I have no problems with guides fishing, or helping a client get their limits, as long as it's ok with the client.

I guess I don't understand the logic of preventing a guide from fishing. If they purchased a WA State Fishing License, then I don't see why they can't get a line wet at their clients approval. As long as the fish are punched, who really cares who caught them?

Seems rather silly to me.

For catch and release, no problem here with the "hook and hand-off", but on catch and kill, I think you need to get your own fish. The client is paying for the idea of fighting a fish, so if you will release them, fine. I just don't feel good about the kill part if you didn't do it yourself. Why not just go to the store?

I have regularly let my son reel in fish that were caught on either rod, but we release most (90%) of the trout we catch.
He has caught two sockeyes, what a long process that was. A four year old with the rod in the holder the whole time, but he got them in. We did keep them.

A similarity to this is the party fishing done on charter boats where the little old lady in the pink rainsuit catches everyone's second fish. I have also caught other people's fish on charters, 37 tuna in two days but I only kept 11, but I was paying right along side the others. There have been times when I have handed my rod off to another as well.

I would rather have the guide "guide" me, not hook my fish. Just my thoughts with no judgements made against others who choose to do otherwise.Andy

It certainly depends on the tactics the guides are using to catch fish. Having the extra rod does help produce fish obviously, but when freedrifting like the cowlitz, lewis, bigger rivers there are advantages of having the guide fishing rather than catching fish. When freedrifting you're as good as your guide because he is controlling everything. The presentation being the most important part. I know when I'm running the sled it helps to have a rod in my hand fishing because what my rod does everyone's rod does in the boat and if you couldn't actually "feel" what your baits are doing, your catch rate could drop a little. Feeling the angles, currents, speeds, all the factors to making the perfect drift everytime which results in fish to the boat.
But all in all, I'd leave it up to the client to choose whether or not he wanted the guide to fish. If the client is out to catch and release it doesn't really matter anyway. But for those that usually hire guides that just want to fight and land a fish I'd beleive they're happy to have the guide up the odds. Some people are just tough to teach, and when they pay the money they do it's easier to learn when you see what you are supposed to be doing..
Keith

i don't understand what the differance is between a boat limit in the salt and a guide handing off is pole, its still a limit no matter how you look at it, you paid the fee for a license to be limited to a number of fish, not every one is experanced in fishing that why some people hire guides. the state wants people to get interested in fishing to increase revenue but if they never get the chance to feel the thrill why would they support the sport, a guide is basically a sale rep for the state for those who have never fished befor

Great point doug, it all revolves around money!
Keith

I agree with STLHDR1, especially side drifting, the guides rod is important for feedback that everything is working right and it also helps give the client an immediate rod after a break off on a snag. It can be a big challenge to fish, retie, and run the boat on the guides part. You can also consider him fishing actually an instructional demonstration also.
Another type of fishing where it is important is trolling spinners like in Tillamook Bay. Generally the guides tries to keep clients weight droppers just off the bottom, but the guide is always dipping the rod and checking where bottom is. The current, boat speed and wind effect the spinner depth critically (that's the secret).
Personally , I enjoy the opportunity to tell the guide that I don't want his &%$*%in' fish!

The bottom line is having the correct amount
of harvested fish for the amount of legally
licensed fisher people.I have no problem with guides helping there clients to reach the correct harvest number for that boat for the day.Some clients need this help and others don't,it should be up to the client.Just like I have no problem with fishing all rods tell the limit for the boat
is obtained.Good luck,
STRIKE ZONE

P.S. If it's a native steelhead C-n-R guided
trip I wouldn't want the guide to hand his rod to me.

Most of the people on this board would probably find it insulting to be with a guide and have him hand off the rod to us. If and when I hire a guide (which is verrrryyy rare) I do it for instruction, just like you would pay for any other type of training and I would not want a handed off rod. As for the guides clients I think that they are there to take fish home so they don't mind taking a handed off rod. Bottom line, it's up to the client not the state. As long as the boat doesn't exceed the daily allowable limit, especially on rivers like the Cow that is 99.9% hatchery anyway, who cares??? My .02
Good luck and tight lines, Jeff

I should have stated earlier that you're paying your guide to be just that, a guide. Guiding includes safely operating the boat, and doing all the little things (as stlhdr1 pointed out) that makes your trip successfull. If the guide can do all of that *and* fish, so be it. Fine by me. If fishing impears their ability to get down the river safely, or to operate whatever boat (sled or drift boat)correctly, and for me to have not a good time, then no, I won't let them fish.

Fortunately, I can vouche for Bob. Yes, he can operate his boat and *still* fish at the same time!

I'll be the the first to say I'm not proud. If any of you hook a fish and want to hand the rod off to me, well all I can say is, cool! Fish on!

Yes, I have a problem. I am a fishing addict.


[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: parker ]

depending on what type of fishing your doing what constitutes handing off the rod, say two cliants in the boat with a guide, i'm going to use springer fishing with bait divers as an example poles are in the rod holders cliant one limits, you still can legally catch 4 more so cliant two basically has 2 rods he is fishing is it the prinicaple of the matter that technically one of the rods is the guides and if the fish is not hooked on the rod cliant two has been useing all day its not really cliants twos fish? i know it doesn't really feel the same when your assigned rod doesn't hook the fish ?

