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#982892 - 12/27/17 01:39 PM Is the Governor undermining the Commission?
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
In the Dec. 5th edition of the Northwest Treaty Tribes Magazine, Lorrain Loomis wrote in her editorial the following statement:

"Salmon co-management has become increasingly difficult as Indian and non-Indian fishermen must share a steadily shrinking resource. But increased involvement by the governor’s office has helped resolve differences, especially in the annual North of Falcon salmon season setting process."

This revelation has some potentially troubling indications. For one, although we agree the Governor SHOULD insure the North of Falcon process is open, fair and equitable, we don't think his role should involve resolving differences in the Salmon Setting Process! That role is the responsibility of the DFW Commission!

Second, by involvement of the Governor in mediating the North of Falcon, is he undermining the authority of the Commission? And in doing so, is he showing his motives to reduce the authority of the Commission and perhaps relegate them to an advisory role only, as some want?

Clearly, this information should, at a minimum send alarm bells through out the sport fishing community. We have only the Commission as our representative in the fishery management. Take that away, and the last vestige of Co-management is gone..as is our sport!

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#982894 - 12/27/17 02:17 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
I agree that the Governor's office has no business getting directly involved in salmon management, but there's nothing in the rules that says they can't do so, and in the end, everyone answers to the Governor, so he would be a good "friend" to have in any political discussion.

Something I'm not sure we're all aware of is that, as it stands, the commission has ZERO authority to affect policy. Their scope of influence is strictly advisory. At the end of the day, the WDFW Director is the decider. He's Governor-appointed, so you can assume whatever Unsworth decides is in line with what that office would have him decide. Perhaps Ms. Sharp went straight to the top when the heat got turned up on NOF last year. If so, that was smart, and apparently effective.

I feel like the commission has done the best it can to support us. Unfortunately, advice can't help us if WDFW chooses not to follow it.

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#982895 - 12/27/17 03:00 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
No, no no. By Initiative, the Commission is appointed by the Governor. The Commission appoints the Director. They set policy for WDFW.

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#982897 - 12/27/17 03:51 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
Looks to me like the Governor has left the center lane, and is now visibly playing his favorite...and that favorite is NOT the group that fuels the sport fishing industry, digs deep to bolster the General Fund with revenues from permits, licenses, enhancement fees and surcharges, waits for mitigation to run the course of decades without resolution, stands aside while "custom and subsistence" take precedence, visibly watches the 50/50 split principle violated again and again, and, last of all... is held to the principles of conservation and lawful regulation in nearly every regard. Blowing through the Commission and contributing influence to NOF was plain manipulation, and a bold example of prejudice. Time for some serious change...

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#982900 - 12/27/17 04:55 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Great Bender]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
When Wildlife and Fisheries were combined in the 90's I was really enthusiastic. Primarily I liked the hatchery potential for bettering our steelhead populations by doing river of origin stock because Fisheries had salmon hatcheries everywhere. We could improve the genetics and have a few fish to catch. It seemed to me that the only competing issues were fish management, and now they would be under one roof. Without writing a book about the mess we've been in for many years now, I'm going to stir the pot by saying I'm really disappointed with the lack of real leadership in the Commission. The Commission system theoretically should work. Why isn't it? Because it insulates bad work by WDFW staff from the government. What if WDFW went back to a system where the director was appointed to and directly accountable to the Governor? Then citizens concerns about actions at WDFW would go directly to the governor's office. Politics work. Look who the tribes deal with. Not the Commission. Good people are/have been on the Commission, but also a few idiots. Okay, now I'm ready for the nasty remarks about my just throwing out a thought. It's all politics and very little else. How can a couple dozen gillnetters be so successful, against half a million anglers?

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#982902 - 12/27/17 05:02 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The gill netters are better organized and speak with one voice. They want one thing. Sports folks don't play well with each other, much less non-sports.

Like you Tug, I supported the Commission idea as a way to remove politics from management. But, management, especially salmon, is all politics. WDFW did a very poor job of cultivating political allies. And, major gaffes like Bern's "budgeting" and the Commission's unwillingness to clean that swamp out.

