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#978788 - 08/01/17 01:01 PM Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim

Just rec'd the following:

https://nwtreatytribes.org/frank-sport-crabbing-needs-season-management/


Being Frank: Sport Crabbing Needs In-season Management

Being Frank is a monthly column written by the chair of the Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission. As a statement from the NWIFC chair, the column represents the interests and concerns of treaty Indian tribes throughout western Washington.

The same principles we use to manage many of our salmon fisheries should be used to regulate recreational harvest of Dungeness crab in Puget Sound.

During most chinook salmon fisheries, we develop in-season estimates using catch data gathered from anglers returning to the dock and from fish tickets issued to treaty tribal and non-Indian commercial fishermen when they sell their catch. This allows us to verify our pre-season forecasts, track catch numbers in-season, and decide whether to add or close fisheries to meet our harvest and conservation goals.

Crabbing in Puget Sound has nearly doubled since 1996, when state and tribal crabbers shared a harvest of about 6 million pounds. Because there is no monitoring of Dungeness crab populations in Puget Sound, we have no accurate estimate of how many there are. We think this lack of knowledge requires a more a more careful approach to managing the resource.

When treaty tribal and non-Indian commercial crabbers sell their catch, buyers document the amount of crab, location of harvest and other important data. This information is then shared between the tribal and state co-managers, often within 24 hours. It’s the kind of information needed for effective in-season management.

The same cannot be said of the recreational Dungeness crab fishery.

The daily bag limit for recreational harvesters in Puget Sound is five Dungeness crab, males only, with hard shells that have a minimum size of 6 ¼ inches. Recreational crabbers are supposed to keep track of their harvest on a catch record card that is mailed to WDFW or reported online after the season ends.

The problem is that these rules – implemented in 2007 – are being ignored by many recreational crabbers.

More than 200,000 catch record cards are issued each year, but only about half are returned as required by law. The penalty for not reporting catch is a mere $10 fee tacked onto their next license.

Some recreational crabbers are not recording their catch at all, exceeding catch limits and crabbing when the fishery is closed.

July 4 this year provided a good example. Recreational crab fisheries in Puget Sound have been closed on Tuesdays and Wednesdays for the past couple of years, but many assumed the fishery was open because of the holiday. According to news reports, WDFW enforcement officers in one area found crabbers in seven boats breaking regulations meant to protect the resource. Most said they were unaware crabbing was closed. Some also had harvested more than their limit, and retained female, soft-shell and undersized male crab.

How accurate can the data be when catches don’t have to be reported until the season is over, and the entire program is based on a self-reporting system?

Recreational crabbers harvest most of the non-Indian share, and we think the recreational harvest of Dungeness crab is seriously underestimated. We have asked WDFW to better assess sport crab harvest by conducting catch surveys when crabbers return to the dock. It’s been 10 years since the state last made such an effort.

Until there is a better understanding of Dungeness crab in Puget Sound, we encourage WDFW to increase monitoring, enforcement and education of recreational crabbers to improve compliance, protect the resource and err on the side of caution.

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#978789 - 08/01/17 02:19 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Piper
Unregistered


Perhaps we should require all crab be tagged like dear and elk. We could even have reporting stations at every local gas station and convenience store where biological samples and harvest records are entered into a log and returned to the WDFW to be processed in 5 or 6 years maybe never...

a 50$ tag is still cheaper than 5.99 per pound for 2 months out of the year... rolleyes

on a serious note, the shorter and shorter the seasons get the more concentrated the effort and the more likely there will be for people to poach because of the limited opportunity... when we had year round crabbing, there was never a thought to keep a barely legal or over limit because you could always come out tomorrow or next week, Now that we have only 40 something days, a person thinks about it every time they are out. fortunately, crabbing has been so bad recently that it is not an issue...




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#978790 - 08/01/17 02:40 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
"Until there is a better understanding of Dungeness crab in Puget Sound, we encourage WDFW to increase monitoring, enforcement and education of Tribes to improve compliance, protect the resource and err on the side of caution."

