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#1032049 - 06/15/20 02:50 PM CORMORANT CONTROL
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1058
Was asked to spread the word. USFWS is proposing a rule change for managing cormorants. Read carefully how to make your comments so they get submitted correctly. I witness the carnage every spring on my home river.

https://www.federalregister.gov/document...sted-cormorants
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#1032064 - 06/15/20 04:17 PM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: RUNnGUN]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2856
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Thanks for posting that info. This proposed permit is absolutely something we should get behind both as individuals and as groups as it will provide much more latitude in controlling the numbers of double crested cormorants to the benefit of outbound smolt - both ESA and hatchery.

Comments need to be submitted by 20 July 2020 and can be accomplished electronically using that link. Upon opening the link there are several icons on the left side. The second one down (single comment cloud) is for submittal of comments while the third (double comment clouds) is for viewing comments already submitted. Those make for some interesting reading. beathead

Anyway, please at least read the summary and submit your (full support) comments. As a hint there is quite a bit of emphasis in that Federal Register posting on reducing conflict with ESA listed species.........
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Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1032083 - 06/16/20 06:57 AM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: RUNnGUN]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4674
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...

"We will not accept email or faxes."

Grrrrr, How stupid is that????
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"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older would take longer"

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#1032085 - 06/16/20 07:29 AM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: DrifterWA]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2856
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: DrifterWA

"We will not accept email or faxes."

Grrrrr, How stupid is that????


That was my first reaction but what I found makes it easy and comments are submitted directly into their electronic file. If you didn't see it open the link and on the left side there are several icon links vertically. The second down is a single comment "cloud." Click on that and you can easily enter your comment and when done receive a confirmation. The third one down with a double comment "cloud" allows you to read all electronic comments.

I encourage everyone to submit supporting comments.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1032091 - 06/16/20 08:56 AM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: RUNnGUN]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4674
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Larry:

Thanks, I'll make the adjustment......
_________________________

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older would take longer"

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#1032121 - 06/16/20 11:20 AM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: RUNnGUN]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1220
Loc: Tacoma
It has been 47 years since the endangered species act was implemented. In that time, many species have recovered to at or above normal carrying capacity. The continued existence of these species on the list are unnecessary and can be a burden on society. It is my belief that the removal of such species is more to do with job protection then it is actually protecting the species. I dealt with bald eagle habitat years ago. When reviewing the data I noted that the maps indicated full carrying capacity. The biologist agreed, but stated they did not have money to conduct any survey. Yet, I was spending hundreds of dollars to get my project rubber stamped. As of yet, 20 years later, they still have not done a survey and most of the restrictions and studies are still in place. I realized then that if the biologist in charge of that department did a survey, their jobs would become endangered. So, just carryon with no changes and everything is good. There is not way those in charge of the monitoring will every suggest any changes in status, as it would spell the doom of their job. Yet, the refusal to do so creates a situation that points to a failure on their part. So which is it, have restrictions, after 47 years made a difference, or have they not?

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#1032443 - 06/19/20 01:20 PM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: Krijack]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1530
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
Originally Posted By: Krijack
It has been 47 years since the endangered species act was implemented. In that time, many species have recovered to at or above normal carrying capacity. The continued existence of these species on the list are unnecessary and can be a burden on society. It is my belief that the removal of such species is more to do with job protection then it is actually protecting the species. I dealt with bald eagle habitat years ago. When reviewing the data I noted that the maps indicated full carrying capacity. The biologist agreed, but stated they did not have money to conduct any survey. Yet, I was spending hundreds of dollars to get my project rubber stamped. As of yet, 20 years later, they still have not done a survey and most of the restrictions and studies are still in place. I realized then that if the biologist in charge of that department did a survey, their jobs would become endangered. So, just carryon with no changes and everything is good. There is not way those in charge of the monitoring will every suggest any changes in status, as it would spell the doom of their job. Yet, the refusal to do so creates a situation that points to a failure on their part. So which is it, have restrictions, after 47 years made a difference, or have they not?


The Bald Eagle was delisted from the Endangered Species Act in 2007. That was 13 years ago.

It reached recovery levels many years earlier, and probably should have been de-listed long before 2007. Which seems to be your point.

However, the primary reason bald eagles were not delisted earlier is because there is no benefit to doing so. The primary conservation restrictions on bald eagles, including protection of nests and nest trees, is the Bald/Golden Eagle Protection Act, which pre-date the ESA. Those restrictions are even more stringent than the ESA. And those restrictions remain in place today, and are not going anywhere anytime soon.

So taking the bald eagle off the Endangered Species list achieved nothing except a public relations opportunity since the restrictions remain in place, thru a different law.

The reason it took so long to delist is that the Feds didn’t want to waste taxpayer dollars on a publicity stunt. But at some point in 2007, the administration (GWB, with Dirk Kempthorn as Secretary of the Interior) decided it needed to be done. So they did.
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#1032472 - 06/19/20 07:22 PM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: cohoangler]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2856
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...

