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#982592 - 12/16/17 07:30 AM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5796
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Back in the 70s, WDF put out some interesting reports about PS salmon. In one, the discussion was about how well management was doing. They pointed out, correctly, that in some rivers like the Green they were both not meeting the wild escapement goal and having extreme hatchery surpluses (unmarked at the time). The solution? Lower the wild goal and claim success that they could now hit the target.

When they set the Chinook goals, still mostly in use today, it was clearly stated that these goals did not use all the available habitat but that it was not rational to do so. And yet, ask any property owner how imoportant protecting that habitat is "for the fish".

We have met the enemy and he is us.-Pogo

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#982597 - 12/16/17 11:45 AM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
OceanSun Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1180
Loc: North Creek
"Wonder how long we have before Wa state has to start paying the tribes for lost
fish opportunity due to lost environment."

Where is the "in common with" in that statement?
_________________________
. . . and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and have dominion over the fish of the sea . . .

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#982598 - 12/16/17 12:01 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5796
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The Treaties granted a Right to fish. The non-Indians have a privilege. Plus, the argument can be made that we took our share of fish as development.

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#982599 - 12/16/17 01:39 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12797
Chasin' Baitman posted: " I had heard that the problem on the Stilly *IS* lack of habitat (perhaps due to rapid development and also the landslide?). Does anyone know any details on the habitat situation on the Stilly?"

All of the north PS watersheds suffer from the geomorphic condition called unstable steep slopes. Since all of the forestlands outside of national parks and designated wilderness areas have been logged, these unstable slopes have been and continue to dump huge quantities of eroded soil, and especially high concentrations of fines that smother incubating eggs and alevins that are incubating in the gravel of tributary streams and mainstem rivers. Both forks of the Stilly and the SF Nooksack have that in spades. As spawning habitat is degraded a higher % of a salmon population is necessary for escapement and reproduction. With Canadian interceptions and a few WA state harvests, the Stilly doesn't get enough spawners to maintain a population. The recruit per spawner output is consistently lower than 1.0. This means that without the supplementation from the Stilly Tribal hatchery, Stilly Chinook would go extinct, and likely already be extinct.

Given the slow rate of habitat recovery in the Stilly basin, I don't think there is any way a wild Chinook population can maintain itself going forward, let alone recover to a self sustaining level with a harvestable surplus.

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#982600 - 12/16/17 02:41 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5796
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Bingo Salmo!

On the hopeful side, we know that mass spawning cleans fines out of gravel. On some Fraser tribs, spawning sockeye account for way more than 50% of the total annual sediment movement.

Assuming we could at least maintain the level of sediment input (ideally reduce) if we totally stopped killing pink and chum they could be put to work cleaning the gravel. And providing nutrients for the ecosystem. But, it would be the fastest way to reduce the fines and increase egg-fry survival.

The downside is that the recent super-abundance of pinks depressed the Chinook. But, if that problem was in the ocean and due to lack of food there then maybe other actions could also be taken.

We are in the last few minutes of the 24hr survival clock but we can turn back the hands, I think.

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#982776 - 12/22/17 12:28 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
BARCHASER Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/22/12
Posts: 177
Loc: Bothell
According to Cliff Mass the "blob" is dead. The Blob was blamed for poor ocean conditions in 2015 and 16, particularly impacting Coho and to a lesser extent for Chinooks. If it turns out to be true and the death of the blob does result in large salmon runs, how is the WDFW going to explain the "massive" cutbacks in treaty waters sport salmon fishing?

http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2016/11/amazing-warmth-doesnt-end.html

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#982777 - 12/22/17 01:00 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5796
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The "Blob" affected smolts and immatures in the ocean. Had nothing to do with the escapement or freshwater conditions that affected the fish coming back next year.

The Blob was simply another kick in gut to a reeling resource. Now, if in 2013, 14, and 15 we had exceeded the escapement goals, had great freshwater rearing, then maybe the good ocean conditions would give us a bumper crop. But since we find ourselves most years starting near the bottom of barrel.........