Fixed it for you. Turn about is fair play. There is a reason why there are no crab this year and it ain't the sporties. Just like with fish, until we remove the monetization of the crab resource, there will be less and less and less to go around. Last I check, it was against the law for me to sell any of my 5 crab. How about you Mr. Native Man?
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#978793 - 08/01/17 03:38 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
As I opined on the other thread the amount of money WDFW gets from the PS endorsement should be sufficient to yield meaningful annual stock assessments for each management area. Of course, the tribes should come up with their half of the cost....and the NT commercial fleet needs to pay their fair share or simply get off the water.

My perspective is that using a running five year average may be okay when the crab population and mix is stable but on a downturn of the cycle that methodology leads to overestimation of the harvestable poundage which means overestimation of the tribes "half" and the State's "half." Unfortunately, when tribal crabbers have first opportunity they fish toward that "half" even extending their seasons in an attempt to achieve that harvest number. The problem is that their "half" may well be more than half of the actual harvestable poundage meaning the State gets shorted.

Now, as to recreational crabber violations. Sure, on the water violations happen when 30% are new every year and, yes, there are also some intentional violators. That said, the State does have active enforcement on the water and does write up tickets which are adjudicated in a public manner.

Can that be said of the tribes? No! So, for the tribes I challenge you to open up your own proceedings before criticizing the State and its crabbers.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#978801 - 08/01/17 06:43 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 666
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
Natural for one side to question the other, and vice versa all over again, when an allocation is split 50/50. Kinda like looking to see who got the bigger ice cream, then complaining about it.

The issue is Puget Sound historically fed its residents. Now it tries to feed the world. Read: $$

And I don't think recreational crabbers are selling anything. UAG interpretation has changed with time. Historical UAG and Boldt (1970'2) interpretation of UAG is different than it is now, and capitalism is to blame.

Question: If Puget Sound crab stayed here, would there be a shortage?

So what if tribal and commercial record all their catch? Where does it go then? UAG should be consumed locally. It was never meant, nor did it ever, feed anyone out of state. Same with salmon, geoduck, you name it.

In season real-time management: Yes. $500/crab fines: sure. Real time data from co-management that starts on the same date: we'll get better data.



Edited by ned (08/01/17 07:15 PM)

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#978803 - 08/01/17 08:52 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5077
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...

$10.00 fee, tacked on to the next license fee is xhit money in todays world...make it $50.00 or better yet $100.00, sooner or later WDFW needs to get real.

I'd like to see the same done for salmon/steelhead punch cards....it is shocking percentage wise the small number of punch cards returned...
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#978804 - 08/01/17 09:37 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: ned]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: ned
Natural for one side to question the other, and vice versa all over again, when an allocation is split 50/50. Kinda like looking to see who got the bigger ice cream, then complaining about it.

The issue is Puget Sound historically fed its residents. Now it tries to feed the world. Read: $$

And I don't think recreational crabbers are selling anything. UAG interpretation has changed with time. Historical UAG and Boldt (1970'2) interpretation of UAG is different than it is now, and capitalism is to blame.

Question: If Puget Sound crab stayed here, would there be a shortage?

So what if tribal and commercial record all their catch? Where does it go then? UAG should be consumed locally. It was never meant, nor did it ever, feed anyone out of state. Same with salmon, geoduck, you name it.

In season real-time management: Yes. $500/crab fines: sure. Real time data from co-management that starts on the same date: we'll get better data.



During the proceedings leading up to the current P.S. crab mgmt policy the NT commercials objected to giving up any poundage to the recs saying that to do so would mean a shortage to WA residents. An astute member of the Commission directed the then Shellfish Manager to investigate where commercially caught crab was being marketed. No big surprise that a huge percentage was going out of State and out of country being shipped alive to Asian markets. So, your point is valid; commercially harvested crab is not in short supply IF you want to compete at the retail level with consumers in Chicago, NY or in a variety of Asian countries.

