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#1007685 - 04/20/19 09:23 AM Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
IMPORTANT MEETING

The Cedar River Council will host an important meeting on Tuesday, April 23. at 7 p.m. at the Renton Red Lion Hotel and Conference Center (1 South Grady Way) about the very popular Lake Washington sockeye fisheries.

Historically, the Cedar River sockeye run was produced by natural spawning. A temporary Cedar River hatchery that began operation in 1991 and that was replaced by a permanent hatchery constructed by Seattle Public Utilities in 2011.

No Lake Washington recreational sockeye fisheries have been allowed since 2006 when more than 50,000 sockeye were taken by sport anglers over an eighteen day season. That year the number of sockeye surging through the Ballard Locks exceeded 400,000. The 2019 run is forecast at only 15,000, the lowest forecast ever.

The public meeting will include presentations by the Department of Fish and Wildlife and Seattle Public Utilities on the history of the Introduced sockeye run, fabulous periodic sport fishing from the early 1970s until 2006, and the likely reasons the run has collapsed.

The role of the sockeye hatchery will be covered as well as what might be done to restore the run to harvestable levels and the possibilities this could happen will be discussed.

Puget Sound Anglers and other organizations have worked hard over the years to secure recreational sockeye fisheries, and engaged as strong advocates for the permanent Cedar River sockeye hatchery.

The Coastal Conservation Association was instrumental in securing funding for a Lake Washington juvenile sockeye predation study that provided important scientific data.

The Cedar River is also a critical component in the Lake Washington eco-system for Chinook salmon. Here are two links to the Chinook recovery efforts.

https://your.kingcounty.gov/dnrp/library...resentation.pdf

https://your.kingcounty.gov/dnrp/library...resentation.pdf

The Cedar River Council needs to hear from the sport fishing community on a regular basis.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/services/envi...er-council.aspx

I hope that the sport fishing community around Lake Washington will be well represented at the meeting Tuesday evening.

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#1007736 - 04/21/19 01:21 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
This hatchery was a gigantic waste of money, and anyone who spent 5 minutes looking at how often it would result in a fishery should have known that. This has played out pretty much exactly as expected.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#1007741 - 04/21/19 04:02 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2432
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
Wasn't the Cedar River sockeye run created by a hatchery that failed and then the fish found a way to reproduce? This seems like a river that may really benefit from broodstock, if we can keep the poachers off it and the sea lions controlled.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#1007743 - 04/21/19 04:12 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The Cedar River sockeye were introduced from the Baker. Initially released into Issaquah Creek, they moved to the Cedar. With a few notable exceptions, sockeye are not successfully cultured in hatcheries because of IHNVirus. In fact, spawning channels (the original idea that eventually led to the current hatchery) would have failed because of IHNV.

Because of a variety of reasons, which include warming of the lake and Ship Canal, increasing demands on water, increasing diversity of of competing and predating fish (smelt, walleye, etc,) the likelihood of having any sort of successful sockeye population in the Lake WA system is rather tiny, at best.

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#1007749 - 04/21/19 07:46 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
I moved here the same year as the last Lake WA fishery. I got invited to go out, but passed from being too busy at work. I said "there's always next year".

Yeah...uh...no.

They need to kill the hatchery and route the funds over to Chinook production.

Or hey...crazy idea...use the money to offer a rebate on license fees! HAHAHAHAHA... rofl
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#1007750 - 04/21/19 08:22 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Chinook's not going to work well in that system, either. The Ship Canal is too warm during upstream migration; adults will die. The smolts will run into the walleye and smallmouth.

The money for the hatchery was part of state law passed in about 1990. The hatchery was for sockeye mitigation. Need to change the law to use the money elsewhere.

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#1007755 - 04/22/19 08:37 AM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
The Cedar River sockeye hatchery is funded by Seattle Public Utilities (Water) as mitigation for projects on the Cedar River. It was pushed by the Muckleshoot Tribe and I think PSA. Last I saw, the hatchery itself functions quite well. It is modeled after the successful programs on the Baker and those in Alaska. What the hatchery and Seattle Public Utilities have no control over is the Lake Washington ecosystem. Between a changing environment and more predators that are not favorable to sockeye, the hatchery may never have a chance to live up to public expectations.

The funds cannot be turned over to WDFW for alternate species or uses because Seattle does not fund WDFW.

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#1007772 - 04/23/19 06:17 AM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
cohobankie Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 194
Did the Cedar always carry sockeye? I know the river originally ran into the duwamish and was re-routed to Lake Washington. Maybe it never was intended to have sockeye.

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#1007773 - 04/23/19 06:45 AM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Prior to diversion from the Black/Duwamish to Lake WA the Cedar probably had sockeye of the riverine type. They rear in rivers rather than lakes are are rather widespread but generally rare. It may have had lake-rearing sockeye, as there are systems now where the fry move down one stream the up another to access the lake. Since there are no records of large catches of sockeye by the early settlers this scenario, while possible, is not likely.