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#983045 - 12/31/17 10:40 AM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: BARCHASER]
BARCHASER Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/22/12
Posts: 177
Loc: Bothell
A Board member asked if I could post the link I used to send an email to the DOI.

Here is the link I used. If the link doesn't work for you, then I think you can just copy the email address and send it with your email system.

https://www.doi.gov/contact-us


Originally Posted By: BARCHASER
I havent posted here in awhile. My personal opinion, trying to get anything done with the WDFW or in any other organ of Washington State government is hopeless.

Last Spring I did send an email to the Dept of the Interior at least stating my complaints. That probably wont do any good either, but at least it made me fill better. If you want to do the same, the DOI has a link that makes it easy to send them an email. At one point I hoped this Zinke guy might do something but now it looks like he just wants to wear cowboy hats and fart around with Trump stuff.

Nevertheless, I do know enuff about the federal government, that if they just get a few emails nothing happens but if the get hundreds of emails from real live taxpayers and voters, things can change. Hope for the best, here's the email I sent them last Spring.



Subject: Puget Sound salmon fisheries, Judge Bodlt decision and tribal relations

Feedback:
The relationship between sports fishers, the Tribes and the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) is hopelessly broken. The original treaty was a Federal Treaty and the Judge Boldt decision was made by a federal judge. The WDFW is stuck in the impossible position of negotiating with a sovereign nation, the Tribes. The State has no power over the Tribes. I don't know if you people are following this mess. Negotiations with the Tribes should be done by another sovereign nation, the Federal Government, specifically your Department. The federal government has not done its job.

The original Boldt decision envisioned a "fair share" between Tribal and non Tribal fishers. There is no "fair share" at present. Sports fishers are bean counted for every salmon we catch but there is no accounting over salmon the Tribes catch. Negotiations between the WDFW and the Tribes are done in secret.

Your Department should take over all negotiations with the Tribes and these negotiations have to be done in the open. Negotiations have to be done between two sovereign entities. You are not in compliance with the goals of the Boldt. Your Department is under new management and this is the time to fix this mess. If you cant fix it then just call a halt to all salmon fishing in treaty waters. We are all fed up.


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#983051 - 12/31/17 10:56 AM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12797
You aren't a billionaire who rapes public natural resources for personal profit; therefore Zinke doesn't give a sh!t about you and your piddly little fishing issue.

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#983061 - 12/31/17 12:49 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Online   sad
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1027
Loc: Graham, WA
OOOkkkk, Back on topic.

As the "The Plan" is being digested, the outrage grows. Check out the latest edition of the Reel News!

Also, there are several of the MAJOR players in the Sport fishing industry that are really concerned about how this is going to impact the trades and are starting to howl!

Fish Advisory Groups are roaring mad because they just got kicked in the nuts.

And the Commission was left standing with egg on their face and very publicly embarrassed DURING THEIR MEETING by a Director who seems to have lost all leadership ability! Talk about pissin off your BOSS!!

And this all came about in large part because the Senior Leadership at WDFW feels immune to any repercussions. Why? Because we have been letting them screw us over for so long, they figure we must like it!

Don't know about you, but I'm not bending over anymore. Someone is going to be held accountable and appropriate administrative action is going to be taken!
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#983091 - 01/01/18 12:29 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Salmo g.]
BARCHASER Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/22/12
Posts: 177
Loc: Bothell
Well of course.... trying to get the DOI and Zinke involved in the tribal issue is at best a 1000 to 1 shot. But we should all admit that trying to work with the WDFW and all the organs of Washington State government is completely hopeless. Its just stacking deck chairs on the Titanic.

The 1000 to 1 DOI shot is pretty much all there is left.