I should add that anyone crabbing on a rec license and selling their catch is an illegal commercial harvester (poacher).


Edited by Larry B (08/01/17 09:39 PM)
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#978805 - 08/01/17 09:41 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Here's the eyeDOC's fix....

Charge $25 for the tag imprinted with bar code that automatically takes $20 off the purchase of the next year's license when it is scanned upon surrender.

No cash changes hands for the surrender... just a simple swipe at the time of license purchase.

Simple, cheap, effective .... 10% compliance would jump to >90% among repeat license buyers
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#978809 - 08/02/17 06:37 AM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
One of recreational fisheries managers' biggest problems is that repeat buyers are not a very large component. Saw a paper a couple years ago and, if memory serves, it was something like 30% don't renew. Seems there is a base, which is probably where the harvest is, and lot of folks who try it and don't like it.

Plus, I think the majority of regular buyers are chronologically gifted and not being replaced.

That said, I think Doc's idea should be added for all of the mandatory report requirements. Big game tags, CRCs, crab, all of it.

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#978810 - 08/02/17 07:39 AM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
One of recreational fisheries managers' biggest problems is that repeat buyers are not a very large component. Saw a paper a couple years ago and, if memory serves, it was something like 30% don't renew. Seems there is a base, which is probably where the harvest is, and lot of folks who try it and don't like it.

Plus, I think the majority of regular buyers are chronologically gifted and not being replaced.

That said, I think Doc's idea should be added for all of the mandatory report requirements. Big game tags, CRCs, crab, all of it.


As I recall the return on summer cards has been about 52%. If one assumes that none of the cards from the 30% of non-renewing crabbers are returned then the potential drops to 70%. Subtract the actual 52% and you have the potential to increase CRC returns by 18% of the total. Note that far fewer winter cards are issued and the rate of return is much higher. The report on the 2016 season will be presented to the Commission this coming Saturday.

Some of the endorsement money was spent surveying those who did not return CRC info and most of those did not crab or caught no crab
which reinforces your perspective that regular crabbers catch the majority of crab and are far more prone to regularly return CRC info.

From a marketing standpoint the loss of 30% of one's customers every year means there needs to be the same number of new customers just to stay even and that comes with its own problems of new crabber ignorance as to regulations and how to crab without losing gear.



Edited by Larry B (08/02/17 07:42 AM)
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#978813 - 08/02/17 07:56 AM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
That was the point of the article on fishing license purchasers. Two big issues were the lack of people buying annually; it was not a large component, and the mass of one-time buyers.

WDFW has some built-in advantages with its license sales. Since a majority of the fisheries offered are best pursued in a boat or with specialized gear (crab pots, shrimp pots, pullers) and even a big tow vehicle so folks make a fairly significant investment. The license then is a small part of the cost. We get the "Oh, hell, I'll get a license as I have the boat".

But, they are going to have to make an effort to ensure that license holders get a return on investment or they'll invest elsewhere.

And, like Larry says, there needs to be an investment in education. A while ago WDFW had one staffer who particularly educated the immigrant communities in shellfish biology, regulation, laws, and such. The agency was making an effort to reach out. When he retired his files (including contacts) were "recycled".

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#978814 - 08/02/17 09:34 AM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Swifty27 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/21/13
Posts: 389
Loc: Tri-Cities, WA
Quote:
The sport catch record card is used to produce the annual sport harvest estimates for salmon, steelhead,
sturgeon, and halibut. Anglers holding in-sample cards are sent reminders to return their CRC’s. Harvest
summed from returned in-sample cards is expanded to account for the un-sampled cards (75%) and
unreturned cards. A bias adjustment factor is applied in some areas and species to account for successful
anglers returning cards at a higher rate than unsuccessful anglers. Creel survey data are substituted for
CRC data when available. The preliminary sport harvest estimates are sent to WDFW and Tribal biologists
statewide for review. After review comments are compiled and investigated, final sport harvest estimates are
prepared and distributed.
The methods used produce estimates of sport harvest, which have some level of uncertainty. This
uncertainty, or variance, is estimated and expressed with confidence levels, which are not provided in this
report. These variance estimates are available upon request.


