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#943755 - 11/22/15 06:14 PM We ARE Salmon People
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
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"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

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Long Live the Kings!

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#943782 - 11/23/15 11:07 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Here is a link to a preliminary report presented to the Commission in August 2015 focusing on smolt mortality: http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2015/08/aug0715_06_presentation.pdf.

Of particular interest are pages 31 to 40 comparing various river systems. Difficult to comprehend how the Nisqually has water quality issues whereas the Snohomish does not.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#943848 - 11/24/15 09:00 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: Larry B]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Here is a link to a preliminary report presented to the Commission in August 2015 focusing on smolt mortality: http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2015/08/aug0715_06_presentation.pdf.

Of particular interest are pages 31 to 40 comparing various river systems. Difficult to comprehend how the Nisqually has water quality issues whereas the Snohomish does not.


That's really interesting. The parasitic infection isn't very surprising, but the PBDE contamination isn't something I expected. I wonder if recovery of SS steelhead is even possible.

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#943854 - 11/24/15 09:59 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
At least up until recently there was a real issue with any yearling or older smelt that has to pass the narrows. Chinook, coho, and steelhead all sucked. I saw some data where Minter Creek yearling White River Chinook served at a lower rate than fingerling White River fish released at the White River hatchery. ALL of deep SS has problems.

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#943883 - 11/24/15 07:55 PM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
I still need to listen to the presentation in hopes that the audio will elaborate on some of the rather (to me) complex aspects of the studies and answer several questions.

The first that comes to mind is the PBDE level. Seriously, in the Nisqually? Did the tribal casino dump their fire extinguisher system into the river?? (That is the common usage of that stuff, right?)

Then there is the parasitic infection. Again, why the Nisqually? Wouldn't that organism be carried to and infest other rivers in P.S.?

And, finally, the statistics indicating that yearlings have a higher mortality rate than fingerlings getting through the Narrows. Again, what has changed in the last 30-40 years? Well, while not politically correct to point the finger at pinnipeds the fact remains that Puget Sound harbor seals have increased from several hundred in the early '70s to around 17,000 today. Seals may not chase a fingerling but a yearling? Predation is mentioned but it just seemed to me that the authors preferred to not go there. Hakim's Razor comes to mind.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#943886 - 11/24/15 08:15 PM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Remember that the Nisqually flows through JBLM and there is likely lots of stuff spread around there. Pinnipeds are a problem as are, I think, the increase in lingcod in the Narrows. We created some new hidey places with the new bridge, too.

But, it gets back to the fact that this mortality issue has been recognized at least for a decade, maybe 1.5. Should be time to get some studies under way.

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#943887 - 11/24/15 08:41 PM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Piper
Unregistered


I didn't watch the video, (no streaming at work)... but will add my 2cents

when I think of parasitic infections, I think warm water. I think of warmer temperatures raised due to water sitting behind a dam or God forbid, climate change... I also think about all the millions of gallons of warm microbe infested waste water dumped daily into rivers, lakes, aquifers, and ultimately, puget sound. Some treated, some just diluted, but most is mixed with trace amounts of chemicals (think of all the treatment plants just to name a few: Lott, Chambers creek, commencement bay, south plant, West point, Brightwater)

We are harvesting crab, geoducks, oysters clams and other filter feeders at an alarming rate... those same critters that scrub the nasties out of the water... has anyone ever considered the amount of water that one geoduck filters in a year, how about multiplying that by the number that are harvested over the course of a year...

our rivers are barren wastelands with no surplus biomass because we harvest every last fish out and then some... baby fish need bugs (dead fish), fish eggs (lots of spawners) and other baby fish (the weak ones) in order to thrive in the rivers. not to mention shrimp, crab, larvae, bait fish, and all sorts of other biological matter in the water that is not human poop, piss and chemically contaminated storm water runoff...

working for an engineering firm that deals in everything wastewater and storm water, I can tell you that it is getting better. but in the last hundred years we fu(ked it up pretty good, and we continue to fu(k it up daily by dumping fertilizers on our lawns and flushing chemicals down our sinks and toilets... Honestly, I don't know that the fish will last as long as it takes to fix it our fu(k ups... not at the current harvest rates and exploding population growth.

we have met the enemy and the enemy is us... we are so worried about that one issue that is affecting the fish that we are forgetting about the thousand other factors...

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#943899 - 11/25/15 08:05 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Jason Beezuz Offline
My Waders are Moist

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3440
Loc: PNW
Great post Piper.
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Maybe he's born with it.

Maybe it's amphetamines.

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#943901 - 11/25/15 08:16 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: Jason Beezuz]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: Jason Beezy
Great post Piper.
+1.

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#943917 - 11/25/15 11:37 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: ]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Piper, you have touched on a number of possible issues affecting South Sound generated salmonoids but as I asked - What has changed?

The Alder dam on the Nisqually went on line in late 1945 which does not correlate to the time line for the extreme increase in smolt mortality. And has Alder dam actually caused an increase in water temps in the river below the dam?

Also, as has been discussed on other threads Lake Washington and Puget Sound have seen huge amounts of money spent on sanitary sewage treatment facilities over the last 30-40 years resulting in much cleaner (from human waste) waters. At the same time smolt survival has dropped. One might even argue that the loss of human waste as a fertilizer has decreased nutrients in Lk WA and P.S. decreasing marine flora and bottom of the food chain organisms thereby adversely affecting the entire food chain.

