Would you please explain to me why us (white sport fisherman) can not walk on indian side of the river (Skokomish river)? Also, why can they fish in closed areas. I find that very unfair.. I know that fair has nothing to do with it but still that is messed up....

Maybe it is that **** Geist and Jeff Koenig has no Balls to stand up to the Indians and just learn to say no. May be it is time that we start demanding more from our director other then to stand by and let crap like this happen. We need to write and let our state legislator know how we feel, let them know how bad of a job the management is doing in managing our fish and tell them to start listing to what we have to say. remember this a election year and we do have a say in it. Show them your disgust with the Dept. of Fish and Game. We need a new way to start managing and what we have right now does not work well.

[This message has been edited by Aerofly (edited 08-19-2000).]

Their hands are tied. they have no control over indians. Indians are federal. But I do agree Koeings is sell us off as the rest of the politicians.

dcrzfitter

I've got a solution but I'd probably get another one of those great e-cards from the natives if I actually posted it.

They want equal rights OK. They want more fish OK. They want settlement money for suffering OK. They want tax evasion OK. They want fed loans to open casinos OK. I think the feds need to say NO. The other two letter word thats OK with me. It seems that we are being dicriminated against now. I find it hard to believe they are allowed to harvest half of our hatchery fish we pay for. This isn't the old west sorry! They don't need to fish, if they want to pass on the old ways than DO IT THAT WAY. I want to see canoe's and hand retrive nets. YES people thats the old way. I don't even want to get started with whaling. J.C.B

Dudes need to relax!!! I'm neither Indian nor a "white sportfisherman" but I know that fishing in someone else's property/"nation" is wrong unless you get permission first. Geez this great country of ours, the proverbial "ethnic melting pot," has already pushed the Skokomish onto a small plot of land - a fraction of what they romped on prior to Euro-American settlement. Not only that, we stuck a dam on the river. We haven't done the Skoks any favors lately, why should they shoot us one.

Yes, I'm extremely upset at the number of chinook the Muckleshoots harvested. Needless to say, it falls well short of sharing in common. For me this hits home especially hard because in the past I have relied on the Seacrest pier for both spiritual and subsistence needs during the summer. But after reading the above passages I was saddened because I realized a solution is nowhere in sight. There's too much hatred and no leadership.

Hoh,
I went a little far there. But its like this, if they think I owe them a dam thing their wrong. The real people that owe them something are dead. These people have been gone for a long time. You speek as if they are animals locked in a cage. They have ten fingers and toes just like us. They need to quit the games, this bit about tradition is crap. As I said before CANOE AND CAST NETS. They never used motors back in the day. There may be a few out their doing the traditional art of fishing. Its just too bad most are greedy. The greedy are NOT indians their pillagers. And that label goes too all gill netting slaughtering pigs. These people are lazy, Why not grow them in pin nets? I'll gladly pay extra for a licence if it stops the walls of death. I would like my child to see fish in stream. Buy the ones who fish for the money out. I say exchange their right to fish for the real money maker NET PIN FISH. Let the wild fish thrive. J.C.B

I never could understand why folks have a problem understanding the notion of traditional ways. It really doesn't mean using traditional methods; nor should it.

When I was working in fisheries management,I had lots of opportunities to work with commercial fishermen. I've heard some of these folks talk of being 5 generations commercial fishermen and the traditions that it invokes in their families and lives; these people would do nothing else. But they don't launch 16 ft dingys with a handline and a stout pair of gloves and gut check halibut to their boats. Great grand dad may have done it that way, but not current generations. The tradition is in what they do for a living, not doing things in the old ways. Same goes for the Indians.

Every four years (or is it 2?) the whole world watches the Olympics. But is it the same few track and field events held in the amphitheaters of Greece with a handful of Roman Empire States participating? No, its baseball, basketball, skiing, etc--and the whole world enjoying an ancient tradition started in the Mediterranean. Everybody values traditions, but it doesn't mean going about it in some outdated obsolete way.

