Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#978299 - 07/08/17 11:40 AM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2757
Loc: Marysville
SG-
Think something is amiss with your math. AT 6 smolts/pound and a cost of $10/pound it would cost $1.67 per smolt. At a 0.4% smolt to adult survival it would take 250 smolts to produce a single adult steelhead. 250 times $1.67 equals a cost of $417.50 per adult.

That may still make economic sense. I see that the 2017 WDFW Hoh river steelhead creel survey it took over 5 angler days to catch a single steelhead.

Curt

Top
#978300 - 07/08/17 11:52 AM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5479
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Rivrguy, you are being so charitable. Size of a gain of sand? That'd be Huge. Trump-Class.

Top
#978301 - 07/08/17 02:45 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5479
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
There have been many reviews of the advisability of contracting out the production of anadromous smolts. The general conclusion is that programs run by the state have constraints such as stock (each stream with a different stock) that would severely cut into a private's profits. Also, the state has to rear anadromous fish to survive in the wild whereas privates produce fish that are confined their whole life. Now, the privates can do put and take trout as that is little different from a commercial grow and kill operation.

While I know that the Department of Salmon has not treated game fish and gamefish bios very well I am aware of a very nice summer run steelhead program that WDF ran on the Sol Duc. It was under the table, done because it was fun, etc but it was apparently very successful. And then WDG made a fuss and shut it down. There have been some interesting projects carried on at hatcheries by some inventive and inquisitive staff.

Top
#978303 - 07/08/17 03:10 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Carcassman]
Myassisdragon Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 1134
Loc: The Wet Side
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Rivrguy, you are being so charitable. Size of a gain of sand? That'd be Huge. Trump-Class.


Finally, this thread delivers with a clever Trump call out !
_________________________
Hmmm

- "Wild steelhead were more numerous this year than they were in the 1970s" ( ITYOOL - 2015 )

- "It's past the time to "play nice", after all, they are pooching us royally."

D'uh!

Top
#978305 - 07/08/17 05:24 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12530
Smalma,

Thanks for the catch. That figure did seem high, but in my rush I didn't bother to check the math. My bad!

Krijack,

See above. I messed up the math by about a decimal point, ergo, an order of magnitude. Even so, the cost of smolts is high. Where the numbers came from? Harry Senn, former and long time head of WDF hatchery division. When he retired he consulted on hatchery costs, construction, and operation for BPA. The numbers were modified by other consultants to fit different projects as they came up. Basically the cost is the cost, and includes all costs including amortization of hatchery facilities - capital construction, renovation at 30 years, and replacement at 50 years. All utilities, labor, machinery, supplies, and fish feed are part of the cost.

You want to know the real reason some tribes can produce huge numbers of hatchery fish? OPM = other people's money. Tribes get federal dollars under rights protection funding via the BIA, and certain tribes that have enough political horsepower get directed line item appropriations. Admittedly, some tribes also use locally sourced funds, like from bingo halls and casinos to help fund hatchery programs. But the lions share is federal funding.

A potential cost saving is that many PS hatcheries have cut back the number of steelhead smolts raised and planted. So they likely have above average costs/smolt by being under utilized. Increasing production to design capacity would optimize production costs, but then there's that whole ESA limitation thing affecting hatcheries these days.

Rivrguy,

Chum salmon generally pencil out as having the highest cost:benefit ratio. Although coho and Chinook would have better cost:benefit ratios if we include the value of salmon caught in B.C., not to rub salt in a wound or anything.

CM,

Shush about any SD summer runs. Never happened, and if it did, long gone. DL and all.

Sg

Top
#978306 - 07/08/17 06:31 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5479
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Yeah, Salmo, long gone. But some folks were pretty happy for a while. And, truly, a unique way to successfully culture steelhead.

Top
#978309 - 07/09/17 08:26 AM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3265
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope



Interesting article I was reading started out below. Amazing how this has not changed.

