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#162799 - 10/21/02 12:14 AM Need help on voting?
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
I've been perusing and contributing to this board for almost a year now. One thing I've learned.there are quite a few intelligent people that I've learned from here. I have to admit, when it comes to politics I'm not the brightest person around. the general election is coming up Nov 5th. Anyone that would like to make a contribution of help on who you might think would be a good choice for a candidate, especially when it comes to fishing and hunting issues, would be appreciated. A Pre-Thanks for all your input rolleyes

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#162800 - 10/21/02 04:37 AM Re: Need help on voting?
Metalhead Mojo Offline
Spawner

Registered: 11/26/01
Posts: 555
Loc: Browns Point
are you sure you want to open up that can of worms???
_________________________
alcohol, tobacco, firearms, who's bringing the chips?

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#162801 - 10/21/02 08:40 AM Re: Need help on voting?
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9159
Loc: everett
Let's NOT open up another political discussion, seems to bring out the beast in us.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#162802 - 10/21/02 11:43 AM Re: Need help on voting?
LittleZoZo Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 430
Loc: Rochester, WA USA
As long as you're asking........... Vote yes on R-51. I work in heavy construction and the passage of R-51 will make lots of work for us construction guys. Aside from that, I got nothin for ya.
_________________________
If you get home and I'm not there, don't eat it.

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#162803 - 10/21/02 01:16 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Seacat Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 374
Loc: Duvall, WA
Just say NO to incumbents. Clean house and get some real representation. We're in the big mess now with the people already in office running the show. Especially in my district, they don't represent the MAJORITY of the people and they don't deserve to be re-elected. They've had time to work on the problems and what have they been able to do with it? They've reached the conclusion that they just need more money. More and more and more.........and on and on and on....... mad

New taxes and more taxes are NOT NOW, NOT EVER going to be the right answer. There is no silver bullet for living with tough spending constraints. Unfundated mandates, non discretionary spending mandates and bond debt are KILLING us now. We can't continue to go down that road. Why do taxes continue to have to be raised each and every time the law allows it? Why can't they live with the ceilings we voted for? Face it, taxes are "crack for polititions". Just say NO to NEW TAXES. They won't unless you do! Will there ever be a ceiling on the amount of taxes we must pay? Not if the current mentality is allowed to continue. When you retire on a fixed income how will you absorb the new taxes of the day? Turn off the lights? Eat less? These are realities for many people NOW.

ZoZo - we'll still be building roads until the end of the fossil fuel era of this planet. Even if R-51 fails which seems likely, you'll find construction work and the funding will be found for it when the people speak loud enough. smile And please be aware that R-51 is a DOWN PAYMENT, a 25-30 year mortgage if you will, on future needs for more money to complete many of the projects proposed and started by R-51. The saga continues.......grrrrr.

Why does the DOT need R-51 for new construction? Because they built roads on bonds that we're still paying for and they can't build anymore until those bonds are paid for. Is there a pattern developing here?

Just another OPINION! laugh Oh, yea, JUST KIDDING!!!!!! It's all just for fun, no big deal OK? Buy VISION hooks!!! ha ha ha...
_________________________
Seacat

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#162804 - 10/21/02 02:51 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Vic Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 565
Loc: Everett, Wa, USA
Vote No on R51. The referendum outlines 2000 projects that it will start, but only finishes a few. They claim that this referendum will raise 10 billion dollars. I have heard numbers ranging between 25 and 50 billion to complete these projects. The truth is there is no plan (at least none that they are willing to talk about now) of where that extra money will come from, and no one really knows what the actual costs are. I strongly agree that we need to do something about our transportation system, but this is an ill thought out plan that will create as many problems as it solves.