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#983129 - 01/02/18 05:37 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 202
Speaking of the Reel News, did you read the U of W Student Position papers that they published: http://www.thereelnews.com/fish-for-fun.html?

One of the issues covered was the NOF process and here is a bit of what they had to say:

"With respect to NOF, we must support the Co-managers in their efforts to balance opportunity and conservation needs. This means that recreational anglers must trust the State (WDFW) to represent them in negotiations with the Treaty Tribes and provide input on the options that are presented to them during the scheduled NOF public meetings. Much has been made about the fact that negotiations between the Co-managers are closed to the public and that in 2016-17, meetings between the State and the Treaty Tribes began earlier (without public input) in an effort to start to address key conservation concerns given the difficulties to reach an agreement in 2016. Efforts to “open Tribal negotiations” may be well intentioned, but are unlikely to be realized and convey a lack of trust in WDFW. There are 20 Treaty Tribes in Puget Sound, each a sovereign nation comparable to the U.S. Negotiations among nations are closed to the public out of respect for the viewpoints of the parties at the table and to encourage open (frank) dialogue. The Treaty Tribes and the U.S. (represented by the State [WDFW]) should enjoy the same respect. The Washington Open Public Meetings Act (OPMA) simply does not apply. In addition, negotiations supporting NOF are not just between the State and the Treaty Tribes, but also between each of the affected Treaty Tribes, each with their unique perspectives, needs, and geographical location relative to the salmon runs they can harvest. Furthermore, we encourage the Co-managers to meet early and often to address major issues so that WDFW can more confidently present/discuss options for the upcoming salmon seasons during the NOF public forums. There is no reason that representatives from the recreational fishing community cannot convey their desires to WDFW prior to the NOF public process. We believe this would be energy well spent."


Interesting...

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#983130 - 01/02/18 06:45 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5796
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It is my understanding that the Open Meetings rules and the rules WA has about the actual making of rules, apply to WDFW. They don't apply to the Tribes, which is the conundrum. In order to meet with the Tribes and develop the fishing regulations WDFW must violate state law. Comply wit the law and the Tribes won't play.

The Tribe's reticence to allow open meetings is not law but rather a "policy" choice. Regardless, there is this basic conflict.

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#983131 - 01/02/18 06:52 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: JustBecause]
Bay wolf Online   sad
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1027
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: JustBecause
There is no reason that representatives from the recreational fishing community cannot convey their desires to WDFW prior to the NOF public process. We believe this would be energy well spent."


Interesting...


There is a very simple reason that the recreational fishing community can't agree to just "trust" WDFW to represent us in Secret Meetings, THEY JUST PROVED THEY CAN'T BE TRUSTED...ASK THE COMMISSION!!!
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#983132 - 01/02/18 06:55 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: JustBecause]
Blktailhunter Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 475
Originally Posted By: JustBecause
Speaking of the Reel News, did you read the U of W Student Position papers that they published: http://www.thereelnews.com/fish-for-fun.html?

One of the issues covered was the NOF process and here is a bit of what they had to say:

"With respect to NOF, we must support the Co-managers in their efforts to balance opportunity and conservation needs. This means that recreational anglers must trust the State (WDFW) to represent them in negotiations with the Treaty Tribes and provide input on the options that are presented to them during the scheduled NOF public meetings. Much has been made about the fact that negotiations between the Co-managers are closed to the public and that in 2016-17, meetings between the State and the Treaty Tribes began earlier (without public input) in an effort to start to address key conservation concerns given the difficulties to reach an agreement in 2016. Efforts to “open Tribal negotiations” may be well intentioned, but are unlikely to be realized and convey a lack of trust in WDFW. There are 20 Treaty Tribes in Puget Sound, each a sovereign nation comparable to the U.S. Negotiations among nations are closed to the public out of respect for the viewpoints of the parties at the table and to encourage open (frank) dialogue. The Treaty Tribes and the U.S. (represented by the State [WDFW]) should enjoy the same respect. The Washington Open Public Meetings Act (OPMA) simply does not apply. In addition, negotiations supporting NOF are not just between the State and the Treaty Tribes, but also between each of the affected Treaty Tribes, each with their unique perspectives, needs, and geographical location relative to the salmon runs they can harvest. Furthermore, we encourage the Co-managers to meet early and often to address major issues so that WDFW can more confidently present/discuss options for the upcoming salmon seasons during the NOF public forums. There is no reason that representatives from the recreational fishing community cannot convey their desires to WDFW prior to the NOF public process. We believe this would be energy well spent."


