Grays Harbor home for the past 22 years. I’ve fished all over the west coast from the Columbia River north to Kodiak Alaska… and on a good year, there’s no finer salmon fishing than what I’ve got 30 minutes from my doorstep. Over my career, I’ve amassed a ridiculously well stocked arsenal of fishing tackle, and for the next 3-4 months, I‘ll spend many a sleepless night strategizing on how best to use it to fill my boat’s fishbox…. much to the delight of my family, my friends, and my neighbors.

SHARED WATERS, SHARED SALMON

Salmon are a keystone species, the lifeblood of the natural economy linking the Pacific Ocean to the temperate rainforest ecosystem and all the creatures that call it home. In their annual spawning migration, our local salmon deliver through their bodies a tremendous biomass of marine derived nutrients to fertilize and support the inland forest all the way up to the Olympic mountains. Along the way, they support valuable commercial and recreational fisheries shared by the state and the Quinault Indian Nation.

SHARED WATERS, SHARED SALMON

To thrive, young salmon need a cool clean river flowing into an unspoiled estuary that serves as their nursery before they transition to a life in the ocean pasture. It is the river and the estuary that are at greatest risk from the threat of transporting and storing Bakken crude oil in Hoquiam. An oil spill into the mainstem Chehalis or directly into Grays Harbor would be devastating to salmon and the local fisheries dependent on them.

We who share the salmon must ask the policymakers, “With whom shall we be made to share our waters?”

The folks bringing us these toxic and explosive oil trains? Thanks, but NO THANKS! I learned long ago that oil and water just don’t mix, and it’s as true now as it was then. Crude oil is just a bad fit for the Grays Harbor economy and the coastal life style that we all enjoy. Simply said, SPOILED WATERS THREATEN SHARED SALMON.

Among the many reasons presented by my fellow speakers, this is why I believe this permit MUST be denied.

As I testified at the public hearing last fall in Aberdeen, the question we must ALL ask ourselves is, “Is it worth the risk?

Well…. to quote a Native Alaskan elder speaking on behalf of Bristol Bay salmon, I say

No… Not no… Not just no… But HELL NO!

Thank you.

The CFCH FaceBook page links to a Flickr album posted by John Duffy with some absolutely stunning on the water pics. It will make you feel like you were right there in the thick of things.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jduf4/sets/72157670758964426/page1

Thank you for taking time to represent those of us who couldn't be there. It is gratifying to see representatives from the sportfishing community and the QIN unified in advocacy over this extreme threat to our community, passion, and way of life.

^ +1

Testified tonight at the Aberdeen City Council where they ultimately voted UNANIMOUSLY to ban the storage and handling of crude oil within the city limits.



Add Aberdeen to the growing list of communities STATEWIDE that have passed similar legislation.

Are ya listening, Hoquiam?

Great minute-long video capsule of our day on the water led by tribal canoes, the riverside reception of the flotilla, the citizens march to Hoquiam City Hall, and a few choice sound bytes from the microphone.... all beautifully captured in moving pictures.



Click on the YouTube logo to watch it in HD quality!

JUST SAY NO! How 'bout this one?

http://koin.com/2016/07/13/city-of-vancouver-opposed-to-oil-terminal-plans/

That’s why we are looking at banning oil facilities and refineries in expansion to terminal companies.”

“Vancouver is choosing its future right now,” Serres said. “They’re choosing to move to a waterfront development that is $1.5 billion that will connect its city to the waterfront.”

Hey, you FaceBook types... blast this out to all your friends.

https://www.facebook.com/StandUpToOil/posts/1741726576086783

The decision looms ever closer...

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Topic of oil terminals causes tension at Hoquiam City Council meeting

Mayor Dickhoff responds to criticism by project opponents

TERRI HARBER: Tue Sep 27th, 2016 6:45amNEWS





It wasn’t included on the Hoquiam City Council agenda for Monday night’s meeting, but the two crude-by-rail terminal projects proposed for construction in the city took up most of the meeting and caused tension between city officials and some of the opponents of the projects.

Hoquiam Mayor Jasmine Dickhoff became upset with some of the opponents who were making comments from the audience about the initial permitting process for Westway Terminal Co. LLC and Renewable Energy Group, Inc., formerly Imperium Terminal Services, to construct the terminals.

She said defending the system works well when it benefits you, but criticizing it when it results in an unfavorable outcome is “hypocritical.”

The negative comments from the audience in response to that statement became louder and she looked out to a specific section and told one person, “I’m not getting in a debate with you.”

She defended City Administrator Brian Shay regarding criticism about his demeanor, specifically his appearing not to make eye contact when the subject comes up during public meetings.

Shay has been working for the past two years with the Department of Ecology to find a solution and he “is making detailed notes, not looking away,” Dickhoff said.

Opponents collected more than 8,500 signatures on a petition addressed to Dickhoff, Shay and the Washington State Department of Ecology stating their concerns about the projects’ impact on the region and its residents and presented them to the council Monday night.

When another opponent asked the council to make its feelings about the project known, council members Richard Pennent and Dave Wilson said they were against the project.

Pennant said he’d prefer the city be sued by the corporations than the Quinaults and “other friends,” so that it would be best to deny the permits.

Dickhoff has expressed opposition to it in the past as well.

The final Environmental Impact Statement is expected to be made public Friday, and the city will decide what to do in the coming weeks and months, Shay said.

Grays Harbor has the worst unemployment level on the wet side and falls number 3 in the state.
ECONOMY Aberdeen, Washington United States
Unemployment Rate 9.90% 6.30%
Recent Job Growth -0.37% 1.18%
Future Job Growth 29.40% 36.10%
Sales Taxes 8.63% 6.00%

So what is it you are saying? That a crude oil terminal would actually improve the unemployment issues in Grey's Harbor ? The number of jobs available to locals would be piss in the overall numbers, unless you mean we all could make money cleaning up major oil spills? Or will we be stuffing bodies into bags like the folks in Canada had to do when 30 or 40 people died in the ensuing explosion from a derailment? Just where ARE you coming from? Bob R

I am simply putting facts on the table.Sorry you have a problem with that.

I was actually wondering what Francis thinks of this.Something different needs to be done to keep the coastal logging communities alive.What is it going to be?

As Timothy Egen wrote, "Greys Harbor is a collection of broken towns relying on a broken economy."

Do you suggest that moving from one broken economy to the next is the answer??

Greys Harbor's future is dependent on a healthy ecosystem not in its destruction!!!

I notice you didn't mention the people killed in Canada that I pointed out from just ONE derailment. I guess the derailment on the Columbia river earlier this year didn't impress you a bit, either. I do have a problem with that, and the idea that you would even begin to support this kind of mindless garbage on a forum devoted to outdoor activities. Your "viewpoint" (obviously from someone with no "vision" of deaths and destruction that are so obvious to the rest of us) must be profit driven, that's the only logical reason to support crap like this crude oil terminal. Are you a stakeholder or just an idiot? As far as what Francis thinks of this you must not have read the whole thread. Or have you already forgotten what he posted earlier? I wouldn't be surprised, your opinion shows a serious lack of thought. Bob R

Meth and meth addicts a sustainable future. Who needs gas anyway, electric boats is where its at.

I'm proud to live in Grays Harbor (although I must admit finding a job locally is a needle in a haystack proposition).

Without question, the county's greatest asset is its natural resources. Bomb trains can only negatively impact those resources, and they won't bring lasting, meaningful jobs to the county. Sounds like a poor fit to me.

Comments like, "We need gas" are ridiculous. The market is saturated as it is.

I'd love to see more commerce through the Port, but not at the expense of the reasons I choose to make my home in Grays Harbor.

Where did I say I was for or against anything?Quit assuming things.I do not live in Grays harbor and would not assume the right to tell them how to live.

Thanks for the reply.I t seems people know what they do not want out there I was just curious as to what people were open to.It does seem to me that it is going to have to do with the Port.I remember years ago there was talk of making Aberdeen into a major port.I wonder what happened to that.

The mayor might have some good ideas on keeping the community alive, and last time I checked, Francis wasn't the mayor yet.

I did talk to my brother in law yesterday.He works for the city .Basically shrugged his shoulders.He used to have a small cedar mill as a neighbor ........now it is a razor wire encircled pot farm.The new Grays Harbor?

CORRECTION:
Those significant impacts to health and safety are 100% avoidable.

Just DENY the permit.

Does the City of Hoquiam really need a 3600 page document to tell them that?

Sorry Eyefish,
but I don't think that argument is valid. Of course there is a danger if an accident occurs. The 3600 page document is needed to tell them how high the likely hood that an accident will occur, what the likely hood of an accident occurring that has significant damage is, etc.

I bet you every surgery you do has a risk. And I bet if you screw up, that damage could be significant. I also bet you carry insurance and rarely if ever have screwed up. Recently my son took some medicine recommended by his doctor and ended up in intensive care with a severe reaction. No one messed up, it just that with this medicine there was a very slim chance of a problem. He, unfortunately, was the first person that anyone in the hospital had ever seen that had that reaction. Yes, it was clearly stated as possible on the prescription, but everyone believed the risk was greater than the potential of a side effect. We take risks every day and measure the risk against reward. Every time we get in a car we take on risk and cause a slight impact to the environment.

I can's say if the risk is worth it for the plant, but I can say that in all the state, the most of the cheapest houses that exist are in Aberdeen and Hoquiam. Over 18 under $55 thousand. Something must be done.

That is what brought this to my attention.Looked into property and was amazed at the prices.Going to take advantage of it at a recreational level.

Funny thing is that I would be on Francis side of the room if I was a local.But because I ask about the elephant in the room that makes this depot even possible, and I get attacked.The permit is not being denied because you guys are flat fuckking broke and somebody just walked into the room,waving a lot of money around.