Yeah but when I take the wife and kid out and I'm pulling plugs or baitdivers they get to play any rod that goes off. So if we make if wrong for the guides what is the diffrence between them and me handing off rods. And I am always goin to let the wifie or my son play the fish its alot more rewarding seeing the smile on their faces.

Tight lines

Kevin

SRBC

Great responses guys!

Just a few more thought to kick around. The game laws say that it's illegal to "Harvest any part of another persons daily limit, except as provided for under the disability license.

The law also states that it's illegal to "Continue to fish for salmon after the daily limit or the adult portion of the daily limit has been retained" This law applies to each fresh water fishermen, not to the total boat catch. Remember, these are fresh water rules and may not apply to the ocean fisheries rules.


So if you got a boat full of your friends (4), and three of them have already caught their limits, do you think that the above law does not apply to you and you friends because you are fishing with a guide or fishing from a boat? And think about this one. The law states that you can only fish with only one rod, right? Then how can you legally take the rod from a guide when the law also states that you cannot "Fish with a rod not under your immediate control"! Since you can only be fishing with one rod, which must be under your immediate control, how does that work when you claim control of the "other rod"? The law does not allow you to pick and choose, you must control only one rod!

What's your opinion on this? Do you think that the courts would weigh in on you side or the game warden side?


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Thats whats disgusting about many steelhead guides especially on rivers like the cowlitz. Its all about limiting out.. That is a wrong mentality for a fisherman or a guide. If all you are in it for is the meat then go play golf and buy fish at the market.

I of course are more opinionated than most so brace yourselves.

It is wrong for guides to fish and the practice should be made illegal. A guides job is to teach people how to fish you can't teach someone how to do something by doing it for them... This is a horrible trend to see in guiding and points to them being extremely lazy and NOT doing their job. If I was on a trip and the guide wanted to fish without my saying so i'd be angry end the day and refuse to pay for the trip.
I'd also be upset if all the guide wanteed to do was pull plugs all day.
The purpose of taking a guided trip is to learn you don't learn anything if the guide does all the work. Like i said this is about guides being lazy which makes them very poor guides.. I find it thuroughly disgusting and should be illegal.

yes the law should apply and does, but many guides to not uphold that part of the law, i think (just my thoughts) the guides feel that because its not for them and they are providing a service to some one else they kinda of over look it and hope they don't get caught,

I have three boys 10,7 and 4. when we're fishing each boy feels the need to have his own rod out. I have catch records for each. but in reality I'm fishing all three.. in the eye's of the law am I wrong?

not saying i agree, but lets look at it form the other side i'm not a guide but can see some of where thy are coming from, ok you take a couple of cliants out fish for 5 or 6 hrs and don't catch a thing are you incline to pay full price for no fish,and then when you get home tell the wife no fish she tells her friends there husbands find out word gets out so and so fishes with a guide who can't catch fish what a waste of money, i'll never fish with that guy?

I remember back when you could fish two salmon rods (Seattle area). You still only got to bring in two fish.

Many states have rules allowing a second rod, so I don't see ethical problems with that. If you are in a relatively small boat, I don't see where any rod couldn't be considered under anyone's immediate control.

Think about when you're driving your boat, alone, running downriggers and how much time it takes to secure the boat's speed/course before you start fighting the fish. Is that immediate control? How about when you're bank fishing, plunking with a rod in a holder. You walk 20 feet to shoot the sh** with your neighbor and you get a fish on. Is that immediate control?

Interesting questions. Thanks for bringing them up, Cowlitz.

Andy

Ok, guys, here's the skinny. When you hire a guide you pay for a service. For somebody to say that "it is wrong for guides to fish and should be illegal"?????? C'mon, are you a guide? Nah, don't think so. Sorry, but it pisses me off to hear about people who think that all a guide is supposed to do is instruct the angler on the finer points of fishing. Not always the case, my friend.

Suppose you have a husband and wife from New York that are over in Seattle for a wedding and decide that they have a day to kill and would like to fish for the famed salmon and steelhead that Washington has to offer. So they see a flyer in a tackle shop for a guide service. They have no clue about catching fish and want some fish to take home. Well, how are these people supposed to be able to drift fish, flyfish, etc. let alone catch something with these methods. Sooooooo.....you yank a few plugs around, the rods bury, they grab 'em and woo hoo!!! FISH ON!!!! They're psyched from catching fish, enjoying the boat ride, the scenery and their nice bbqued hatchery steelhead. The forementioned couple didn't seem to mind pulling plugs all day.

Then you have the intermediate to advanced angeler. They specify to their guide that they don't want to pull plugs but want to free drift and learn some spoon techniques. Fine, row them around and let 'em fish their butts off. Tell them a few pointers and teach them what they wanted to learn from you.

