Yeah, iit's boat wars on here. A 12' isn't that big. Yes, it's biger then a 9' andheavier then an outcast, but they are very easy to drag (and designed to TAKE th abuse of dragging).

Ryan, I think since Outcast has dropped their ratings over the yeas, is probably why you don't see the frames tweaked. I've personally have seen a half dozen tweak, an Ii've had my own Outcast 10 years ago creak and twist (but lluckily not snap/fold) on a class 4. I knnw alot of my budies up north in my old whitewatering club would use ther hardcore boats running the hard water. May be wy you dn't see any boats comme in. Most guys (even if it's nly abotu $1000) take thir investments and run them in anything over a class 3.

Ok, I'd say again, and reconfirm what Os said, that a 12' boat is the way to go. But if you want a smaler portable boat. Then here's thedeal. You wnt a boat you can stand up and fish from. Right?? Then rule out the Outcasts. Buy a 9' Steelheader from Skokum. It's a cataraft grade boat and you can STAND UP AND FISH!!!!! (DISCLAIMER) I run an Aire. And yes Outcast has Aire build their tubes. But Aire builds their tubes to OUTCASTS specs (including design and strenght of tube material). Doesn't make it sa quality, just makes it from same manufacturer (example, Chevy makesa chevette and it makes the K5 Blazer, but since they are both Chevys, does it make tem both the same design and built th same???) Sure, you could drive a chevete off the main road, an go running logging roads with it, but wouldn't you rather have a 4WD???

You have the money, have a custo boat built. You CAN"T stand up and fish from an Outcast. I do believe Wing has a 10' set of tubes, but seriously speaking, you'l love a 12' set of tubes. I've owned DB's, kayaks, ponton boats, catarafts, an have run many styles of pontoon boats, catarafts, B's, and Rafts. (Most of y cataraft/Raft running was almost exclusively whitewatering during the mid/late 80's). Heck, why buy an outcast?? You can run alot more water and outfit a Kayak to suit your needs. You can even run Clas 5's (I have in akayak on the upper Nisqualy). You've said what you want, and you'l be more suited to a cataraft. If all else fails, tallk with Osprey, and check out his 12' Wing. Then you'l see how "'big" his boat realy is. Now my 16' Aire, it' a monster. LOL