Interesting...


Valdimir Lenin would have called those students Useful Idiots......

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#983133 - 01/02/18 06:57 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2976
College students are good for collecting data; not so much for advising policy. To do that right requires real life experience, which, through no fault of their own, they lack.

Like it or not, however, theirs is the viewpoint if the general public. The Tribes are virtually immune to smearing, as our culture of guilt has devolved to the point at which disagreement with what tribal spokespeople say is immediately dismissed as racist ignorance.

That's actually okay with me, because I want to focus on reducing commercial open ocean quotas so enough fish will return to support tribal and non-tribal fisheries (in other words, so that North of Falcon can work again). I have about the same chance of success, if not even less.

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#983134 - 01/02/18 07:22 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Carcassman]
Bay wolf Online   sad
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1027
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
It is my understanding that the Open Meetings rules and the rules WA has about the actual making of rules, apply to WDFW. They don't apply to the Tribes, which is the conundrum. In order to meet with the Tribes and develop the fishing regulations WDFW must violate state law. Comply wit the law and the Tribes won't play.

The Tribe's reticence to allow open meetings is not law but rather a "policy" choice. Regardless, there is this basic conflict.


Sort of. Actually, the Open Public Meetings Act covers the Commission meetings, since they are the governing body. When they delegate to the Department, things get a little fuzzy. The simple solution, if the Commission really believes in transparency, is for the Commission to move to turn their NOF policy to a WAC, and to write open meetings into the law! That way, there is no question they are in compliance with the spirit of the law. Remember, they aren't talking about National Security matters in these negotiations!


If the Tribes refuse to attend the NOF because they feel the meetings are better served through secret meetings, then they can justify it in mediation with the court.

We might have to forgo fishing until it is sorted out, however, if things continue like they are, with the public being systematically taken out of the picture, we are going to eventually lose all our fishing altogether.
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#983136 - 01/02/18 07:42 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5796
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
WDFW is covered by the Administrative Procedure Act, which outlines how regulations are to be developed. Regardless of how the law applies to the Commission, the Agency itself (each Program) Has to follow the APA.

There are lots of layers to the the making of rules and WDFW seems to have a systemic problem with complying with them. That said, the APA is not set up to deal with regulations as they apply to aural resources that vary annually.

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#983138 - 01/02/18 08:50 PM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Online   sad
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1027
Loc: Graham, WA
In the Administrative Procedure Act, you can find RCW 34.05.325
Public participation—Concise explanatory statement. Within that section there is this statement;

(4) The agency head, a member of the agency head, or a presiding officer designated by the agency head shall preside at the rule-making hearing. Rule-making hearings shall be open to the public. The agency shall cause a record to be made of the hearing by stenographic, mechanical, or electronic means. Regardless of whether the agency head has delegated rule-making authority, the presiding official shall prepare a memorandum for consideration by the agency head, summarizing the contents of the presentations made at the rule-making hearing, unless the agency head presided or was present at substantially all of the hearings. The summarizing memorandum is a public document and shall be made available to any person in accordance with chapter 42.56 RCW.


Edited by Bay wolf (01/02/18 08:51 PM)
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#983144 - 01/03/18 07:13 AM Re: Bend over Boys, We told you it was coming! [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5796
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Kinda says WDFW needs to be more transparent. With that there are also fixed timelines for the process.

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