You see that when guiding, you have clients of different skill levels with different preferences and expectations. I never repeat never fish with clients unless they ask me to or in a pinch when they want me to show 'em how it's done. I'll run three plug rods with two clients, since I do have a license and we all know that three plugs is more aggravating than two. When ok'd by the clients, I'll fish hard and hand off rods as requested. I don't ever punch fish for clients nor do I plan on doing so in the future. I'm not a sellout so why sell off my punches?

In summary, you pay guides for a service in which the guide does what the client wants. If they client wants meat so be it. If they want to learn, then I'll teach 'em. If they want to watch eagles then that's fine too. I hate guides that fish the same way all the time no matter who they have in the boat.

Keeping the clients happy is the key.

It depends, if the guide is handing off a rod that will lead to an increase take and bonk of hatchery salmon or steelhead "who cares!". I would have issues though if handing off the rod would mean an increase on take and bonk of wild fish.

Bobber Down

"Keep your hooks sharp!"

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you Robert Allen3. If Joe Schmuck from Des Moines, Iowa comes to town and hires a guide with two of his buddies for the day he is not out there to learn how to catch salmon/steelhead/sturgeon/whatever. He is out there to CATCH FISH, and probably KEEP FISH. He cannot catch chinook, steelhead, or sturgeon where he's from so that's why he's fishing.

A guide SHOULD ask his party if they mind if he fishes with them to up the chances of catching fish, and respect his clients answer.

Handing off the rod, be it from a guide to a customer or a private party handing off to a private party, has a lot of potential grey area. One can say that it should be assumed that when a rod is handed off from party A to party B that party B's original rod is now under the control of party A.

The guide should be the last person in the boat fishing, as when the customer limits out then his line is out of the water.

*EDIT* Damnit, if they didn't interrupt me with work around here I wouldn't have been one-upped by Sauk.

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: fobbman ]

As far as guiding goes, I'm with the Kid on this one. Many people hire guides for many different reasons. Some are the couple from New York, in town primarily for another reason entirely. Some are like some of you, that simply hire the guide so that they can learn the holes and techniques of a new river. Some people NEED the guide to set the hook for them, to keep from crackering off every fish that hits the plugs. Others are accomplished fisherman with no need for this. I personally have no problem with a guide setting the hook on a strike, and handing the rod off. I believe it was stated fairly recently on one of the BB's that the state considers the person that lands the fish as the person that tags it. Nothing matters beyond that if that is the case.

As far as a guide having a rod in the water...who cares. The guide is licensed, they can fish. We all know that more rods in the water = more chances to hook up. I can't believe some of you guys are so anal about how many fish the guide boat is gonna catch. Have some confidence in your ability and put the time in on the water that they do and you will catch just as many, if not more, fish than they will, because you're not babysitting four rods for the Bundy family from Wisconsin like they are.

Immediate control-- This is a joke, right? Any rod that is in a rod holder is not in anyone's direct control. Do you really think that Joe Guide told you 'that rod over there is yours' makes that rod in your immediate control? Whatever.....

Cowlitzfisherman-- Your example at the beginning of this thread does not compute. A guide shoots your 6-point bull for you and tells you congratulations is the same as him hooking a fish and handing the rod to you? Naaahh...don't think so. The guide drops the bull, game over(except for the gutting and packing, which for 4 grand, he BETTER do). The guide hooks the fish, SO WHAT. The game has just begun. Anyone here ever lost a fish during the fight??? Again, let me say that if you choose to hook and fight the fish by yourself, go for it. But, that isn't everyone's gig, and I personally don't see the harm in it.

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: backlash2 ]

i think a guide not only has his reputation to look after but in some cases his future the fish being hatchery are there for the taking you paid for them i paid for them it shouldn't matter how a limit is taken (meaning guides rod what have you)as long as every one is happy with the out come

Hello,

I'm parker, and I'm a fish-oholic!

I'm right behind the Kid on this one. People pay a fee for a service, whether that service is instructing them on how/where/when to find fish, or simply getting them a fish to show their friends in NY City (get a rope! :D), that's really up to the client. Let them hash it out with the guide, rather than have the state dictate what the guides' can do. I'm for boat limits, too, rather than individual limits.

That being said, I don't think I'd take a rod handed to me by a guide. That's just not what I'm looking for in a guided trip. I would however like the chance to watch the guide fish, you can learn LOTS by keeping your eyes open and your mouth shut.

Blacklask 2

The point is; does anybody have the right to harvest or attempt to harvest fish or game for another person? If so, what game law allows it? All the laws that I read say NO!
The answers will benefit all of us down the road!


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I'll have to a agree with Kid on this one too. The purpose of the guide is to try and make the trip enjoyable for the client. Period. All else is just semantics. I know that when my fishin' pard and I pull plugs we just take turns, doesn't really matter whose rod its on. Works well for us.

I don't think the "hook & hand off" should be legal.

If I am an intermediate to advanced angler (and the bite is on) and I don't catch fish than the guide is not doing his job.

If the guide wants to fish for himself that is fine, but is he truly helping the client?

I am paying for a service, not for a free trip for the guide. If the guide puts me on fish, can navigate the river and fish (for himself) then all the better.

But if everyone is catching fish (my guide included) but me, then I want more "Personal Attention". Show me the Kwan!

