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#1060062 - 07/21/22 10:19 AM Regs
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6710
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Regularly see posting here on how big the reg pamphlet in WA is. AK puts out at least 4 (for separate parts of the state) and each seems about as big as here. Lots of specific detail in open-closed-gear-limits. They do put in a lot of maps to show things better.

Are anglers who fish AK smarter than down here and can understand complex regs? Just wondering.

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#1060064 - 07/21/22 12:03 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
Lifter99 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 206
Should we be surprised that Alaska does a better job up there than WDFW does down here? With our short salmon seasons down here anymore the pamphlet doesn;'t need to be too complicated. The things that we need to worry about more is and pay attention to are the WDFW emails that tell you the emergency closures that will shut the seasons down. I cringe every time I see a WDFW email in my inbox. Rarely good news.

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#1060065 - 07/21/22 01:16 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
GoPro Hero Offline
Smolt

Registered: 06/11/21
Posts: 78
The state needs to make the regs easier to read and understand! You need a dam lawyer to understand them. We should just have simple rules like no barbs for salmon and keep 2 fish anywhere you go. Theirs lots of fish everywhere! The tribes get to kill whatever they want that swims into there nets so we should get to keep the nates too!
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#1060074 - 07/22/22 11:34 AM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
steelhead59 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 152
Loc: Olympia, WA
I dont even have a copy of the current regulations, I just look at the emergency rule changes before I go fish somewhere. Before the printed regulations are three weeks old there is whole new regulations to follow most anywhere I fish. I tend to look on Fridays after 6:00 PM if you want to be current, after WDFW has gone home for the weekend. SAD

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#1060083 - 07/23/22 11:23 AM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13362
Confession: I almost never read the fishing regulations any more. I guess I've just sorta' given up. I just go fishing places that I've fished over the past 50 years or so and assume they are open when they used to be open. I know there's some risk because so many waters are closed during times they used to be open. But I fly fish with a single barbless fly and release any trout or steelhead I catch. I do keep some hatchery salmon and summer steelhead from waters that I am sure are open to retention. And I only drag a herring from my boat when there are lots of other boats doing the same, so I'm pretty sure it must be open when I do that.

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#1060084 - 07/23/22 02:01 PM Re: Regs [Re: GoPro Hero]
Tug 3 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 192
Loc: Tumwater
Re: Go pro,

The regs are complex by necessity. The salmon managers are good at the complex math that dominates their profession, but I agree that the regs are really poorly written in some instances. The use of the term "above" or "below" should be replaced with "upstream"or "downstream".
Confusion reigns on the Olympic Peninsula regulations whether some streams are open for steelhead. Famous steelhead streams are listed only open for "trout", but a call to Montesano staff assured me that these specific streams are open for steelhead, but only hatchery steelhead. The regulations need to be edited by the enforcement division prior to being adopted, in my opinion, for clarity and enforceability.

Regarding your comment about a two fish limit and barbless hooks everywhere.? Where have you been the last thirty years? There's a lot more to fishing than just harvest.

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#1060091 - 07/24/22 02:07 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2992
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
LOL. Wasn't it just a couple years ago that WDFW went through a Staff only process of rule simplification??

Five or six years ago I made some rule change recommendations and finally saw one of them implemented this year.

One of the others which died of neglect was tied to collection relic shells. Did you know that relic shells have to have come from organisms which died a natural death? Arguably, unless you can prove a shell resulted from a natural death retention of said shell is a violation. Here it is, see (5) below:

WAC 220-320-060

General provisions—Shellfish.
(1) It is unlawful to drive or operate any motor-propelled vehicle, land any airplane or ride or lead any horse on the razor clam beds of the state of Washington, as defined in WAC 220-320-030. A violation of this subsection shall be punished as an infraction.
(2) It is unlawful to possess soft-shelled crab for any commercial purpose.
(3) It is unlawful to possess in the field any crab or crab parts without also retaining the back shell (carapace) of each crab.
(4) It is unlawful to willfully damage crab or other shellfish. Any crab taken incidentally to a net fishery must be immediately returned to the water with the least possible damage to the crab.
(5) "Shellfish" includes all bodily parts but does not include five pounds or less of relic shells of classified shellfish or relic shells of unclassified freshwater and marine invertebrates. A relic (dead) shell is defined as one which died of natural causes and contains no meat or soft parts; it readily exhibits noticeable sediment, vegetation, algal or mineral stains, discolorations, soiling, weathering or other visual evidence on its interior surface which clearly and unambiguously shows the shell has not been cooked-out or freshly cleaned.