I don't think Federal policy regarding Treaty Fishing Rights is at all aligned with current efforts toward restoring depressed salmon stocks and ESA. I also don't think present allocations follow what is stipulated in the Boldt decision (50/50). Something needs to be done to curb excessive netting of depressed stocks and allow equitable partitioning of hatchery stocks.

But the Indians are really acting like any of us. We fish the seasons that are open, loggers log the forests that they are allowed too, developers build where ever they can get permits to build. No use getting pissed off at those making a living, or define "Usual and Accustomed Fishing Areas" by a definition that doesn't hold water.

We all would do best to target the Feds and their apparent inconsistent policies regarding Tribal fisheries, recreational fisheries, and stock restoration.



[This message has been edited by obsessed (edited 08-22-2000).]

The olympics is a total different thing. These are animals that can't be replaced. The olympics can.Yes your right the feds need more pressure.

It never ceases to amaze me that some people are truely demented. Get a permit and a gun? Shoot someone, because you want to trespass? You need to see a therapist. Our limited natural resources are extremely precious, but I have to say not worth killing over. Should I feel free to stomp across some farmers land and stick a gun in the owners face when he asks me to leave?

Sad, truely sad.

I agree somewhat with your post Obsessed. However, I have tried to target the Fed.s by pinning the NMFS down with questions that they are reluctant to or just won't answer, because they know things are really out of whack. Why? is the big Q! This is not an accusation, just a possible scenario: could the huge Indian Casino money have found it's way into politician election campaign coffers? So that now the Indians are constiuents to favor, for more contributions. How else can we explain the utter unfair allocations favoring the Indians over and outside of Fed. Court decisions defining the 50/50 split of fish deemed harvestable? Or can the D.C. non-fishing politicos be as stupid and unfair as they've been portrayed for so long? I'm still trying to find out the answers. - RT

RT,
Did you happen to see the article "States,The Tribes,And the Columbia in the last issue of STS magazine? I found it to be a very interesting article on allocation. Most interesting was a bit of speculation that the feds are giving the tribes a blank check in return for backing off breaching the lower snake river dams. This wouldn't surprise me at all.

I agree that the tribes have received the short end of the stick throughout history, but does it really seem right to say a white man can't fish on "their" side of the river, but they CAN fish on "our" side of the river? That's not a fair deal, that's BS. If they can freely fish and net from the south side, how come we can't fish from the north side?

I'm for treating all people fairly, and like JCB said, I'm not responsible for the past treatment of the treaty tribes, but yet here they are discriminating against me. This is the very kind of thing that breeds resentment and racism between groups of people.

Fish on.........

Personaly I feel sorry for the natives, 30 years ago an indian was a nature loving, mis understood, people. Now when I just hear the word indian, I think of casinos, cigatrettes, illegal fireworks, snagging, and gill netting.(the last two are native fish killers) Not exactly the legacy you would think they want to pass to thier children. Just my .02
PS, I don't condone any commercial fishing that kills off posibly endangered fish.

RT

I don't think policy makers at NMFS or the politicos are stupid, and fairness is not often an issue in politics. I think you and Neanderthal are on the right track--the Indians are playing the political game just like everyone else, using whatever leverage they can muster, whether it be money or influence. Problem is, sporties can't do the same, so WE are not playing the game.

I think the apparent re-interpretation of Treaty Fishing Rights has been drastically affected by ESA. As Cohoangler pointed out in a previous thread, the Indian allocation of hatchery fish is made PRIOR to any ESA considerations, the largest being incidental take of ESA fish. So if the allocation is made, and it is determined that the harvest of this allocation will take most or all of the incidental take of ESA fish, then all other users (sporties and commercials) do not receive allocations.

This seems to be the initial legal interpretation of Treaty Fishing Rights with ESA thrown in, but it is not necessarily the only interpretation or the correct one. I think justifiable arguements can be made that with hatchery fish raised by State or Federal monies, ESA incidental take considerations should apply equally to both sporties and tribes. In other words, we get half of incidental take (or a third if the commercials are involved). The justification could be that these fish were raised for commercial operations on the coast (if indeed so), and recreational opportunities in the rivers. Why would hatchery fish be raised solely for Tribal take? I don't know if this argument will cut through the Treaty language, but I think this is in line with what the States are thinking.