I fish with guides on occasion. Usually this is with and for clients. The pluses are: I get to go fishing, I don't have to tow a boat, I don't have to clean up, and my company pays for the trip. These clients really want to catch a fish and the guides do a good job and if the guide hooks up, there is a client that is more than happy to take the rod. I believe they rarely remembers who actually had the hookup a few days later.
But what I keep thinkin' about is my father in his late '70's who comes into town and I need to get him a fish and I get a guide for a day. I seen them work for 9 hours straight to get him a fish and finally succeed on a 25 lb chinook.
When I call him to say hi he tells me he was just lookin' at the 8x10 on the wall dreaming about the fight. He probably doesn't even remember the guide passin' the rod.
It's worth it!

The Kenai River in Alaska does not allow the guide to fish and I think it's a good rule. I didn't get a king there and the experience didn't leave me longing to fish a guide rod too. I believe the rules should be more strict about guide fishing when protecting wild runs is important. Hatchery fish predominant....free for all.

So now we have open limits on all boats instead of having to put your rod down and waiting for your buddy's to catch fish now we fish on untill the boat is limited!!! so if I'm guiding and sharing the boat fish I love to share fish and I have guided it is all about the fun who cares the people that don't catch will someday and I hope they have the same additude!! PEACE.

Cowlitz. The game law states that you cannot harvest another persons daily limit for them. The key word hear would be harvest. I did not see this word defined in the game law but suspect you could get into some real hair splitting with this one. Personally I think that if the rod is handed off with in the same boat and that person then fights and lands the fish they harvest the fish not the person who handed off the rod. With the amount of guides that fish this way, it must be ok under the game laws or the warden would be one busy dude on the cowlitz.

I agree with the others about it being the clients choice as to whether or not they will take the handed off rod and personally don't see much difference between this and a client reeling in a fish that hit a plug pulled through a sweet slot by a guide while the client scarfs down pastries and sips on coffee.

peace out

This is a great thread.
Several important points are clear so far.
1.) We aren't real clear on how the law is meant to be applied.
2.) The majority of the opinions expressed are by those who welcome guides on the rivers, or are guides themselves.
3.) I have a lot of friends who guide, so I hope you will accept this opinion thoughtfully, as I wish to offend no one.
I personally believe that until a fish is caught, it belongs to the public equally. We paid for the hatchery fish with license fees and gear taxes, but they do not belong to us until we tag them. That means it belongs to the PETA pus-pockets and the client and the guide and everybody else, especially those who are not yet born, in equal measure. Because of this public ownership, any person who would profit from these fish(In this instance I mean guides of course), must do so with public permission in the manner the public is willing to allow.
Most guides are fine examples of how to behave, but many are not. If the purpose of the guide is percieved as simply to reduce public property to privately owned meat, by making a limited boat the main goal,and bending a few rules to accomplish this, the public will respond to this in ways none of us look forward to.

I take a lot of people fishing and I have reached the point that I would rather teach a person how to catch fish than catch one myself. I guess I am guiding for free, so the only difference between what I do and what the guides do involves the exchange of money. Guides work their **** off for what they earn, which ain't much, so I can't attack them at that angle. Even so, a valid argument could be made that boiled down, the guides are selling the publics' fish. I know the guides are selling the experience, and once again the guides are earning their money, but without the fish, there wouldn't be any clients, so a substantial portion of the client fee pays for the fish.I would probably be a guide myself if the necessary prices would not exclude the people I most would like teach to fish, or help catch a fish. By this I mean children, or that poor guy at work who can't afford a boat of his own, or the old pensioner down the street, who has never hooked a steelhead. I have confused myself again, so I better find a point and get to it.

When a guide jackrabbits me or corks me or impinges on my fishing, it will have an effect on how I vote. Or the letters to the ODFW I write, etc. I am still pro-guide because of the character of the great majority of the guides I know.

When I am trolling or guiding a bunch of kids, we take turns reeling in the fish, regardless of the pole. Just as we take turns with the net, or running the motor, or rowing the boats. So I have no moral high ground, although I usually avoid limits in a variety of ways, not the least of which is occasional ineptitude.

Hey Kid, I want to hire you as a guide. Tow that black Thor on down here and back it into my driveway. What does this client want? I want you to paint my house . (sorry, old joke) ...

I haven't read the exact Washington laws on this matter, but it has been an issue in recent years in Oregon. The ODFW decided to legally allow fishing guides to hand off a fish they hook to a client if it's done right away and the client proceeds to play the fish. Any person in the guide's boat that limits out his tag (usually 2 adult steelhead &/or salmon) then has to put their rod down and cannot continue to fish, or play another person's hooked fish. I have no problems with these newer rules, partly because Oregon native steelhead have to be properly released unharmed anyway - as do native salmon in areas where that's needed. I do have a problem with 5 rods continued to be fished when one or more of the 5 people (4 clients plus guide in a sled) has limited their tag. (2 clients plus a guide in driftboats).