A simple change would have been to delete the language referring to having died of natural causes.

Is LE really going to police this? No. But why have it? Seems to fall into the "simplification" goal.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1060092 - 07/24/22 05:03 PM Re: Regs [Re: Tug 3]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4954
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: Tug 3
Re: Go pro,


The regulations need to be edited by the enforcement division prior to being adopted, in my opinion, for clarity and enforceability.





Tug 3.... What's stopping "the enforcement division", from attending, whether its in meetings or "zoom meetings", to know what regulations MIGHT need better clarity and enforceability. Heaven sakes, it not like its the 1960's, email, computers, can make sharing information, simple as a email address, then push "enter"

Oh just a quick comment on "catching fish/harvest", I purchase a license to fish BUT also to take fish home.......about the same way I purchase a driver license, so I can drive, not just to look at my car!!!!!!
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1060093 - 07/24/22 07:55 PM Re: Regs [Re: DrifterWA]
Tug 3 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 192
Loc: Tumwater
Drifter,

You have hit the nail right on the head! Excellent question: Why aren't the regs edited/reviewed by enforcement? Greg Haw, recently retired WDFW officer has written a book about hi experience as an officer and bad regulations, and it is selling. I retired in 1999, and back then, the departments were receptive of changes to regs - if they made sense to all that might apply. I had lots of them adopted at old Fisheries. The system worked back then. For instance there were lots of stream openings beginning on July 1st in some of the streams that had no salmon in them (yet). I got the managers to change those in order not to complicate the Wildlife fishing regulations.

Perhaps the lack of editing is just a symptom of bad management on a region by region basis. The fishing regulations from Region 5 and Region 6 doesn't always match in language but mean the same. I also think that there's often arrogance involved by the people who write the pamphlet. Look at the duplication of some of the intent of the reg, and also their absurdity. Who adopted some of these? Do you want to risk a citation by picking up a live sand dollar? Or your child being taken to juvenile hall by catching a few shore crab on Puget Sound?

The pamphlet states it's unlawful to snag fish, but that's not true.
You can snag smelt. The Deschutes in Tumwater has been open for years to salmon fishing, but has no salmon! Halibut season in area 13? Willapa has lots of crab pots in it right now, but the regs state it doesn't open until September. In talking with the current officers of WDFW they admit the fishing pamphlet is a mess. Why is that?

Haw gives the best examples by far in his book, especially his upcoming release of his third book "Confessions of a Rogue Game Warden". (Might not be the accurate title.) He endured years of having submitted suggestions to the regulations but was ignored. Very frustrating for a very dedicated professional.

But, I think most of the problem is arrogance by the regulators, plus lack of ability to write a cogent regulation.

The regulation pamphlet is a mess, and often does not apply to current dates-restrictions even though its only been out a few weeks. Editing by enforcement could improve the process and the pamphlet.

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#1060094 - 07/24/22 09:08 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4954
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
07/24/2022

Tug 3:

I knew you were LE, you did a good job of answering and not getting pissed by my comments.

I retired in 1997, lived and taught school in Region 6. I remember Dept of Game and WDF......IMO, the Agency has been in a downhill slide since the merge. WDFW had way to many WDF, salmon personnel running the agency. Steelhead management sucked for 25 years, that's part of the reason we are playing "catch up" on wild steelhead...... can't have tribes net steelhead in the amount of rivers and allow them to continue to net on Wild steelhead, and not see the returns have been in a serious decline over the past 25+ years.

Sports were also a problem but we went to release Wild steelhead, so tribes are the "bad guys".