Rivers are not "intended" to have one or another species of fish. They support what the ecosystem can support. Flows too low in summer? probably few coho and steelhead. Average spawning flow 10 cfs? Probably no real Chinook as they need more water.

The fact that the stocked sockeye invaded the Cedar and flourished is evidence enough that the system could support them. Then, we cleaned up the lake of sewage (food source), we introduced more species of predators and competitors, we constrained the river behind levees and rip-rap. We diverted the flow for domestic and municipal use. The lake warmed as the climate warmed.

The ecosystem is telling us, if we were willing to listen, that it can no longer support sockeye because of the changes that have occurred in the lake.

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#1007895 - 04/25/19 12:57 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Just a few points I took away from what was a very informational presentation:

1. The "experts" put the potential carrying capacity of Lake WA at 100MM sockeye fry.

2. The goal has been to produce and release 34MM fry from the hatchery.

3. To date the maximum production has been 20MM fry.

4. Failure to achieve production goal has been due to heavy spawner loss attributed primarily to heat stress during transit from salt to Lk WA. Average female produces 3,200 eggs.

5. 98% of fry are lost before they migrate to the salt; an estimated total of 72MM fry in 2012 did not generate sufficient returns to support a fishery.

6. That loss is significantly attributed to predation by both native and introduced species exacerbated by improved water clarity resulting from improved water treatment (less phosphorus).

It seemed that there has been some beginnings of discussions on how to reduce the spawner loss and the impact of predators but as with all things involving a bureaucracy overcoming the inertia is difficult and in this case there are several bureaucracies involved to include but not necessarily limited to the Council, City of Seattle, NOAA/NMFS and WDFW.

A question was raised about the potential of converting part or all of the hatchery to other species. Again, the Landsburg Mititigation Agreement and NOAA's Chinook ESA listing were noted as limiting factors as was the fact that the current configuration does not have the pollution control system that would be required for large biomass of Chinook being raised for a much longer period than sockeye.

So, does the collective "we" have the willingness to pursue improving the survival of returning adults and also that of pre-smolt fish in the lake? The message from the audience was to try and make it happen rather than simply throw in the towel.

The meeting's facilitator indicated that the three slide show presentations would be posted to their website (www.cedarrivercouncil.org) but as of this morning that had not happened.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1007901 - 04/25/19 01:59 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Could the lake be seeded to increase the food supply or would the negative effects offset any benefit?


Edited by Krijack (04/25/19 02:00 PM)

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#1007908 - 04/25/19 04:02 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Increasing the food supply would decrease water quality/clarity. A guy from WA DOE said that a canoeist who wanted clear water had as much right to that clear water as the wild sockeye run being restored (Redfish Lake) had to less clear water with food. Plus, more food for sockeye would just mean the predators got a better meal. Finally, the adults will still die when they return to the warm ship canal.

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#1007913 - 04/25/19 05:27 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: Krijack]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Krijack
Could the lake be seeded to increase the food supply or would the negative effects offset any benefit?


I will repeat from the information provided during the presentation - there is no lack of food for the sockeye up to a population of 100MM. The highest total number of fry in the lake was in 2012 and it was estimated at 72MM. Those are NOT my figures but I believe I am reiterating accurately what was presented.

It was postulated that the cleaning of the lake of untreated sewage reduced the growth of algae which in turn made for clearer water making it easier for sight predators to take sockeye.

While I am sure I disagree with the WA DOE's assertion as reported by CM as it might apply to Lake WA I am also sure no one will go on record advocating sewage into the lake. However, if northern pikeminnow are a significant predator then how might they and other predators be reduced in number keeping in mind that 98% of the fry never make it out of the lake? Maybe a bounty system like on the Columbia River?

As for spawner loss there needs to be some creative thinking applied; capture off Golden Gardens and move quickly into the lake for release? Apparently there was some discussion about piping cool water out of the deeper part of the lake but that was considered extremely expensive.

Anyway, just some thoughts for consideration rather than capitulating before trying to mitigate the several limiting factors.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1007925 - 04/25/19 07:15 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
One of the things about LW sockeye smolts is that they are, by far, among the largest sockeye smolts known. About twice as large as Fraser. One of the problems talked about when I was involved was that there was not sufficient food when the fry hit the lake. Those that made it through this pinch point found way more than enough to eat and grew very large.

The original clean-up of LW was pushed by, among others, Dr Edmondson of the UW. In his book about the lake he did make the suggestion that some sewage be re-introduced into the lake to increase food.

Pikeminnow may be predators but so are both basses and walleye.

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#1007959 - 04/26/19 12:13 AM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
One of the things about LW sockeye smolts is that they are, by far, among the largest sockeye smolts known. About twice as large as Fraser. One of the problems talked about when I was involved was that there was not sufficient food when the fry hit the lake. Those that made it through this pinch point found way more than enough to eat and grew very large.

The original clean-up of LW was pushed by, among others, Dr Edmondson of the UW. In his book about the lake he did make the suggestion that some sewage be re-introduced into the lake to increase food.