RT

James and I personally had a experience with the game warden this season. For those who don't know the meathole on the lewis closed to boats May 1st-early june. During that time period we fished the meathole with bobber and eggs. There were several days we'd go up and there would be 10-15 plunkers in the bottom end not doing anything. So bobber fishing being such a success we started handing fish off on the shore. We were handing off 10-15 fish a day until MR WARDEN came along one day and watched. He gave us a warning stating that in the game laws you cannot hook and pass off fish to another to fill his limit. I got into the arguement with the officer about the guides and how they do it everyday, and he stated that was illegal also. So he warned us and moved on.. He did state that if you get a bite hand the rod off "before" setting the hook then you are ok. Pretty stupid if you ask me!
Keith

Cowlitzfisherman-- I was not trying to diss on you at all, I just see a flaw in your example. IMHO the example you gave is apples and oranges.

As far as handing rods off goes....I still don't understand the big deal. I personally don't care whether it is in a guide boat, on my boat, or standing along the bank somewhere. If I am hooking fish every 20 minutes, and some guy next to me hasn't touched a fish in 4 hours, why shouldn't I hand the rod off?? Most of you guys are saying that it shouldn't be about limiting everyone out, it's about the experience of being out there. Well, I've already hooked lots of fish, why not pass the rod to the guy next to me, and let him enjoy it. The guy obviously is dying to catch a fish, otherwise he wouldn't still be there flogging the water while other people around him have been catching fish. Hand him the rod, let him fight the fish. If he lands it, great. If it's hatchery, he bonks it. THAT IS WHAT HATCHERY FISH ARE FOR!! If it's wild, it goes back. Absolutely no difference between him landing it and me landing it.
And if a guide does the same thing, good. That is what he is there for, to provide the service of getting people into fighting fish.
And I do agree with RT here, when someone in the boat is tagged out, there rod goes in the tray. I don't understand the state's contradictory attitude between rivers and the ocean. When a tagged is filled, the rod should no longer fish, plain and simple.

Is it just an ego boost we are looking for here, fellas??? If a guy doesn't have catching fish down to the art that you do, he shouldn't be able to fight or land fish that he gets an assist on hooking? I guarantee I get pleasure out of helping someone else out, and I also guarantee they appreciate it. So, everybody has a good time. Isn't THAT what we are out there for??

So Kid when your guiding parker down the river does he let you hand the rod off to him???? :p

Tight liness

Kevin

SRBC

The kid took a handed off fish on an outing on the lewis on tuesday with me. haha
Keith

Don't even get me started Kevin. Although The Kid is a licensed guide, it will be a cold day in Hell when I actually pay him to go fishing! He should be paying me!

It's other way around. I'm handing the plug rod off to the Kid *all* the time. He uses those stupid right-hand retrieve reels - I refuse to fight a fish with them. Of course, he never let's me bring my own plug rod, so I can't use my own equipment. So, when a fish whaps my rod, I just set the hook, and hand the rod off behind me. More often then not, he just loses it quickly, so we're back on the water in short order!

PS. Don't let Justin sit in the front seat. He giggles like a kid in a candy store and has no frickin' clue what to do up there.

"Justin! Justin! Fish on! Fish on! Grab the rod! No, YOUR rod!"

Parker - Getting Better On The Sticks

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: parker ]

Really good opinions guys!

I was doing a little more research under the RCW's , trying to see if I could come up with any answers to some of the opinions that you guys have given concerning "fishing for someone else" or handing your rod off after hooking a fish. I did fine something that got my attention, and it probably relates to what Stlhdr1 had posted earlier. You can say what you want, but I think that this law speaks for itself!

RCW 77.15.380
Unlawful recreational fishing in the second degree -- Penalty.

(1) A person is guilty of unlawful recreational fishing in the second degree
if the person fishes for, takes, possesses, or harvests fish or shellfish
and:

The key words that I see is; "fishes for" ! What's your take on this law?


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

In this RCW the words "fishes for" relates to the "act of fishing," not necessarily fishing for another. There is another part to the violation, though. This law specifically pertains to either fishing without a license, or with a license but overlimit (less than 2x) either bag or possession, closed area, closed time, or prohibited method, etc. It would appear that the prohibited method is where we should look at.

The RCWs seem a bit ambiguous, (sorry for the 4 syllable word ), on the issue of which rod is which. The rules state "no more than one line" but they don't say that you have to clearly label each rod, like a crab pot.

It seems that taking turns on the bank of rods would be okay provided nobody has limited out, there is one rod per person, and everybody has a license. The opinion that I got from three different fish cops is this.

All said that if they "SAW" you set one rod, say back bouncing, but then reeled in another, they would consider you to be using two rods, even though there may be two or more people fishing. Two said they would probably use a great deal of discretion if you were setting your kid's line, but one was a hardnosed SOB and said he would carve a ticket anyway. It comes down to a legal phrase called "misdemeanor presence." That means that a law enforcement officer needs to see you commit the misdemeanor for them to ticket you. If you set all three rods up for your clients, and one for yourself, and then afterwards come around the bend where there is an officer, he didn't see you "fish" all the rods, so he can't ticket you. These are the opinions of three WDFW officers, not mine. You might want to take it to court if you do get tagged. That way the ambiguity (sorry, 5 syllables :)) would be cleared up as a matter of case law. Any takers??