Managing Salmon for
Ecosystem Needs in the
Pacific Northwest:
Limiting Science Input in
Ecosystem Management—Silos R Us
J. Hal Michael, Jr., Science Outreach Director, Sustainable Fisheries Foundation, 511 Flora Vista Road NE, Olympia, WA

The mindset permeating salmonid management in Washington,
and probably most other fisheries managed worldwide, can be
encapsulated in the last draft of a steelhead Oncorhynchus mykiss
management plan that was developed by the state of Washington
and treaty Indian tribes 26 years ago (Washington Department of
Fish and Wildlife [WDFW], unpublished data):
A purpose of fisheries management is to ensure achievement
of a desired level of catch. In order to maintain this
level, it is necessary to prevent the capture of a certain
portion of the run, so that these uncaught fish can spawn
and produce fish for future use. An escapement allowance
must be evaluated primarily according to whether it
achieves the catch objective.



Note that fish serve two purposes: catch and production of
catch. No other values or benefits are recognized.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#978312 - 07/09/17 11:48 AM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Smalma]
FishDoctor Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 524
Originally Posted By: Smalma
FishDoctor -
The thing that confuses me is if Puget Sound is toxic to steelhead why is that fish like sea-run cutthroat who smolt at the same size and time as the steelhead are doing relatively well through out Puget Sound?


Are the two living in the same water?

If folks are ever to understand what is happening with the steelhead somehow they will need to parse out how various factors are differently affecting other species that are doing better.

Curt


Curt,
Its a toxic mix of thousands of chemicals as you know. If indeed cutts are faring better then it would be of some hope that our wastes are not killing everything (yet). There are a lot of possible problems for steelhead in the sound and rivers also as this study outlines and discusses. PCB, Estrogen's and flame retardants are just the tip the iceburg IMO. Steelhead may be exposed to more"hot-spots" in the sound (and rivers) than cutts, or there may be many other reasons for a difference in survival. Bottom line: we need to keep our waters cleaner or face the fact that these fish are going away. The coastal waters are cleaner, and fish dont have the toxins like the sound does. There seems to be a good correlation of survival to adult with water quality IMO. >The closer to the city, the worse it is. Even the Nisqually fish are HOT with PCB's and other toxins.

http://marinesurvivalproject.com/wp-cont...port-FINAL.pdf.

source:
Puget Sound Steelhead Marine Survival: 2013-2015 research findings summary
Puget Sound Steelhead Marine Survival Workgroup December 31, 2015
_________________________
FishDoctor

Top
#978313 - 07/09/17 11:54 AM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5479
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
We do know that coho are significantly more susceptible to stream pollution than are chum. Cutthroat are also seemingly more resilient to poor conditions than other salmonids, at least the coastal. They seem to survive in streams and the sound better.

Too often we seem to believe that a fish is a fish is a fish and if something is bad for one it is bad for all,

Top
#978314 - 07/09/17 01:19 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
Evo Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 4235
the only thing that killed off the Chum on the upper Puyallup and Carbon systems, was asian demand for the eggs, and the greed of the tribes....

Top
#978316 - 07/09/17 02:44 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Carcassman]
ondarvr Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 1162
Loc: Spokane WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman


Too often we seem to believe that a fish is a fish is a fish and if something is bad for one it is bad for all,


I'm fairly confident nets are bad for all of them.
_________________________
"You may live ondarvr but that doesn't mean you owndarvr." - Fish Prince

Top
#978321 - 07/10/17 07:22 AM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: ondarvr]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5479
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
As with all things biological, the answer is yes and no. Back in the 80s, Skagit coho were chronically under escaped. So much so that there was no bay/river fishing for them by netters. It got complicated by the (then) fairly robust chum runs as the incidental catch was pretty high. So, WDF and the Tribes put in something like a 6" or 6.5" minimum mesh requirement on gill nets during the chum fishery.

Coho by catch essentially disappeared. When salmon management ended (WDF conservation control) on 11/30 a 5" minimum was put in place for steelhead harvest. Suddenly, all sorts of coho showed up.