The problem is not stopping the depot, but maybe offering an alternative to the starving people and the greedy politicians.

Hey, toobad:

If you really believe oil trains that make noise, spew diesel, hold up traffic (including emergency vehicles), and are a constant threat to send tens or hundreds of people to an early death will improve real estate values, I've got a few things I'd like to sell you. A hundred jobs, mostly awarded to union laborers who don't and won't live around here, is not an attractive enough incentive to be anywhere near worthy of the risk associated with these projects.

You're right to point out that as long as the right palms get greased, public opinion will cease to matter overnight. That IS the way our corrupt government operates. So far, oil prices are too low for the venture to be as profitable as what the investors would like. If that doesn't change soon, the oil companies will abandon all these projects. That is my hope.

Yes, Grays Harbor needs new economic activity. There are plenty of other things that can be shipped or received at the Ports; things that don't jeopardize the area's greatest assets and could provide local, long-term jobs; you know, the kind that help real estate.

I do not want the train.I do not want the train......How many times and ways do I have to say this. If I was there I would be standing next to Francis saying no trains full of oil.I am saying that the reason the train is even on the table is the collapse of the economy.a viable alternative would kill the depot.

Ah they ship by rail because enviros keep jamming pipelines which by the way is the safest way to move petro be it aviation gas for a airport or crude. Global warming crusade for renewable resource development by making everything but to expensive is at the heart of it.

If you think any of these projects were ever intended to help anyone in Grays Harbor County, that's where you're losing me, toobad. Grays Harbor's economy has been in shambles for a long time, and it's never motivated anyone in government or the private sector to take action to avoid a collapse. This is about big profits for big oil, with a side of big carbon tax revenues for the State. For sure, it was sold as jobs, jobs, jobs, but that's never been the motive, and it certainly wouldn't be the long-term outcome.

To Rivrguy's point, it's also about an alternative to blocked pipeline projects. We're not anywhere near ready to get off oil, so to say one or the other is coming our way seems only honest, much as I hate to say it. Pipelines aren't stellar stewards of environments or safety, either, but they have a much safer track record than oil trains....

Could be the the proverbial nail in the coffin...

http://www.thedailyworld.com/news/oil-ca...-supreme-court/

And this from the Seattle Times...

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news...n-oil-terminal/

It is not just oil guys. The Obama Admin held the wind farm power grid from Texas which is clean energy along with several other projects that add up to over 300 billion of infrastructure work. That our nation needs to be self sufficient in energy is a given and it needs to be done the safest manner possible and as fast as possible to get off foreign oil. Our tanker problem comes because for whatever the reason we have ran in PC correct circles on infrastructure as the politicians battled out the global warming bit. That did nothing for global warming ( if that is your bag ) or energy independence because we then import it from other places. So we need to do our own energy and do it as safe as possible.

Then the other shoe CLEAN energy as fast as it can be done be it solar / wind / or whatever by making it advantageous for all our activities to move away from carbon based fuel. It can be done you know. When my brother had his place in LV his heat was electric as was water. In LV water and heat should be solar and it can be done in fact many things can be done to reduce the use of carbon fuels. Take cars I drove a Tesla S the other day guys that is one damn fine car and no gas no oil. It can be done if we choose too as a nation.

My in-laws had a solar hot water heater in Seattle and the damn thing worked pretty well. We looked at solar here at our new place but the neighboring trees made it marginal.

Our kids new house in Irvine CA has solar electricity on the roof plus sub-irrigation for water. Like Rivrguy says, it is amazing he places we aren't using it. Like Hawaii.

One of the key things that we need to deal with is the continuity of supply. There are some situations (hospitals, air traffic control, etc) where we must have reliable power 60/60/24/7/365. That means really huge batteries or some options for when the wind don't blow and the sun don't shine. Certainly not insurmountable, but we must think.

We also need to understand that until we get breeder reactors and other Star Trek advances that we will need fossil fuels. And we will have to make choices. You want to burn that gas in your boat chasing salmon on the Big Blue or save that petroleum for the (say) Navy and Zoomies.

I just called the PUD in Grays Harbor, ask their opinion on a "made up" situation where money was no object, which source of heat would be the best in Grays Harbor...

1. Her choice would be "gas" but the limiting factor here is, gas is not available everywhere.

2. There is a "new type" of heat pump, that is better than the heat pumps that have been around for years. These use ductwork.

3. Ductless heat/cooling units, I have 2 of these......not the best looking but they work "GREAT".

Geo thermal, which was and is used, but Bonneville has not found them to be "cost effective" so there is no rebate program!!!!!!

We talked about baseboard.....but it was all negative...

I like my "ductless units" but I also have an insert......my house has been perfect the past few weeks!!!!

Well it's finally come full circle and thought folks deserved an update.... CRUDE OIL IN GH IS DEAD!

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/aug/30/crude-oil-no-longer-in-plans-port-of-grays-harbor-/