They all said the "hand off" is a no-no and would be ticketed if seen.

Andy

Thanks Andy for doing your homework! Your posting should roll a lot of eyes. I think that this subject has informed a lot of us about the law when it comes to fishing and handing off a rod.

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Not a problem, Bob. Took a few law classes, have friends and family in law enforcement, and I now "read up" on subjects before I post. Take care, and please don't shoot the messenger, I'll shoot back! Andy

andy m this is not directed at you, since when did the games become judge and basically jury, the law is the law what right do the have to say you can set a rod for your kids but not for some one else, i mean like mentioned befor, what if some one from out state or in state for that matter but doesn't know what end of the pole is up.even though there not a kid why can't some one set there rod i don't believe the laws were made (in this case) on age or ability. can't hve it both ways

I mentioned something to my father about this subject (hand off). He said his good friend was up below bonneville this year with his wife and kids. He said he had banked a couple of fish then a officer watched him set the hook, hand the fish to his wife, and she landed it. The officer wrote him a ticket for handing off the rod. I think it's a bunch of crap. When I take my girlfriend out freedrifting, any fish I hook I hand off to her because I want to see her land them all, watching the excitement, seeing her run around the boat like a chicken with it's head chopped off. It's a crack up. So write me a ticket and I'll do it over and over, because I think it's a B.S. rule.
Keith

Doug, now don't be gun shy. I understand your point about laws applying equally to all, but try and look at it this way. Law enforcement officers are given a fair amount of discretion on how they treat situations that they run into in the field If they carved a ticket for every single violation that they saw, they'd have to wear backpacks to carry the extra ticket books. Just sit at any stoplight in any city for 5 minutes.

'Some' officers out there look at the intent of the person. Is the guy out there helping his son or daughter and trying to get the kid involved in fishing, or are they some meat hungry slob trying to bend the rules? Would you think that the two situations differ, and would you want the officer to have some leeway in how they approach each individual situation? I know I would. (I am not calling guides or their clients meat hungry slobs, so please settle down.)

Look at it another way. You are going down the highway, pulling your boat trailer, but one of the taillights is out. You get pulled over and the officer lets you know that there is a problem. He has every right to carve you a ticket for faulty equipment, even if it worked when you pulled out of your driveway, but about 95 percent of the time all you will get is a warning.

In some instances the law is black and white, but sometimes it is gray. The police, deputies and gamies enforce the law. Judges interpret the law. If you have a problem with a ticket, fight it. Explain the circumstances. The judges and juries also have the ability to interpret the meaning of your actions, and may dismiss the charge.

I don't mean to speak for all law enforcement officers out there, but knowing a number of them has taught me 'some' of their thought processes.

Sorry for all of the disclaimers, but I am trying not to offend anyone. I already went there once. Andy

I have to agree with Andy on this one. It's the game wardens discretion to make a call on what law "he believes" is being violated. Just getting a citation doesn't mean that you are guilty of the violation. The game warden writes a citation for the "alleged violating" of a rule, or what "he believes" rule you have violated. The courts will allow you the opportunity to either pay the fine or have a hearing contesting the alleged violation.

Think of this way, the fishing laws give you a perfect example under "You may not: Snag or attempt to snag". The Game Officer makes the "attempt" call!

It's quite clear that the game officers are given certain powers of "discretion" on many issues, Almost always, the court will take the word of a trained game officer over the word of the person who was issued the citation, unless he can make a better case then the officer. Just like the law that says you may not "attempt" to snag. Who else but the game officer can make that on the spot call? He makes the call and if you don't like it, you go to court.

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

andy m not getting gun shy or need to settle down, friendly discussion, that is why we have alot of the problems we do now a days,i personly have been pulled over for a tail light not working and i did get off with a warning, were as a friend of mine got a ticket for haveing a light out, go figure, was ther on both of them my friend did not get out of line with the officer, it was in fact towards the end of the month which i believe to be quote time, now is this fare ? why do you think so many people want to sue or yell prejeduce, why? because two people treated differently for the same thing. you say the law is black and white and some times gray, it shouldn't be, remember officers are human also they have bad day's like every one else even though they are suppose to be professional it doen't alwaws happen. i am not trying to discredit law inforcement i to for 30yrs have been around law inforcement in the family, i just feel if the laws were inforced the way thy were written, and quit looking for more of them life might alot simpler, thank you doug

Hi Doug,

I will always try to include humor in my posts, so I was just ribbin' ya and relating my response to "don't shoot the messenger, I'll shoot back." to your toned down reply of "andy this isn't directed at you." I thought you were having fun as well. Notice the smile at the end of the statement. The guide/client referrence was not directed at you, again just a preemptive strike in case I set someone else off on a tirade. I am particularly good at that if I am not careful, just ask my wife. (humor)

As to the ability of an officer to use discretion, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue. No person can see everything or do everything perfect 100% of the time. We're human.

As to quotas on tickets, they 'generally' don't exist. But an officer who is patrolling for 8 hours should bring something in if they haven't been running from call to call. "Barney" should be able to show "Anj" why we're paying 'him' to tool around the county in a car we all pay for. Take a ride along with your local law some time. You will see people literally "earn" more citations because of their actions. Sometimes they get served additional helpings, sometimes not. Everyone has bad hair days, even bald cops.