Seacat made a good point about the WashDOT. I have a little story about WashDOT that I would like to add, which is contributing to my vote no mentality.
In 1994 a good friend of mine who works for one of the big 3 counties as a civil engineer(want to keep specific project and county private) submits a plan to rework one of the main roads that connects 2 growing towns through a rapidly growing residential area. Turns out this road is a State Route so the plan needs to go to WashDOT for approval. Washdot sends these plans through 17 sub departments and has 49 different engineers scrutinize them. The original idea was that at the end of this process the county engineers would meet with the Wash DOT engineers and discuss possible changes. At the end of round one the majority of the original 49 engineers had either retired, were promoted/transferred, or quit the state all together. So What does WashDOT do? Makes the county submit the plans again. The long and short of it is that the plans that were originally submitted in 1994 just got approved a few months ago and construction will begin soon. I would guess that they (WashDOT) could have cut this process down by about 75% and still given us a road that would be just as good /safe/environmentally friendly, and it would probably be done by now.

I personally believe that this state needs tax/government reform. I will not vote to give a bureaucracy as wasteful as the DOT any more of my money until they streamline process, cut costs and become something a little closer to efficient. I hope you say no too.

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#162805 - 10/21/02 07:51 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
Stifler, You're right . After I posted this question, I realized that I could open the proverbial can!
My main question wasn't so much about the issues but, of the candidates available, who would be a good vote in regard to supporting us on the fishing and hunting issues?
After I posted I was looking through the November issue of Outdoor life and they have a pretty good article on who supports us in this state as far as the fishing and hunting issues go.
Hopefully we can get some good people in office that will have our interests at heart. smile

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#162806 - 10/21/02 09:47 PM Re: Need help on voting?
bluenote Offline
Smolt

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 89
Loc: cloud 9
politicians usually only have THEIR interests (how much do I get paid) at heart.

just my .02 here...
_________________________
donate blood - play hockey

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#162807 - 10/21/02 10:35 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
Here's the rub. The democrats have a much better record in environmental issues, and without a good environment there will be no fishing and hunting. The republicans have a better record of supporting gun owners and hunters, but they are also much more in the pocket of logging, mining, and dam builders.

As a fishermen, when in doubt I vote democrat. If you doubt what the republicans can and will do to fish runs go read the thread on Klamath River salmon kill.
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#162808 - 10/21/02 11:05 PM Re: Need help on voting?
JacobF Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 796
I'm not voting for any incumbants. I'm voting no on R-51 and yes on I-776.
_________________________
Team Xtream
Xtream Fly Fishing & Outdoor Gear Pro Staff
206-762-6170

www.pugetsoundanglers.org

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#162809 - 10/21/02 11:25 PM Re: Need help on voting?
CedarR Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1326
Loc: Olympia, WA
I'll vote for R-51, WHEN they attach a net ban rider to it.
On second thought, it would be a whole lot cheaper to buy out the netters, than to throw tax dollars into that "bottomless pit".

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#162810 - 10/21/02 11:51 PM Re: Need help on voting?
G-MAN Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 403
Loc: BELLINGHAM / EVERSON
Democrats are for the enviorment all right, but against hunting and gun ownership, period! mad
Remember Clinton wanted to create a National Park from St Helens to Canada. "Protect our natural forest!" smile
Yes, I agree we need to be more aware of our natural resorces, but a National Park would eliminate "ALL" firearm posession and hunting within it's borders! Those are the rules. mad I'm sure the bold, black bears and hungry cougars would like that laugh
If Gore would of got in he was going to finish what Clinton started!

And for Local representation I'm voting for Kelly Lindville-Demo, and Pete Kremen-Demo, because they both like to "Drive Drunk!"
Must be nice to be "Above the Law" and only get a slap on the hand. I'm sure they both won't have MADD's suport this time. laugh laugh
Come to think of it I havn't seen any of Pete's signs out. eek

The problem is we can't find a party that makes us totally happy on all issues can we? wink
_________________________
"Life is tough!, it's tougher when your STUPID!!
"What don't kill you, will only make you Stronger!'

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#162811 - 10/22/02 12:28 PM Re: Need help on voting?
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3001
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Yo Vic,

Your above post is a perfect example of how political discussions on this board SHOULD be conducted! No party rhetoric or bashing, just an informed opinion on an issue that will affect us all to some degree. I concur completely. smile
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

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#162812 - 10/22/02 06:38 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
Here's why I will vote yes on R-51.

1. I am sick of sitting in traffic jams. I can't go where I want, when I want, without always wondering how bad the traffic might be. To me that is a loss of my freedom.