Pikeminnow may be predators but so are both basses and walleye.


Interesting about what was the food availability belief then versus what was presented. Hmmmm.

I did ask if the fry disperse equally throughout the lake and was told they do and do so rather rapidly. My reason for that question was if fry congregate in certain areas then predator control could be focused but apparently that is not the case.

Bass and walleye? Open all year, no bag or size limits, and no throw backs. Pikeminnow bounty?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1007961 - 04/26/19 06:40 AM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Larry -
Thanks for sharing all that information!

I have long believed that the sockeye bottleneck is likely at the food competition level for young fry as they leave the Cedar. The native longfin smelt and sticklebacks as well as the young of the year of most other species (think perch) in the lake use the same food resources as the sockeye.

Let's consider the longfin smelt which potentially could be the most competitive. In the late 1980s/early 1990s summer sampling found that the smelt were approximately 5 times more common than juvenile sockeye; likely much higher now. Have seen estimates that place smelt abundances in the millions. The vast majority(905? of the smelt spawn in the lower Cedar (from mid-Feb. to mid April). The fecundity of the smelt has been reported as between 16,000 and 20,000 eggs/female or more than 10 times that of the sockeye. The smelt depending on water temperatures typically hatch in 4 to 6 weeks. As a result there could be a lot of newly hatched smelt entering LW at the same location (mouth of Cedar) as the sockeye in the same time frame (maybe a little earlier) that are looking to consume the same zooplankton. The smelt fry being smaller could be consuming the zooplankton (at a smaller size) before they become available to the sockeye

Something to consider- I'm sure that you have notice that over the years the graphs of the sockeye returns have show a saw-tooth like line with a define even/odd year difference in abundances. Interestedly the smelt in both their abundance and spawn timing show even/odd differences. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation - smoking gun?

Prey/predator relationships can be tricky but it could be that if indeed the bottle neck is at least in part at the food competition level the current predator control (especially the pelagic ones) maybe counter productive. There are studies where limiting predators on plankton eaters results in increases in plankton eaters - no surprise there! In the simple model of just smelt and cutthroat could it be that removal of cutthroat are resulting in more smelt? More competition for the sockeye?

Curt

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#1007987 - 04/26/19 12:57 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: Smalma]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
There was also some discussion regarding later release of fry. If that initial entry into the lake is a significant adverse impact due to localized competition might larger fry enhance survivability?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1007991 - 04/26/19 02:11 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: bushbear]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Larry -

As I recall it was reported that in the initial discussion regarding the design of the new sockeye hatchery there was discussion for testing the release of delayed fry (September) to see if there were survival advantages (proposed by Sam Wright -retired fishery Chief of Department of Wildlife). The decision was proceed with the design of the current one.

Given the large size I would thing that delaying the releases with larger fry might buy additional survival. One would think that sort of approach would be worth testing.

Curt

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#1007994 - 04/26/19 03:33 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: Smalma]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Smalma
Larry -

As I recall it was reported that in the initial discussion regarding the design of the new sockeye hatchery there was discussion for testing the release of delayed fry (September) to see if there were survival advantages (proposed by Sam Wright -retired fishery Chief of Department of Wildlife). The decision was proceed with the design of the current one.

Given the large size I would thing that delaying the releases with larger fry might buy additional survival. One would think that sort of approach would be worth testing.

Curt


Okay, here is where I move from information as provided to a personal opinion. Danger. Danger!

As with so many of these types of groups they end up with enough agreements and other constraints as to make it almost impossible to be creative even though they invoke the concept of adaptive management. I hope that they can find a way to overcome their own bureaucracy before the whole endeavor collapses around them.

Oh, and a member of the PSRFE Advisory Group recently told me that the group had offered up possible funding for a pike minnow type bounty system. Apparently that fell on deaf ears. Did I mention Bureaucratic Inertia??
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1007997 - 04/26/19 04:29 PM Re: Cedar River Sockeye hatchery meeting April 23 [Re: Larry B]
CedarR Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1463
Loc: Olympia, WA
Had an opportunity to participate in a Northern Pike Minnow derby on the Columbia River once. With the potential of a prize at the end of the derby, the lowly pike minnow became Cinderella and every angler wanted a piece of her, figuratively. For a few hours the bite of a ten inch pike minnow seemed as exciting as the bite of a ten pound steelhead; as suspenseful as a chinook slapping at a mooched herring. The derby was lots of fun, and removed many pike minnows from the river. All the fish caught were counted/weighed, and then trucked to a processing plant where they became fish fertilizer. When the derby ended, pike minnows became Cinderella's ugly sisters again. A bunch of salmon/steelhead fry and smolts lived happily everafter...


until they hit the turbines in the lower river. THE END

I like the idea of a pike minnow bounty on Lake Washington. Derbies for these predators would probably draw considerable interest from anglers. They're good family fun and an opportunity to fish when other options are being curtailed. Are pike minnows as plentiful in Lake Sammamish, as they are in Lake Washington?

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