Thanks for your replies. I appreciate your input. Andy

P.S. (all of you) Please don't let this one set of responses take us away from the subject at hand. And yes, I usually vote Republican.

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: andy m ]

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: andy m ]

The DAWGS won today RT TM

You must have had a good guide today TM . A good guide will perfectly backtroll plugs to hook fish for guys, without having to hand off rods. . Especially if they only have loose eggs cured in 'cracker'crumbs left. ... The Kid is a plug monkey, so he can tell ya how it is.

RT

I have to agree i think a lot of it lies with the opinion of the law officer. I fished a lot at bonneville this year and we talked to the state cop up there and he said that if the rod was handed of early enough he wouldnt write a ticket but if it was handed off right at the end of the fight to avoid that person having to tag that fish and quit fishing then he would. I dont have a problem with guides handing rods off, the clients are there to catch fish. Some are there to learn but most just want to fight fish. I have handed off a lot this spring and see no problem with it. Anyone who catches a lot of fish isnt going to take a handed off rod anyway. It will only be the inexperienced and young. Just my.02

I say hand 'em off and hand 'em off to me hehehe

I do get clueless sometimes in the front of the driftboat. I lean to one side, look over the side of the boat, don't watch the plug rods so I'm guilty as charged, however, I do know what I'm doing behind the oars and run the show pretty well, thanks

Keith handed me off a couple of his fish earlier in the week and Parker has a bad habit of handing me over the plug-caught fish. There is another point to be brought up which has already been addressed to some degree:

If it's a hatchery fish and you hand the rod off to fill a limit and if you release each and every single witd fish, then who really gives a hoot?

Oh, yeah. Maybe I shouldn't have handed off all of those Wind River springers last month as I hear the hatchery was short quite a few fish and don't have plants for next year

After reading the great posts and opinions, one more question has been brought to my attention. The question is this; If it is illegal as it has been alleged, to hand off a fishing rod after hooking a fish to someone else, such as a client, is it the responsibility of the guide to first inform his clients that they MAY BE violating the fish and game laws by doing so. Or do you think it that OK not to inform them of their options before he (the guide) hands off his rod to them. It appears by the opinions that I have read, that both the client and the guide may both be involved in an illegal act if in fact these alleged law violations are being violated.

As so many of you have stated in your postings, many of the guide's clients are totally naive to what the game laws are and depend totally on what advise their guide tells them. After all, shouldn't the guide know the laws if he is licensed by the state fish and game? The same question goes for the total boat limit issue. Does a guide have a legal or moral obligation to inform their clients about these so-called "gray areas" before they may be put into jeopardy, or do you believe that it's up to his uninformed clients who may even be from out of state to know better? And finally, as it stands right now, all a persons needs to do to become a fishing guide in Washington State is to lay your money on the counter. Should a guide be tested each year when they renew their annual guide licenses on what the current sport fishing laws are?

I think if we can answer these questions on this BB, a lot of the gray areas will be become black and white. What's your opinion?

P.S thanks again to everyone for "not getting mad" and flying off the handle on this issue.


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????


[ 06-29-2001: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]

Ah, responsibility. In general, most people don't want to be responsible for their own actions. Why blame me for not getting a license or reading the regulations when I can blame the guide!

I side with the law on this one...."ignorance is no excuse for the law".

On the flip side, if the guide get's a citation for the fault of his clients, then I'd sure as snot make sure my clients played by the rulez.

Parker

Most of my post on this issue have been directed towards the letter of that law, procedure and the opionions of law enforcement, but here are my opionions.

Hand-off's. I have no problem with it, but I would rather hook my own fish. Of course after watchin' my boat partner hook 15 silvers in a row without any justice for me, I'll take a hand-off.

Boat limit. No problem as long as it applies to all areas, ocean, sound, lakes and streams. Shrimping is a good example. My 5 year old can set a pot, legally, but it is okay for me to "assist" him in pulling the pot. Can I assist him while fishing in a stream, apparently not. People hit the water for a few reasons. Have fun, fight some fish, and hopefully bring something home. Our license fees go towards fisheries enhancement and I think we should be able to reap some rewards.

Guide disclaimer. You bet. The guides should be held to a higher standard as this is their chosen profession. Would I want to be associated with anyone who could get me in trouble? No. I would want to be informed. If the guide's client breaks the law while fishin' with him, the guide should also be fined. The guide controls who gets on his boat. Too many fines and the guide's license gets revoked. (It would take at least 3)

Guide tests. Absolutely! I don't think that they need to be yearly, maybe every three to five years. Boating safety, boat handling etiquette, fishing regs, and basic fisheries science knowledge should be included. There are a bunch of good folks out there, and I think that this would do nothing but improve the experience for all. There are always a few losers in every social group, and this could help weed out some of those questionable guides. (I am not sure of how many bad guides there are, but I am sure that there is at least one.) I have to renew my advanced hunter ed card every 5 years, why shouldn't they?

Here are my simplified fishing rules as I would like to see them.