Tug 3..enjoy your days in retirement.....
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1060113 - 07/25/22 01:40 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
Tug 3 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 192
Loc: Tumwater
Drifter,

I think you and I would agree on almost everything regarding steelhead and salmon management in our state. The merger has been a flop for steelhead and salmon. The new biologists are using TEN YEAR averages to reference success and failure! What about forty years ago? Fifty? I don't know if I'll ever get to fish the O.P. in the late winter again.

On the other hand, trout fishing in the local lakes in Thurston County is probably better than ever. But it's not the same as a drift trip on an Olympic Peninsula river. Nothing is. I've caught more than my fair share of steelhead, but is there ever enough?

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#1060115 - 07/25/22 02:06 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2992
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Just as a refresher WDFW not too long ago had an annual process of accepting suggestions for rule changes from the public. Then because of Staff shortages (and as likely simply not wanting to deal with the whole thing) Staff proposed going to a rotating three year process. As I recall it was Eastside, Westside and salt water. I seem to recall that they went through that cycle maybe once and then it simply disappeared. What followed was the one time Staff only process for simplification which I mentioned in an earlier post. Now? kneel
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1060119 - 07/26/22 09:17 AM Re: Regs [Re: Tug 3]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1217
Originally Posted By: Tug 3
Drifter,

I've caught more than my fair share of steelhead, but is there ever enough?


Being recently retired I've asked the same question. Seems the "been there done that" answer keeps coming up. I hope I haven't lost the desire I once had, but it's tough in the current climate of closures, poor returns and increased crowds.
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“Smart people only believe half of what they hear. Smarter people know which half to believe”

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#1060121 - 07/26/22 02:54 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6710
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
My attitude towards bag limits has been evolving. As a kid getting "the limit" was the goal. Now, I kill to eat. One or two ducks or geese is enough on any given day. Recently, on the Kenai I got limits (3) two days. As we were bringing these home I wanted to load the box. Last day knowing the box was already overflowing I killed one.

I will make an exception for deer. We eat lots of sausage and pepperoni and on. I'd gladly take two or three assuming I could find and hit that many. But I think that is the only resource I feel that way about.

Shoot, in some parts of AK the Ptarmigan limit is 50 per day and 100 in unprocessed possession. Know how long it would take to pluck them?

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#1060122 - 07/26/22 04:06 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
Tug 3 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 192
Loc: Tumwater
C-Man,

I've pretty much adapted to the catch and release ethic except for hatchery fish, and I don't regret releasing the "wild" ones. A day's float on an O.P. river is usually good enough for me with the chance of encountering a monster steelhead, and I've done that lots of times, but never enough. Eight or nine years ago I hooked what might have been a state record steelhead. Saw him jump, lost him in a brush tangle below the surface. Great memory. It's been a long time since I've been on the Kenai. I remember my first king there was bright and shiny and 35 pounds. "You don't want to keep a little one like that do you?" Turned him loose. Caught a bigger one later. Those were the days.

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#1060123 - 07/26/22 04:24 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6710
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I'm with you Tug. To go even further, it was more fun to C&R grayling than to load up on those sockeye. Don't get me wrong as it was a lot of fun. But if I had to choose one day on the water me and 1wt chase grayling. Or Inland Cutthroat. Or Redband. Or some nice sunfish (even Greens).

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#1060124 - 07/26/22 05:19 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
Lifter99 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 206
I would release wild steelhead years ago even when it was legal to kill them. I had enough fish to eat. Like Tug, i remember catching big wild steelhead, taking a quick photo (with out removing them from the water) and releasing them. I felt very good and what a thrill. Brought me back to the same fishing spots every year. Lots of great memories. I have a replica mount of the biggest steelhead I ever landed. I caught it in the same river and area where my dad took me as a young kid. After I released the fish I looked up at the sky and asked my dad (who had passed away 20 years earlier) if he saw that fish and I said "dad that fish is for you". I was way up in the woods all by myself . I will never forget that moment. Special.

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#1060130 - 07/27/22 06:09 PM Re: Regs [Re: Carcassman]
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2418
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
I agree with Tug, Carcassman, and Lifter! Last wild steelhead killed was in 1990.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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