In this sense, it seems fruitless to ask NMFS why. I think NMFS feels they have legally interpreted Treaty Fishing Rights with the ESA issue (or at least their bosses in DC think so). It now seems we have to provide alternative legal interpretations and send the matter to the courts.

The bottom line may be that sporties don't have any lawyers thinking about these things like the Indians and politicos.

Dan S

This is a jurisdictional issue, not discriminatory. If we want to fish the Columbia River, on the Oregon side, we need an Oregon license. If we want to fish some lakes and streams on Natl Park land, we can't use lead shot. If we want to fish the Quinault or upper Salmon, we need an Indian guide. The Skoks simply haven't pursued providing license or access fees, probably because they fish the river pretty hard themselves.

I will point out, however, that I have fished gravel bars on both sides of the river and the Skoks don't seem to care. They just don't want us on reservation property without permission. Given the sometimes unhealthy relationship between Indians and sporties, can't say I blame them. Although the Skoks can net both sides of the river, I heard that they were restricted to fishing between the bridges, leaving some pretty good tidal holes below the lower bridge. Although I think they can snag anywhere.

[This message has been edited by obsessed (edited 08-23-2000).]

Conquered nation!!!!!!!!!!!They shouldnt get any perks!!!!!!!!!!!!TM

Timberman, which western washington Indian nation was conquered?

TM - Geeeez! Japan was a "conquered nation" (remember the bomb thing) and we turned that country into one of the world economic machines (please don't say otherwise; I'm an army brat). We didn't do that out of guilt, but out of political necessity (they were the eastern commie fighters). Do we treat Germany like a conquered nation? And these folks were "conquered" a lot later than any Indian Tribes. And I'm sure Potter begs the question....what war did western Washington Indians ever fight with settlers?

Or I guess you think that the Skoks and Cherokee are the same; kind of like Germany and France.

Social scientists have shown through extensive studies and experimentation that anger and frustration are the by-products of showing favoritism to one group at the expense of another. Children and adults alike have responded so similarly in these blatantly unfair situations, that you could only conclude the responses were "human nature." When Indians were getting reamed, they didn't care much for it. Their anger, frustration, and rage were understandable. Today, the tables are reversed, and at every turn it appears the tribes are our government's "favored ones". Do I feel sorry for what happened to tribes and individual Indians in past centuries? Yes!!! Do I feel guilty? No!!! Either, I haven't hung out with the "missionaries" long enough to develop a guilt complex, or I realize that the "abused ones" and the "abusers" have been dead for many decades. Punishing non-tribal citizens today for the transgressions of yesteryear makes about as much sense as having a teacher keep this year's class in at recess because some students misbehaved years ago. If you don't think you are being punished, try netting a steelhead run and selling the fish, set up a roadside stand and sell some "explosives", don't pay income tax, try to build a non-tribal casino in Washington, jacklight some deer or elk for your next reception...the list is far too long for this forum. Hopefully, you'll be able to access Bob's bulletin board from prison. Next time you're checked on the river for licenses, punchcards, barbless hooks, bait, scent;size, species, and #'s of fish,plus a valid parking decal, try telling the fishcop you're tired of being culturally and racially profiled.

99.99% of us sport fisher people have the solution's and answer's to our SALMON/STEELHEAD problems but just can't seem to fix it. Because we are to busy fishin,*****in,and pointing finger's and can't give up one or two day's a year to protest and rally in our state capital's to be heard as a non violent group trying to save SALMON/STEELHEAD and keep thing's even and fairly as possible between sporties,native american's and gillnetter's. I don't agree with netting it should be banned because you can't target one species.How ever we as a group need to get off our butt's,couches,boat's and river bank's to do something and be heard.Imagine 10,000 or so sport fisher people at the front step's of Olympia and or Salem capitol's ralling for something we all love and enjoy. Well good luck, STRIKE ZONE