I am afraid, though, that if the Gov gets real control over the agency that any hope of a conservation ethic of resource sharing will swirl down the porcelain goddess.

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#982925 - 12/28/17 09:47 AM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Bay wolf,

Perhaps you could ask the Governor's office to respond in regards to Ms. Loomis' quote. Is the Governor's office working at NOF on behalf of 100% of WA citizens, or just the 2% who are treaty Indians? A gently reminder that 98% of WA citizens are not treaty Indians but also have interests in the outcome of NOF couldn't hurt.

FleaFlickr02,

Read Carcassman's post. The Governor does not appoint nor supervise the WDFW Director. The Commission is THE policy setting entity for WDFW. I agree it would be beneficial having the Governor on one's side in most discussions. The Governor may need reminding that he represents more than the 2% of citizens who happen to be treaty Indians.

Tug 3,

I too was - and continue to be - supportive of the consolidation of WDF and WDG (WDW). That is the right structure in terms of science and administrative efficiency. The reason a few gillnetters (actually I think its a few fish processing companies, cuz they are the ones with the $$$) are so successful is because they don't talk to the Commission or the Director. They speak with one voice as Carcassman indicates and talk to the Legislators who make the laws (WAC) and approve the budget of WDFW.

I do think that to be truly successful for the greatest number of WA citizens, the Department needs an overhaul of legislative WACs followed by structural modification within the Department to steer it in the direction where the amount of work on varying subjects is proportional to where the money for that subject comes from. I.E., that means very little effort would be spent on commercial fishing activities unless the commercial fishing sector ponied up a huge increase in Department funding. The Department operations model needs to be one that stops biting the very hand that feeds it.

Sg

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#982927 - 12/28/17 10:05 AM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The thing is, though, that I don't think most WA citizens give a rat's *ss about salmon, fishing, etc. It's available in the stores.

I tend to think that the Governor represents the interests of the majority or WA citizens who want water, power, food, transportation, and such. Boldt II scares them to death; the State has to grow, has to develop, and if that means doing the Tribe's bidding. Mike Fraidenburg had a paper on this concept a couple decades ago.

The people who actually support WDFW financially want that money spent to provide fish to kill, game to kill, and places to do it. The folks who like non-consumptive uses are happy to have somebody else pay for it.

There does need to be a complete restructuring of WDFW and it should be done in public.

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#982934 - 12/28/17 10:54 AM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Salmo g. I completly agree that the Governor needs to respond to the comment made by Lorraine Loomis, as it gives the appearance of some collusion between the tribes and his office to the detriment of the people and the Commission. A letter from me will be promptly placed in the trash, as I'm sure all my other letters have been. Letters from hundreds of concerned citizens, not so easy to ignore. Further, it is so easy to email the Commission and ask them for an explanation of the Governors involvement. The problem is, there are masses who are taking it in the shorts, yet can't muster the courage to say anything about it? Historically, we recreational fishermen are not the most vocal or active in demanding our rights. Therefore, we often are led to the slaughter! There are tens of thousands of recreational fishermen in the Puget Sound Region alone...we got less then 20 responses to our cry to write your representatives and the Governor. That speaks volumes of why we are treated like we don't matter...because we ACT like we don't matter.

We should be screaming at the top of our lungs. Standing in the parking lots of every sporting good store and boat launch and educating guys about what is taking place in our fisheries. There should be hundreds of people showing up and speaking at the Commission meetings, thousands contacting the Governors office! WE, NOT HIM, OR THEY...WE!

I don't mean you personally Salmo, I know you are very active and have been active for many years, I just vent because I cannot understand why we see our fish, our sport and our rights being trampled on and yet, very few really want to get involved. It is frustrating...
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#982938 - 12/28/17 12:26 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Thanks for setting me straight on who appoints whom.

Perhaps I should have simply said the commission, for whatever reason, has not been effective, despite what appears to me as being willing to stick up for us. I suspect politics are to blame for that outcome at some point....

I recalled from involvement in North of Falcon that the Commission somehow delegates season-setting to the WDFW Director. I found it.