Quote:
Cards Issued 638,352
In-sample cards 159,588
In-sample cards returned 59,369
Expansion Factor
(Cards Issued / In-sample Returns) 10.75
Non-reporting bias correction factors
Salmon - Marine Area 5 1.00
Salmon - Puget Sound Marine Areas 1.46
Salmon - Freshwater, Grays Harbor, Willapa Bay 1.20
Steelhead 0.98
Sturgeon 1.00


http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01886/wdfw01886.pdf

Still blows me away that they extrapolate data from 9.3% of the cards.

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#978815 - 08/02/17 11:15 AM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: Carcassman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
One of recreational fisheries managers' biggest problems is that repeat buyers are not a very large component. Saw a paper a couple years ago and, if memory serves, it was something like 30% don't renew. Seems there is a base, which is probably where the harvest is, and lot of folks who try it and don't like it.

Plus, I think the majority of regular buyers are chronologically gifted and not being replaced.

That said, I think Doc's idea should be added for all of the mandatory report requirements. Big game tags, CRCs, crab, all of it.


While the pool of repeat annual buyers may be shrinking, as a group they probably represent the bulk of the harvest. These are the guys that are fully invested in the game... they're going fishing regardless.... and odds are pretty good they're in a group of the better, more productive fisherfolks.

Reliably capturing their harvest patterns would be a very good thing for the agency.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#978817 - 08/02/17 11:25 AM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I am more concerned about the future of the agency. If the pool of regular buyers of licenses is aging and declining then the end result is not good.

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#978818 - 08/02/17 11:46 AM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Here is the link to the crab report on the Commission's agenda for Saturday:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2017/08/aug0417_18_summary.pdf.

And here is the summary:

The Puget Sound crab fishery policy (Policy C3609) was reviewed and revised by the Commission on October 1, 2010. The policy stipulates that a Department report summarizing the Puget Sound crab fishery will be given to the Commission on an annual basis. This briefing will summarize the performance and harvest of both commercial and recreational fisheries and regulation compliance by enforcement staff during the 2016 season. Puget Sound crab fishery landings have been robust in recent years with a peak in 2015 and slight decline in 2016. Recreational crab endorsement sales show an increasing trend with over 240,000 sold annually in 2016. New crab fishers compared to the total are declining and represented about 26% of the total crab endorsement sales in 2016. There is an intensive enforcement effort for this fishery. Catch record card violations and retention of undersized crab continue to be issues during enforcement contacts with recreational fishers. Commercial crab licenses have been limited entry since 1981 and the total number licenses is 249. Commercial crab harvest is limited to northern Puget Sound and 2016 ex-vessel crab value exceeds $11.7 million.


It is unfortunate that we are only days away from the mandatory annual report to the Commission yet the full slide show is not yet posted. So to respond to enforcement issues of concern as noted in the summary:

1. CRC Violations: First, it is important to remember that WDFW LEOs are on emphasis patrols specifically looking for violators meaning they are watching and targeting areas of known problems and/or suspicious behavior. It is NOT a random process. In addition to the LE contact data there is also data from creel surveys which is more of a random data set. Here are the comparable results as extracted from the report for the 2015 season (http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2016/04/apr0816_20_presentation.pdf) :

Year........Enforcement.......Creel Survey

2010.....................24%............................13%
2011.....................19%............................11%
2012.....................20%............................12%
2013.....................16%.............................9%
2014.....................17%............................. *
2015.....................17%..............................6%

* No data reported.