Unfortunately, what we are now seeing is sanitary system waste water contaminated with new chemicals such as PBDE surprisingly (to me) found in the Nisqually. My limited knowledge is that those types of complex compounds are not removed during even tertiary waste water treatment.

Is there more to learn? Absolutely. But at the same time we should not be ignoring the obvious even if it is not politically correct. And if our society with full disclosure is still willing to accept the loss of salmonoids to the various marine and avian predators we will be hard pressed to overcome that mentality.

As for ling I would suggest they are far more of an impediment to rockfish recovery than to smolt mortality.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#943928 - 11/25/15 01:41 PM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
As Larry tangentially alludes to, fish (especially wild fish) are a luxury. After everyone is fed, watered, housed, electrified, provided a car and roads to drive on and all the other stuff then we will see what's left for fish.

I know that the Tribes get bashed (and often deservedly so) for a harvest them all mentality but if you noticed the State's argument in a couple of court cases that it is the right of the State to destroy fish runs if it is in the best interest of society. The Tribes are, for better or for worse, the only conservation hammer that gets used.

I can see the day coming when only Tribal fishing will be allowed for WA salmonids because the state has chosen to take its harvest as development.

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#943933 - 11/25/15 03:13 PM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: Larry B]
Piper
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Larry B
Piper, you have touched on a number of possible issues affecting South Sound generated salmonoids but as I asked - What has changed?




Larry, I don't dissagree, and I've only actually touched on one minor local issue that I am personally connected to, out of a thousand others that affect fish...

you ask what has changed? I say alot has changed... how many more housing developements and strip malls have been built in river drainages. How many more septic tanks have been built, lawns fertilized, roads paved and widened, and people to be fed? these are just the local challenges. To be honest, we cannot fix the fu(kups of the past as fast as we are fu(king up the present...

We've dammed all the major spawning grounds and diked all the estuaries to turn them into shipping ports and outfalls. We have upset the food chain by protecting predators, mass producing their food and harvesting natural food in order to feed the un-natural; even further upsetting what little we have allowed mother nature to sustain.

what is the future? who knows... but it would be a good idea to study the demise of Atlantic samlon for a glimpse at where we are headed in puget sound...

we're still lucky to have a few places that are still somewhat protected locally but even those aren't safe from the global issues of overharvest, predation, and poor ocean conditions...




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#943934 - 11/25/15 03:45 PM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
gooybob Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 993
Loc: Tacoma
The earth and it's inhabitants can only take so much. But greed appears to be too strong to stop the carnage.

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#943940 - 11/25/15 06:39 PM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
To piggyback on Piper's thoughts let's just say we improve Seattle's waste water/sewage by 50%. It now discharges half the nutrients and chemicals as before. We double the population and haven't changed a thing.

We each reduce our water use by 10% to save water for fish. And when population increases by 11%, the fish lose water.

What we seem to forget is that our impact, today, is excessive. Simply reducing our individual footprint is little more than warm and fuzzy unless there is a cumulative reduction in total impact.

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#943941 - 11/25/15 06:47 PM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Another tangential thought...but didn't the Chinook hatchery at McAllister Creek close to due intense and constant parasite infections due to poor water quality?

It's right there next to the Nisqually.

Fish on...

Todd
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#943944 - 11/25/15 08:56 PM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
McAllister had a bad bug problem. It was (most likely) caused by I-5. When built, the creek was choked at the new freeway. More water backed up and the system became habitat for the bug. Couple this with the hatchery intake, at high tide, sucked in the hatchery effluent.

The Nisqually hatcheries do pretty well for Chinook. But, that system has been a long-time poor performer for coho.

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#943953 - 11/26/15 09:54 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
When I asked the question "What's changed?" it was primarily directed at the issues on the Nisqually compared to other systems further north - specifically the Snohomish. See the linked I provided and particularly pages 31-40 which provide those comparisons.

Through the efforts of a variety of fishing/conservation groups the Nisqually delta was spared industrial development and the agricultural diking from the early 1900s has been significantly removed/breached to provide more habitat for young fish. Yes, there is a dam on the river but it was put on line in 1945 so presumably any adverse affects became the new norm in the 50s - long before this current smolt mortality phenomenon. And I would opine that population growth in the Snohomish basin has been far greater than in the Nisqually basin. Then there is the relative lack of riparian development what with tribal lands and Ft. Lewis. On the face of it the Nisqually should be the poster child at least in comparison to those other systems.

That said, I had forgotten about the closure of McAllister Creek's facility in part due to infestation. Not sure if it is the same organism identified in the study but if it developed after I-5 that would put it no earlier than the early to mid-60s then possibly migrating into the entire delta. If so, does that undo the efforts to provide that additional estuary habitat? Another Master's or PhD study???
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#943954 - 11/26/15 10:06 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If memory serves, the McAllister parasite required a snail as an intermediate host. The snail needed slough-like conditions, vegetation, and freshwater. The Nisqually has little of that and less with the salt marsh restoration.

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#943955 - 11/26/15 10:33 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
If memory serves, the McAllister parasite required a snail as an intermediate host. The snail needed slough-like conditions, vegetation, and freshwater. The Nisqually has little of that and less with the salt marsh restoration.


If you've remember accurately that would be positive info but would also take me back to the original question.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#943957 - 11/26/15 10:47 AM Re: We ARE Salmon People [Re: eyeFISH]
Piper
Unregistered


anyone heard of the Pack experimental forest? its lands drain into the nisqually near la grande.

it is an interest timeline if you take a look at the studies that have been done... I'm sure the experiments they are doing are totally safe for the fish...

list of studies

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