If you look at the 2017 NOF Policy, you'll see the Delegation of Authority at the bottom. You'll find that in all their policy docs, and I think it does a lot to explain why what we hear from the commission is so seldom reflected in the resulting rules.

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#982940 - 12/28/17 12:45 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Where the Commission fails is that they put no teeth in their direction. If they said "You will find a way to share the discussions with the public (unfiltered)" they would then need to remove the Director if that did not happens. To be effective, actions must have consequences.

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#982941 - 12/28/17 12:48 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
Thanks for setting me straight on who appoints whom.

Perhaps I should have simply said the commission, for whatever reason, has not been effective, despite what appears to me as being willing to stick up for us. I suspect politics are to blame for that outcome at some point....

I recalled from involvement in North of Falcon that the Commission somehow delegates season-setting to the WDFW Director. I found it.

If you look at the 2017 NOF Policy, you'll see the Delegation of Authority at the bottom. You'll find that in all their policy docs, and I think it does a lot to explain why what we hear from the commission is so seldom reflected in the resulting rules.


Correct, the "delegation" is an interesting twist. They delegate the "authority" to conduct the negotiations, but they do not delegate away the responsibility for oversight and supervision of the Department in those negotiations. There certainly are politics involved, but the bottom line is, we the public voted on and passed an initiative giving the Commission the authority over policy, and that seems to now be in danger from the Department and perhaps even the Governor. We must stand firmly and back the Commission, but we must also remind them they represent US, not the Department, nor the political whims of the Governor, and certainly not any special interest groups.
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#982942 - 12/28/17 12:49 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Carcassman]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Where the Commission fails is that they put no teeth in their direction. If they said "You will find a way to share the discussions with the public (unfiltered)" they would then need to remove the Director if that did not happens. To be effective, actions must have consequences.


You may very well see consequences my friend....
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#982943 - 12/28/17 12:50 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
That would be nice.

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#982947 - 12/28/17 03:19 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: Bay wolf
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
Thanks for setting me straight on who appoints whom.

Perhaps I should have simply said the commission, for whatever reason, has not been effective, despite what appears to me as being willing to stick up for us. I suspect politics are to blame for that outcome at some point....

I recalled from involvement in North of Falcon that the Commission somehow delegates season-setting to the WDFW Director. I found it.

If you look at the 2017 NOF Policy, you'll see the Delegation of Authority at the bottom. You'll find that in all their policy docs, and I think it does a lot to explain why what we hear from the commission is so seldom reflected in the resulting rules.


Correct, the "delegation" is an interesting twist. They delegate the "authority" to conduct the negotiations, but they do not delegate away the responsibility for oversight and supervision of the Department in those negotiations. There certainly are politics involved, but the bottom line is, we the public voted on and passed an initiative giving the Commission the authority over policy, and that seems to now be in danger from the Department and perhaps even the Governor. We must stand firmly and back the Commission, but we must also remind them they represent US, not the Department, nor the political whims of the Governor, and certainly not any special interest groups.


Ah, but they also are charged with being the voice of the other stakeholders. The commission members are a mix of sport fishing, commercial fishing, and wildlife advocates. I would argue that all the stakeholders in commission proceedings are special interest groups, seeing as 90% of the citizens are non-fishers/hunters.

I personally believe that delegation of authority was the commission's chosen method of making sure they would never be held accountable for unpopular outcomes from policy implementation. Indeed, NOBODY is held accountable for our opportunity, and that's why it keeps on shrinking.

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#982952 - 12/28/17 04:41 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
Bofus Offline
Eyed Egg

Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 6
My take on this, am a retired WDFW bio.

The only way that the public can be involved in the "discussions" is if the tribe allows it. Doesn't matter what the state wants, what the commission wants or what you want.

Tribes want government to government interactions. That's it. They represent their people and our representatives are supposed to represent ours.

You don't expect to sit in on government to government talks when it comes national diplomacy and other areas, so why should g to g natural resources be included?

I understand the frustration everyone feels about the process, but you need WDFW to represent you in the talks cause the tribes don't want to see you. Now as to how you can make WDFW represent your interests, that's the million $$$ question.

