#951691 - 02/21/16 10:32 AM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: 5 * General Evo]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7438
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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I think the desired outcome of the lawsuits is the elimination of hatchery fish. They are using the tried and true tactic of suits to delay. Or filibusters, or however one wishes to slow a process.
WFC will get their wish of extensively reduced hatchery production.
I am of the school of thought that if doing the job right and completely is not worth the investment then you don't do it. If NOAA/WDFW/Tribes aren't willing to get this whole package together in a timely manner then just close it all down as it is not worth the cost to them.
A guy I worked for once said "Don't look at what the Legislature says, look at where they spend their money". Those plans are a very low priority.
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#951693 - 02/21/16 11:41 AM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: Smalma]
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Smolt
Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 86
Loc: Mount Vernon, WA
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I don't think population reduction is necessary -- just a major change in how we live. Nobody, least of all the federal government, dares to say this, but everyone involved knows it's true. There is a big effort right now to take down the Snake River dams to help produce more and better Chinook salmon for whales. Are the sport fishermen, commercial fishermen, or the tribes supporting this? Why was a new car dealership just allowed to be built in the Stillaguamsh. It seems that habitat loss and degradation continues without opposition from any fishing groups. I wish that WFC would ask for a moratorium on development, rather than on hatcheries, until there is a real commitment to salmon and steelhead recovery. And, I wish that fishing groups would demand the same.
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Two Dogs
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#951695 - 02/21/16 11:56 AM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: Carcassman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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I think the desired outcome of the lawsuits is the elimination of hatchery fish. They are using the tried and true tactic of suits to delay. Or filibusters, or however one wishes to slow a process.
Concur, even if their current effort doesn't completely eliminate EWSH plants it will have had a huge impact. If WFC wanted best science they would have sued NOAA to push the process rather than WDFW - the lower hanging fruit.
A guy I worked for once said "Don't look at what the Legislature says, look at where they spend their money". Those plans are a very low priority.
That is a pragmatic, depressing perspective which is, unfortunately, very appropriate to what is occurring. Sisyphus' rock is growing larger and the mountain higher and steeper.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#951704 - 02/21/16 02:17 PM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: 5 * General Evo]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7438
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Everything we do costs money. Money is spent on what we value, or need. Unfortunately, natural resources, especially to the politicos, are a luxury item.
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#951708 - 02/21/16 03:16 PM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: TwoDogs]
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Smolt
Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 77
Loc: Lake Samish
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I don't think population reduction is necessary -- just a major change in how we live. Nobody, least of all the federal government, dares to say this, but everyone involved knows it's true. There is a big effort right now to take down the Snake River dams to help produce more and better Chinook salmon for whales. Are the sport fishermen, commercial fishermen, or the tribes supporting this? Why was a new car dealership just allowed to be built in the Stillaguamsh. It seems that habitat loss and degradation continues without opposition from any fishing groups. I wish that WFC would ask for a moratorium on development, rather than on hatcheries, until there is a real commitment to salmon and steelhead recovery. And, I wish that fishing groups would demand the same. Back in 2014 when WFC was invited to testify in front of the Senate NR committee, they made it very clear that they believe the habitat is fine. Although I share your same desire for what WFC could be doing to actually make a difference, they don't see development or habitat quality as a limiting factor. All they really want is a complete cessation of hatchery production in the PNW; people who aren't on board with their idealism need to start accepting this reality.
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#951810 - 02/23/16 03:09 PM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: TastySalmon]
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Smolt
Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 86
Loc: Mount Vernon, WA
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All they really want is a complete cessation of hatchery production in the PNW; people who aren't on board with their idealism need to start accepting this reality.
I accept the reality of what they want, but their assumption of good habitat does not square with available information, such as the "properly functioning conditions" developed by NMFS 20 years ago. If their key assumption is wrong, it follows that their conclusion is not supported. Complete cessation of hatchery production would be devastating not only for fisheries but also for components of the ecosystem that depend on salmon, such as killer whales. There may not be very many fans of marine mammals on this board, but it can't be denied that further loss of salmon would hurt whale and seal populations. I don't see this point often raised in the hatchery discussion, and I think it should be.
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Two Dogs
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#952031 - 02/25/16 06:38 PM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: Todd]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3513
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Here's a little light reading: I think my head just exploded. Maps were informative, though.
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#952058 - 02/26/16 09:16 AM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: 5 * General Evo]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
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The tribes have objected to (through threat of further cooperation) to having ANY tribal lands designated as "Critical Habitat".
The tribes have stated in letters and meetings that designation of Indian lands as critical habitat will undermine long-term working relationships and reduce the capacity of tribes to participate at current levels in the many and varied forums addressing ecosystem management and conservation of fisheries resources.
The true definition of "Co-manager". We do what we like, when we like and the way we like. if you don't like, sue us. (oh ya, you don't have the money and resources.
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."
1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)
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#952070 - 02/26/16 11:30 AM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: 5 * General Evo]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7438
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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If conservation was their goal, as the claim as "First Conservationists" then they would lead the way in showing the rest of us how land and fisheries should be managed. If.
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#952071 - 02/26/16 11:32 AM
Re: WFC... again...
[Re: 5 * General Evo]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7438
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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I remember attending the World's Fair in Spokane. It was about "the Environment". In the Russian pavilion they justified raping and pillage the countryside because they needed to build the economy...
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