So, the LEOs' reported violations (failure to promptly record) is substantially higher than what is noted during creel sampling and that creel data also made a point of only 1% not having a CRC.

2. Retention of Undersized Crab: For 2015 the LEO data had 7% of contacts in violation. This is definitely an issue which can and should be improved upon. As I recall the creel survey folks collected some data on the actual size of undersized crab they encountered and found a significant percentage were above 6 inches. Point being that they were "short" by the dimensions of the points indicating improper measuring procedure (point to point). That is an educational issue and while it is well covered in the regs and tri-fold pamphlet and the educational packet distributed at sport/boat shows and seminars it remains an ongoing issue.

If you look at the data you will see that retention of female crab and being over the daily limit are very minor percentages in violation which in my mind supports that the undersized issue is more an educational problem than intentional. Also, a contact may be recorded as being in multiple violation; that is, over limit, undersized crab and retention of female crab as well as not promptly recording on the CRC.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#978819 - 08/02/17 12:03 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: eyeFISH]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
Reliably capturing their harvest patterns would be a very good thing for the agency.


Regarding Puget Sound crab I believe the average crab harvest per endorsement in 2015 was been between 4 and 5 crab.

Given that harvest data for successful crabbers provided via CRCs gives both a date and a number of retained crab I have suggested to WDFW (unsuccessfully to date) that those numbers be crunched to provide (by MA and dates) the number of successful crabbers and the average number of crab retained. To me that data could be graphed and yield a picture of how rapidly harvest rates drop off and correlate that to drop off in successful trips (since the CRC does not provide for recording unsuccessful trips).

Just a quick additional tidbit from the summary: 249 commercial P.S. crab licenses harvested crab with an ex vessel value of $11,700,000. That works out to just under $47K per license in gross revenue.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#978827 - 08/03/17 07:52 AM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
At some point I would hope that WDFW and the Tribes realize that resources need to be actively assessed and managed if we are to perpetuate not only the resources but the fisheries on them. That includes stock assessment, catch monitoring, and monitoring of spawning (not only numbers but success). There are too many pressures to continue auto-pilot management.

It will be expensive. But, as is often said "If you think knowledge is expensive you should try ignorance."

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#978870 - 08/05/17 06:47 AM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Jake Dogfish Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/24/00
Posts: 554
Loc: Des Moines
They made no mention of the audit they are making the state perform. http://www.theoutdoorline.com/podcasts/ July 1

I don't buy these concerns, certainly just as many issues on the tribal side. Lots of finger pointing but it's all about harvest.

For several years they made the area 13 season longer and 7 days so we could keep up with tribal harvest. Then suddenly they cut it back.
They know those crabs are gone now.

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#978876 - 08/05/17 01:11 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
The harvest problem in MA13 was that one tribe exceeded its agreed upon share by 3x and then 2x and then simply decided it was easier to not enter into any agreement. That is what led the State to the early openers and extended days/week; an attempt to allow recreational crabbers an opportunity before the crab were all gone. Well, the outcome of that pathetic situation is virtually no Dungies left in MA 13.

As for the podcast (Ron Garner) I suspect that the $100K is coming out of the Endorsement money. Three comments on that: (1) WDFW did a study in past years whereby they contacted folks who did not return their CRC data and were able to determine an adjustment factor and also that most who did not return the cards had not crabbed or did so only once and (2) I find it disingenuous that we would be spending more money on enforcement - after all, that is what it is - over and above WDFW's emphasis patrols and (3) recreational crabbers deserve an active, regularly meeting advisory group with oversight on endorsement money expenditures (as is done with PSRFE and CR endorsement monies) and to have agendas and minutes posted to the WDFW advisory group website (which has NEVER occurred): http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/advisory/.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#978878 - 08/05/17 03:04 PM Re: Tribal concerns over recreational crabbing [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
But if there was oversight, Larry, there would have to be public accountability for expenditures. And seasons. And pre-season planning.

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