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#982953 - 12/28/17 05:07 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
FleaFlickr02,

I think you're shortchanging the WDFW Commission(ers). Delegation is the logical method to have WDFW policy implemented by the agency. The hired and paid Director and staff should perform the will of the Legislature as expressed in applicable WACs and execute policy expressed by the Commission. Commissioners are unpaid public servants. I have attended a lot of Commission meetings and met with a few out of session over the years. I've never met one who wasn't personally dedicated to public service and protecting the state's fish and wildlife resources. They also discover that the job is vastly more complicated than they envisioned before being appointed. Nonetheless, even after learning how difficult the tasks are, many accept appointment to a second and even third term.

As for accountability, it's there. Commercial fishing interests, who I above mentioned talk to the Legislature, where the real power is, instead of Commissioners and the Director, have influenced their like-minded State Senators to withhold confirmation of many of the Governor's appointees. More recently they influenced the Governor to remove Miranda Wecker, who was perhaps the most effective Commissioner ever in its history. They have tried several times to have other Commissioners removed or appointments prevented. I could only wish we might be so effective when it comes to holding them accountable.

Bofus,

Welcome, and thanks for expressing your opinion.

Sg

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#982962 - 12/28/17 08:04 PM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Bofus]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Not sure the public wants to actually participate in the negotiations; that is government to government. They want to hear what is going on. They want to know WHY sharing is not 50:50. What has been traded and why. Why do the tribes get to kill X of a listed stock but the recs can't kill X of that same stock. Close the Stilly to save 1 (one) wild fish?

I also believe that State Law requires that the meetings be open to the public. The Tribes are within their right to say no but that doesn't change state law. It does create a problem but WDFW has shown a consistent inability to comply with the laws about rule making. Their track record is not all that good.

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#982967 - 12/29/17 08:45 AM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Carcassman]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Carcassman,

You are right on!

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#982970 - 12/29/17 09:18 AM Re: Is the Governor undermining the Commission? [Re: Salmo g.]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
FleaFlickr02,

I think you're shortchanging the WDFW Commission(ers). Delegation is the logical method to have WDFW policy implemented by the agency. The hired and paid Director and staff should perform the will of the Legislature as expressed in applicable WACs and execute policy expressed by the Commission. Commissioners are unpaid public servants. I have attended a lot of Commission meetings and met with a few out of session over the years. I've never met one who wasn't personally dedicated to public service and protecting the state's fish and wildlife resources. They also discover that the job is vastly more complicated than they envisioned before being appointed. Nonetheless, even after learning how difficult the tasks are, many accept appointment to a second and even third term.

As for accountability, it's there. Commercial fishing interests, who I above mentioned talk to the Legislature, where the real power is, instead of Commissioners and the Director, have influenced their like-minded State Senators to withhold confirmation of many of the Governor's appointees. More recently they influenced the Governor to remove Miranda Wecker, who was perhaps the most effective Commissioner ever in its history. They have tried several times to have other Commissioners removed or appointments prevented. I could only wish we might be so effective when it comes to holding them accountable.

Bofus,

Welcome, and thanks for expressing your opinion.

Sg


I couldn't agree more with everything you just said. I have tremendous respect for the commissioners. I guess where I struggle with all this is that in one breath, everyone's reminding me that the commission "sets policy," then, in the next, aclnowledging that the decisions get made at a (much) higher pay grade, and largely out of our view. Anybody else see how that makes a guy wonder what anyone's intentions are in this mess?

I don't blame the commission. That said, I would really, really like to know whom I can blame (or cry to). It would be extra nice if that entity was someone who could ultimately influence outcomes.

When I talk about accountability, I'm not talking about whatever's written in a policy document somewhere to satisfy administrative requirements. I'm talking about the kind that names individuals and carries consequences. I don't want to see heads roll; I just want to see someone own up to the mess and tell us they're going to fix it. Discussing how they plan to fix it would get mega, super, bonus points.

How about a comparison? I bet if a commercial lobbyist doesn't garner enough political support for the cause, he/she soon ceases to be a commercial lobbyist. THAT is what real world acountability looks like. In this case, I would settle for a light, public shaming, to establish SOME incentive to stand up for our treaty and citizens' rights.

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