2. Even with a .09 cent a gallon gas tax our gas is dirt cheap. In real inflation adjusted dollars its even cheaper now than back in the "good old days" when it was .32 a gallon. If you don't beleive me do th math. Been to Canada lately? Their gas is much more expensive than ours. Same with Europe and most of the world.
We can easily afford this tax!

3. If you consider all the wasted gas, lost time and lost lives we endure becasue we were too cheap to fix this mess years ago, this is a darn cheap soultion. Why do you think both republicans and democrats are backing this?
4. I understabd that R-51 won't fix all our problems and I understand that we will have to continue to fund transportation projects even after the initiative money is gone. So what? Doing this is better than doing nothing. The current transportation mess is choking our area and hurting our economy. Remember one reason Boeing gave for moving their headquarters to Chicago was the transportation mess in Puget Sound hurting thei ability to get business done.

5. I understand that to get something I have to pay for it. What fairer tax than to charge those who buy the gas to drive on the roads?

A local politician is running on a platfrom of better transportation and lower taxes. I'm telling ya it can't be done. There is no free lunch.
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#162813 - 10/22/02 06:59 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 15591
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
The only help I need is in figuring out why 60-70% of the population routinely fails to vote at all.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#162814 - 10/22/02 07:11 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
Dan S:

I agree but that may not be all bad when you consider that many of today's highschool grads cannot name their own senator, more than 20 states or most of the lessons history has tried to teach us all.

I think there should be a mimimun knowledge test for voters. If you move here from another country you must proove a minimum knowledge of history and our form of governmen to become a citizen, hence a voter. No such requirement exists for those born here. Maybe that's how we got todays crop of politicians.
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#162815 - 10/22/02 07:30 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Vic Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 565
Loc: Everett, Wa, USA
Surecatch:

I don't think that your "R51 is the only game in town" attitude is a good one. We are talking about trying to solve problems that the politicians have been ignoring since the mid 80's. What we need is a plan that has a beginning a middle and an end. Rather than just a beginning.

I agree with most of your points, except the part about tax payers being "too cheap". We already pay one of the highest gas taxes in the country. We are not cheap, we want to make sure that we are getting our moneys worth. Up to this point we haven't. Sound transit has wasted tens of millions of dollars, and they haven't moved one shovel full of dirt yet. They are offering a severly cut down version of what we originally voted on that will service fewer riders. Were we being cheap when we approved that one?

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#162816 - 10/22/02 07:47 PM Re: Need help on voting?
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3001
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
There's one word that the lack of IMHO, is how we got to where we are now, and Vic said it: ACCOUNTABILITY Auditing government waste, and holding our representatives accountable, instead of more taxes, seems like a much better solution to me. Now if we can only figure out how... frown
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

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#162817 - 10/22/02 08:00 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
Accountability is all well and good. As a matter of fact R-51 does contain very stringent auditing and accounting controls. But, take it from me, a guy who spent 30 plus years auditing government programs, there is no where near enough waste and fraud to be found to cover even a fraction of the coat of rebuilding our transportation system.

Try as we might we will never get rid of all waste or fraud, but that deosn't mean we shoudl, never build anothe bridge, or freeway or better yet some new boat ramps does it?
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#162818 - 10/22/02 08:43 PM Re: Need help on voting?
Vic Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 565
Loc: Everett, Wa, USA
Surecatch:

True enough there is stringent acounting practices in the current referendum, but no accountablilty as in no penalties.

How much do you think that project I mentioned above will cost, and how much of that was 50+ engineers looking at the same plans multiple times because of their own ineffiecency? Lets talk about sound transit or the money that the ferry system can't account for over the last 10 years, or the fact that DSHS is over staffed by as much as 30% since welfare reform. Where do you want to start? I am sure that I have only scratched the surface. Maybe this waste won't solve the traffic problem, but it would be nice to get something tangible for that money.

I learned today that the term of the gas tax that R51 will create is 10 years. After 10 years the tax will not be removed, and that money will no longer be allocated for R51 specific projects. If that isn't taking the shaft I don't know what is.

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