Size limits. The fish is either big enough or it isn't. No gray.

Area closures. The boundaries are clear and you can either fish for all fish or none. This would eliminate "bycatch".

Boat limits. 5 people with 2 fish each equals 10 fish. That kind of math is black and white, (unless you live in Bucoda. :)) Whatever is done for these folks to get the fish such as hand-offs, fine.

Gear restrictions. Bait/no bait, barbed/no barb. Doesn't seem too difficult.

Native vs. hatchery, its clipped or not clipped.

Multiple rods. Fine by me, as long as you only bring in your limit. This is allowed in other states.

Fish ID. Learn your fish.

I know I may have left out a bunch, but you get the basic idea. If we get to fish, lets fish until the allowable harvest has been met, then the season closes. I may be way off base with some of my opinions, so sorry if I offend you. Until the rules change, I will go by the rules.

Great subject Cowlitz. Thanks for making me think. Andy

[ 06-29-2001: Message edited by: andy m ]

What a thought provoker! I guess that the laws are not completely thought out, DUH!. The laws will be always subject to gray areas. This is human. Do the best you can. Use your best judgment and be staightforward and honest. You may be rewarded, or you may be penalized. Welcome to 2001!

Oh yeah, one more thing. No more nets.

Just curious, did anyone fish with a license guide on our rivers this weekend, If so, did the guide ask you about handing his rod off to you?


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
:confused

most of us still just want to get what we can from the sport so the rules are governed by the pro view, we have the right to believe that we are following the rules and thatit is a sport!!! No one I fish with would argue with rules but this thred just for instance has so many disputed view's welcome to Washington!!! PEace

From what I've seen on the Cowlitz the last few years,guides get away with a lot of special treatment.Like handing off rods.Limiting the boat instead of the liscense etc.I've seen several tickets on the bank for this,but never in a boat.If the guide needs to fish to make sure he's setting up right,great.But after he limits how about releasing every fish he catches.Then as a client limits they and their pole are done.Guides would probably have to put in more time to earn that money. In regards to one of snapsets replies I will agree that guides work their tails off.I have to disagree with the kind of money they make though.I know that when the silvers are in all the guide have 4-6 clients.$125-$150 a pop. Plus I've seen a lot of 2 trip days.I realize there are a lot of expenses but they also get a lot of freebies,like demo rods,reels,line etc.You add it up and tell me theres not much money in it. What I'm getting at is it gives the guides incentive to get limits and off the river as soon as possible.Cutting down on fuel and bait costs,plus the possibilty of getting the second trip of the day.If there was'nt good money in it they would't be doing it. I say treat everybody the same no matter who you are or how you fish,It surely does'nt work that way on the Cowlitz though!

An interesting thread to say the least, even fielded a phone call from a Cowlitz guide who wanted me to edit it, not gonna happen.

Hard for me to be totally unbiased as most will understand, but this is my take on it ...

Passing a rod is okay, many have come up with good examples of where to draw the line. I regularly run a third plug rod when I do plug ... we're each licensed and have the right to fish. As for drifting, some days I fish some, other days none at all, much of it depends on what the clients want and where / how we're fishing. Some people want to watch me fish and see just how I do things myself ... a picture IS worth a thousand words. Some people gladly take the rod to play a fish, others say it's all mine thanks -

Where I think we ought to see a line drawn is when it comes down to a "boat limit". I don't believe in regularly keeping a limit of fish for the guide and sending that fish home with the client. I can't say that I've NEVER done it, but usually only under extenuating circumstances once in a blue moon. Once in a while, I do keep a limit of fish (usually clipped silvers in the fall or some brats) for myself, as I don't get much chance to go out and put a fish or two in our fridge (I rarely freeze anything).

It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit though to see a "no limit kept for the guide" restriction implemented though. In a time when many runs are scarcer, I don't think it's a good practice. After all, it's a limited resource and we're (most of us anyhow) not selling the "meat" anyhow. I would venture a guess that most of the better guides would feel the same way.

A lot of "grey" area involved in this one, but I think common sense and a respect for the fishery should prevail ... too much to ask??

Thanks Bob for not caving into the few, because your site represent the views of the many! That is what makes your site number 1. I think it great when a site like yours can generate so many different opinions without people trying to put each other down. As a past fishing guide myself, I was always very concerned about the issues that are posted in this thread.

That is why I brought them to this BB attention. As fishermen, be it a guide, or be it a sport fishermen, we need to know about these "gray areas". What better place could fishermen fine to have these "openly discussed" issues then "Piscatorial Pursuits'"?

Your web site gives fishermen an open view of many different opinions on numerous fishing techniques and fish related issues. In my opinion, it's the best free fishing newspaper on the market. Thanks again, for not editing a real good informative topic.

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

In a drift boat pulling plugs who hooks the fish same diff I hand off my rod to total strangers at times I get more fish then I need but love to be on the water yes I release fish but love to see other have a chance and yes the last few years I have fished solo due to a life style change But who cares who hooks a fish the trick is to land it so I don't care if the rod is in the pole holder pulling plugs or if the guide hands off or tells them to jerk let those that would not get a chacne have one how or who ever help them