[/quote]
The reason it took so long to delist is that the Feds didn’t want to waste taxpayer dollars on a publicity stunt. But at some point in 2007, the administration (GWB, with Dirk Kempthorn as Secretary of the Interior) decided it needed to be done. So they did.
[/quote]

I am pretty sure that the ESA mandates that a listed species which has achieved recovery goals must be de-listed. So the delisting of the recovered bald eagle was an action required by the Act rather than a publicity stunt.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1032709 - 06/22/20 10:52 AM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: Larry B]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1530
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
[/quote]
I am pretty sure that the ESA mandates that a listed species which has achieved recovery goals must be de-listed. So the delisting of the recovered bald eagle was an action required by the Act rather than a publicity stunt.[/quote]

Actually not. Delisting is expected but not legally mandated. There are several species that were left on the list for many years after they have achieved recovery, before they were taken off.

The reasons are many and varied. But as Krijack eluded to, the ESA requires a monitoring plan to be in-place before delisting can occur. If there is no plan or no funding for the plan, delisting does not occur. Or if it does, the delisting decision can be challenged in court, and would be overturned if the plan is not in place, and funded. This actually happened with Peregrine falcon. In the mid 1990's, the Feds tried to delist it without a monitoring plan. The decision was challenged in court. The Feds lost. So they went back and developed a national monitoring plan for Peregrines. Subsequently, the falcon was successfully delisted in 1999. Monitoring is still going on today.


Edited by cohoangler (06/22/20 10:53 AM)
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#1032723 - 06/22/20 12:24 PM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5855
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Delisting also requires that the cause of listing be corrected and prevented from future occurrence. An example would be something like wolves. If the states are not going to protect them at defined sustainable numbers (from the recovery plan) then delisting just starts the cycle all over.

Congress, of course, can override science and law.

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#1032756 - 06/22/20 08:03 PM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: cohoangler]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2856
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: cohoangler
[/quote]
I am pretty sure that the ESA mandates that a listed species which has achieved recovery goals must be de-listed. So the delisting of the recovered bald eagle was an action required by the Act rather than a publicity stunt.


Actually not. Delisting is expected but not legally mandated. There are several species that were left on the list for many years after they have achieved recovery, before they were taken off.

The reasons are many and varied. But as Krijack eluded to, the ESA requires a monitoring plan to be in-place before delisting can occur. If there is no plan or no funding for the plan, delisting does not occur. Or if it does, the delisting decision can be challenged in court, and would be overturned if the plan is not in place, and funded. This actually happened with Peregrine falcon. In the mid 1990's, the Feds tried to delist it without a monitoring plan. The decision was challenged in court. The Feds lost. So they went back and developed a national monitoring plan for Peregrines. Subsequently, the falcon was successfully delisted in 1999. Monitoring is still going on today. [/quote]

You are correct that there are additional requirements to include as CM also pointed out to include that States' management plans as part of the delisting need to meet criteria ensuring that the cycle does not repeat. My simplistic point was that if the listed species achieves recovery goals the species must be removed. The rationale I have read is that the ESA does not cover species which are no longer Threatened or Endangered. Also, to maintain those species means the restrictions enacted as part of the recovery continue to be enforced. The process to delist can be problematic especially with certain species such as grizzly or wolf.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1032774 - 06/23/20 08:03 AM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5855
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
ESA has nothing to do with Cormorants and little to do with Pinnipeds. They are covered by other laws.

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#1032795 - 06/23/20 10:35 AM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: RUNnGUN]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1530
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
Yes, I sorta hijacked this thread......... Sorry.
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MSB

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#1032829 - 06/23/20 04:50 PM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: cohoangler]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2856
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: cohoangler
Yes, I sorta hijacked this thread......... Sorry.



I sorta agree - but at the same time you pointed out how, again, it is so difficult to find a timely way to effect changes to emergent wildlife related issues.

Being very, very rhetorical but does anyone remember Hershel and his cousins at the Ballard Locks decimating Lake WA wild steelhead?

Just one example....
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1032850 - 06/23/20 10:17 PM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: RUNnGUN]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 6542
Loc: Snohomish, WA
I will admit up front, I haven't read much of this thread at all. Too many words.

All I see is "cormorant control" and I immediately think that yeah....no problem. Some good ol' boys and several boxes of shells is all you really need. Where do we sign up? Is there a waiting list? Will snacks and hot drinks be provided?

I say this tongue in cheek, but not really. Some shotguns during one part of the year and some clear spray lacquer during another part of the year and there won't be a Cormorant problem after about.....say...3 years. Killin' chit permanently ain't hard. Mankind has perfected the art of doing so over generations. It's the WILL and politics to do so that gets people all riled up.
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#1032882 - 06/24/20 10:56 AM Re: CORMORANT CONTROL [Re: RUNnGUN]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 3512
Just shoot them double-enders.

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