While gill nets are not perfect they can be used in a size-selective manner and significantly reduce by catch if the two species are of reasonably different sizes.

Still, it would need to be enforced and users would need 3 or 4 nets for a year rather tan just one.

Top
#978324 - 07/10/17 01:17 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
Official Darkside Fucktard Whisperer

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 2515
You guys base all your junk science on the numbers provided by who?

WDFW?

WDFW.........
The same clowns that couldn't even count the number of fish in a net pen?
The same lame ducks that couldn't figure out where or how the fish disappeared?

Give me a break.

Your numbers are a joke.

Plant fish morons!!!

Top
#978334 - 07/11/17 09:12 AM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
Myassisdragon Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 1134
Loc: The Wet Side
Excusematology majors with minors in paralysis by analysis.
_________________________
Hmmm

- "Wild steelhead were more numerous this year than they were in the 1970s" ( ITYOOL - 2015 )

- "It's past the time to "play nice", after all, they are pooching us royally."

D'uh!

Top
#978337 - 07/11/17 11:34 AM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
Official Darkside Fucktard Whisperer

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 2515
For those that still cannot grasp the concept.............

PLANT FISH!!!!!!!!!!

Top
#978341 - 07/11/17 01:22 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Carcassman]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4561
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman

While gill nets are not perfect they can be used in a size-selective manner and significantly reduce by catch if the two species are of reasonably different sizes.

Still, it would need to be enforced and users would need 3 or 4 nets for a year rather tan just one.


Enforcement would be much easier if only 1 group was netting. I go to NOF meetings and listen as the "cowboys" complain about having 2 or 3 sizes of nets and then whether it is gill net or tangle nets, there is another choice...stop netting completely.....
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older would take longer"

Top
#978345 - 07/11/17 02:17 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 4851
Loc: Snohomish, WA
"OUR FISH ARE TURNING GAY!!!!" - Alexjonessupersteelheadvitalityinfowars.com
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

Top
#978347 - 07/11/17 02:28 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: DrifterWA]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5479
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I get tired of the excuse that it is too expensive for multiple nets, too expensive to enforce, too expensive to monitor, too expensive to manage in-season.

You either do the job, the whole job, or you don't. If the long term survival and productivity of our resources are important, then put the money into it. Do it right. If you don't have the money to do it right close it.

Top
#978354 - 07/11/17 05:22 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
RUNnGUN Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 914
Have a question? I have printed WDFW or State Game Dept. harvest reports back to 1983-84. The Steelhead plant numbers didn't start showing up on the reports until 1988-89. Anyone know where to find those plant numbers previous to 1988-89? The Green used to be hot for Summerun on the openers Memorial Day weekend and the change in June in the early 80's. I'm curious what kind of numbers it took to produce the catches then? Icy creek was on fire on the opener w/ a bunch stacked in there, w/ fish scattered all through the Gorge.
_________________________
"After fishing for Steelhead for over 40 years, Steelheading as I know it is gone in Puget Sound!"
ME

Top
#978355 - 07/11/17 05:29 PM Re: Steelhead plantings. [Re: Krijack]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5479
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The R4 office should have that. The Area Bio should have it. I thought the plant numbers were reported with the catch data earlier than the 80s. WDG used to have a rearing pond complex in the Upper Green. I forget the name. Icy and Crisp were WDF facilities for salmon. Icy had really nice water for growing fish.

Top
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
ottis82, rabbit, skitzo
Recent Gallery Pix
Gibbs Delta Time Capsule
Driftin'
Who's Online
5 registered (stonefish, Dan S., Terry Roth, 2 invisible), 326 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Rosa Walton, pollack, DontBeStupid, johnjorge, Clearwater Alaska
11435 Registered Users
Top Posters
Hankster 31822
Todd 25024
Sol Duc 15578
Dan S. 15200
elparquito 13541
Salmo g. 12530
eyeFISH 12425
stam 12394
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10978
Forum Stats
11435 Members
18 Forums
76853 Topics
895216 Posts

Max Online: 596 @ 05/24/12 03:35 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |