Just want to see how the reported 60/40 split of Americans plays out with this group of individuals. 60% for 40% against. After all we all know none of us ever have any strong opinions. Let your key be heard.

War! lets kick some arse! well die of old age if we wait for the un.

Confucious say : your best defense is a good offensive. I hope we go kick some N Korean arse too! Fear is no reason to oppose war.

Confucious also say : The only thing you have to fear is fear itself. Meaning If we fail to act because of fear were going to get stomped. IE France

12 years is long enough!

I wonder if the saddam toilet bowl targets are going to get popular again?


Kim jong wonton is going to feel really stupid if he trys to send any missles are way.

We can thank Billy blow job for mess we got now. Did you know he gave up the opportunity to aprehend osama 3 times Sudan offered him on a silver platter!

Do you think N korea benefitted from Billy boys sharing of long range missles with China

I think the human shield thing the liberals are doing is great! the less of them here the better for everything.


We didnt get here sitting on are hands! America is full of bad arses and it seems the world needs to remember that, and seemingly so do some of us.

This poll results doesn't surprise me a bit......Truth is, in a fight, we as a group would be some pretty tough nuts.....at least those of us who would be left after the internal power struggle.......LOL

Read in the paper the other day that a lot of trhe human shields left because they couldnt be at the spots they wanted to protect.Hospitals food supplies,etc.
Saddam wanted them at sites of his choosing.Prime targets,like arms factories,chemical plants etc.
I laughed my a butt off when I read it.
Couldnt believe their beliefs are only as strong as the position their in.Actually when it comes down to it I could.Lets risk our life only if its not at risk.

If you voted for war only with U.N. mandate,you may as well vote no war.No way iys passing the U.N. with the mighty French in there.

No artificial wars...if it hadn't have been for 9/11 Dubya would not have had a way to sell this war to the American people.

Still stinging from that slap in the face Americans have too easily bought into their being some connection between the two , Iraq and 9/11 that is.

Coincidental that we started upping the ante with Iraq in the UN on 9/12/02?? I'm sure any emotional connection that resulted from that timing was purely coincidental....

Before some chucklehead gets out his paint brush and starts painting me as some sort of bleeding heart, dove, anti-american whatever...

You are wrong. I am a centrist for the most part...

:p

As small as this world is, I think we need to have world concensus to retain moral authority and be effective leaders. I don't fear war with Iraq so much as with China, N. Korea, Iran. I think this is a big can of worms that could come back to bite us bigtime and threaten our way of life. I also think establishing anti-American sentiment throughout the world cannot help prevent terrorism here. We may take out one potential source of weapons of mass destruction, but create many others. To those who are quick to blame the problem on the "wussy" French, do you remember their stance on Viet Nam, Desert Storm or Bosnia? They fought before us in Viet Nam and with us in the other two. Just my 2 cents.

I'm not even sure you need world consensus. I'd settle for 1/3 of the world thinking this was a smart thing to do. As it is, even if this is the right thing, we have used up a lot of political capital that will take us a long time to earn back.

But it no longer matters what I, or any of us citizens think. GW has pretty much said that he doesn't give a **** what we think - he's gonna go kick some ass.

We'll know in six months whether this was smart.

Inspection Teams....


Have you noticed anything fishy about the inspection teams who have arrived in Iraq? They're all men! How in the name of the United Nations does anyone expect men to find Saddam's stash? We all know that men have a blind spot when it comes to finding things. For crying' out loud! Men can't find the dirty clothes hamper. Men can't find the jar of jelly until it falls out of the cupboard and splatters on the floor.... and these are the people we have sent into Iraq to search for hidden weapons of mass destruction? I keep wondering why groups of mothers weren't sent in. Mothers can sniff out secrets quicker than a drug dog can find a gram of dope. Mothers can find gin bottles that dads have stashed in the attic beneath the rafters. They can sniff out a diary two rooms and one floor away. They can tell when the lid of a cookie jar has been disturbed and notice when a quarter inch slice has been shaved off a chocolate cake. A mother can smell alcohol on your breath before you get your key in the front door and can smell cigarette smoke from a block away. By examining laundry, a mother knows more about their kids than Sherlock Holmes. And if a mother wants an answer to question, she can read an offender's eyes quicker than a homicide detective. So... considering the value a mother could bring to an inspection team, why are we sending a bunch of old men who will rely on electronic equipment to scout out hidden threats? My mother would walk in with a wooden soup spoon in one hand, grab Saddam by the ear, give it a good twist and snap, "Young man, do you have any weapons of mass destruction?" And God help him if he tried to lie to her. She'd march him down the street to some secret bunker and shove his nose into a nuclear bomb and say, "Uh, huh, and what do you call this, mister?" Whap! Thump! Whap! Whap! Whap! And she'd lay some stripes across his bare bottom with that soup spoon, then march him home in front of the whole of Baghdad. He'd not only come clean and apologize for lying about it, he'd cut every lawn in Baghdad for free for the whole damn summer. Inspectors my ass... You want the job done? Call my Mother.

Fun5,

I'll vote for Mothers too go get those "mother-f's! Well, on second thought if we go in send the troops! America needs to be strong right now!
Cheers, Darin

Common Angola ... your with us ain't ya?? common... pleeease... I'll be your friend !!! We look like a bunch of whores going around begging third world countrys to support our mandate because the rest of the world won't.

War with Iraq..whats not to like.. cheap, easy and you get to read the answers from the back of the book. How about taking care of some real issues... North Korea for instance. The world is watching and we are playing the wrong cards.

Hows that tax break workin for ya ??

toby kieth pretty much states it in his song :we''ll put a boot in your ass, it's the american way! saddam don't know what he is in for

I always thought this was a fishing board but I could be wrong. Everyone is for going in a kick Iraq's butt. Then North Korea then what is next. France has those weapons so does the English.So do alot of other people. What do you want to do go through one country at a time until they are all thinking like we do. I don't think that would work very well. I blame him father for stopping but he's making to same mistakes his old man did. I'm for live and let live and quit trying to change their way to our way.

Old Man

You are wise. Thanks for telling it like it is. That is why the masses of humans on this planet feels the same way.

The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

OldMan,

While I respect your seniority and may life experieces I'm sure I think you are incorrect. A pacifist does nothing to make our world better or improve anything, they only accept what everone else has changed/improved. We must all(peoples of the earth) believe there is a reason in this Universe to stand up for a concept -no matter how vague or undeveloped it may be of -"Rule of Law". We have international law outlining shared and agreed upon beliefs and concepts on how nations need to behave in todays world. The world is a much "smaller" place than it was many years ago. Other nations activities do and can influence the livelyhoods of nations around the globe!(Even ourselves -the U.S.A. we must behave responsibly and follow the laws as they state, it is not just "our-way" but we might see the laws as not being protected...?)

*Case in point, we only need to look at commercial fishing on the high seas to see the impact of some "people-choosing to do -whatever-they wish" and the ramifications of not following agreed upon "rules of International Law". These MUST be respected and abided by(in the end it only serves to hurt us all) otherwise, yes indeed WAR and fighting CAN be the ultimate outcome. What do you think about, let's say "IF" the Chinese and the Tawainese decided they wanted all the salmon, tuna and makerel of "Our"(U.S.) coasts "international-waters" like lets say -150 miles off our Washington coast and netted to their happy hearts content -NO! that is rediculous. Imagine if those same nations also decided to harvest all the grey whales or even some of them -right of our coast just beyond the boarders of our U.S. waters? Do you not think such activity would first start a debate, then a fight then if not respected and followed as the international laws outline a possible war? I think it could be so......

Messages sent out by the world such as 1441 in the UN Charter post a "warning" to nations (such as Iraq) now and in the future that international law is to be repected for it's clear means to an end. And yes, it is right to let nations do as they see fit "within" the confines of their own boarders(which can be unfortunate -human right violations etc.) if it does not have serious potential impacts now or in the future on other nations. (Remember, in th case of Iraq the Gulf War of 1991 which the UN supported and outlined law, President George Bush -Senior acted in "restraint" and di dnot seek American "Imperialism" and a take over -if you will -of Iraq or any part of it. He ultilmately resepected UN Law) Today these same "Laws" and improvements made to them, are being disrespected and ignored by more than just Iraq.

Most importantly nations which have shown to have very "bad" records(credit in the international community) or let's say, "police reports" for the sake of analogy, are to be on probation by all the nations of the world expecting them to behave more responsibly "to" the world community. Now, if nations pose no threat or defience to any of those internationally recognized "Rules of Law", or have no "bad" records -then they should be left alone to live in Peace as they wish and can and should be allowed to govern themselves as such and ordain themselves in any cultural and traditional ways they wish..

Those are my thoughts.......

Good Fishing, Darin

Now I'm a pacifist. I've been called a lot of things but not that. I did my thing in the military. But it was a few years ago. I'm not against war but if we go to war have it for something. He hasn't bothered us yet and I don't think that he is capable of getting to us. It seems that he has everybody worried about something that he cannot do. Besides they all like to harrass the big kid on the block.

I am neither yea or nay.. But I support whatever decision is made. However, logistically (money) speaking... we have too many assets in the region NOT to do anything at this tenure...

Either do it or send the forces home. It is too costly to sit around and wait!

I have a sneaky suspicion something going to happen this coming week.

Time to short sell all your stocks!


Downriggin'

Old Man.

Steelnerves, mailed me an E-mail with a threat that I forwarded on to the moderators. He was pissed that I disagreed with him so he use my personal info to attack me. I ask that he communicate with me on the baord and not try to pick fights in back alleys (personal E-mail) with people that don't agree with him. Post all comments to me in a thread so the moderators can view it.

Thats pretty scary stuff. There are all kinds of wackoo, crazies out there, so I would suggest that you really consider whether to put personal stuff in your info that would allow these things to happen. I try to steer clear and avoid direct contact with those types of people. Until this happen, I have only recieved constructive and positive supportive E- mail contacts from board members. If you want to discuss and issue with me keep it on the board so all eyes can see.

He probably made the mistake because he in new to the board and has been using it a lot without getting in much fishing. It takes longer that 2 months for some of us to get the hang of communicating in Cyber space, in what is first of all a fishing board. There are other boards( non fishing) that may feature a different agenda that caters to those people that think alike and only those people.

I will continue to respect fellow board members without personal threats and will assume that this want happen again. If you have a complaint against someone report it to the moderators. That would be their job to decide if rules are being broken.

Daylight is the best didinfectant, thats why I choose to share with the entire board.

I'm kind of in ageement with 'Downriggin"
neither yea nor nay....but I do know if there is a pending conflict and you blink or step back the *$$ho!s in the world will take it as a weakness!!! (by the way I'm a proud Korea vet)
We just have to trust in the wisdom of our leaders!!!!!!??????

Oldman,

No I did not mean you personally are a pacifist just that we/anyone needs to not be that way if we can help it. I give you much credit for serving in Korea AND your vast knowledge of fishing! I have actually enjoyed many of your other posts on this board. I just chose to disagree with you on this subject and I wished to explain why. Of course this got me thinking about all the issues on the table.

Bob and crew,

I do not think it was very fair and nice for someone to "outloud" try and embarass me or make me out to be a bad person. I chose not to make it visible to everyone how I disagreed with "Johnny-Lee" because I thought it might be rude to allow everyone to see. I wished to gather his true feelings an inputs on how he feels about the subject -if he wanted to- so I emailed him directly and short --upset -yes I was. Still these are only words and for him to accuse me of being a bad person isn't very fair based on words. I think many of us stretch it out on here....Im very passionate about subjects and it might scare people. Maybe I'm wrong?

Sincerely, Darin

I don't know what's been going on with this nasty email businesses I keep hearing about over the past week ... but frankly, I myself don't see the need for it nor will I tolerate it behind "closed doors" of the board if it's relating to the board.

Basically, that means if you're getting nasty stuff from another board member ... please forward my way and they will probably be kindly escorted to the door.

Visible or not, the lack of respect for other board members has no place here ... disgreements are fine ... that's a primary function of discussion boards, but the failure to show repect for others is not.

Heck, look at Plunker and myself ... kinda like oil and water in our views, but at least we keep things respectful

Thanks ... I hope discussion on this ends here.

Steelnerves,

You new you were being rude that's why you choose the try to hide it. Why E-mail me with this anger of yours? It's not my problem, period.

You say that they were only word but how would you feel if someone you didn't know mailed you such crap. If you need more info on that subject there are other ways to go about getting it.

If you are aware that your passion scares people... then try to correct this character defect in order to be a better person. I will allow you to do that because I know what it's like to be human. Human's make mistakes.

I will accept your E-mailed apology and will assume that you ment it and not the round about crap you are saying above. If it's OK with you I will be done with this matter.

Hope you catch a big Slab steelie in the near future so that we all can share in your joy.

Well, the poll results are pretty much what I expected of this board, as well as some of the rabid responses against peace.

Standard issue nationalistic fervor, complete with gratuitous displays of destruction of anything not "patriotic" enough (e.g. Dixie Chicks CDs, French Fries, etc..) by unthinking drones. What's next, book burnings of Alexis D'Tocqueville?

At least the mobs are predictable. Tell them who to hate, and they give their Two Minutes Hate. Never mind who gave the Iraqis the arms and technology in the first place.

The mindless aggressive attitude is coming back to haunt us, though. The schoolyard bully is discovering the attitude of putting "a boot in the ass 'cause it's the American Way" doesn't make any friends.

So, here's the truth of the matter: The whole Iraq matter has been planned and set before September 11th. That's right, we were going to war with Iraq the moment Bush took office. The events of that day have become our Reichstag Fire, despite the fact the no link between Al-Queda and Iraq has ever been proven. Those events were the pretext for Bush and neo-conservatives to curtail our civil liberties, try to quash dissent, and put thousands of good people in harm's way in order to finish the first Gulf War.

Tonight we stand on the brink of chaos and war.

You arrogant, traitorial fools.

[LIST]


So what? We helped create a monster now lets correct are mistake! good point.

When your #1 the'll always be distain for you. Other countries have been talking smack about us for along time, even the ones that wouldnt be countries if it were not for us. That will happen whether or not we go to war. Can you imagine all the whining that would go on if the U.S pulled completly out of world politics including the billions of dollars in aid were paying several countries. To be #1 you have to be a player, we do alot of playing and we are #1 bacause of that , and we will continue to be #1.

Iraq is a clear and present danger, they posses chemical and biological agents along with doctor germ. That alone would be no big deal for instance if France ,Britain, Spain, or Norway had these there is no reason for us to feel threatened by them they are led by reasonable people. Saddam hussein is a frickin pissed off madman that doesnt give a hoot about the world, its people, or for that matter his people. There is nothing stopping him from handing over quanities of these lethel agents to terrorist organizations that have no problem crossing our week borders. Therefore creating a real threat to the homeland!


If little boy has a gun wouldnt you take it away? Or would you wait for the gun to smoke?

I prefer to put out fires before they start!

And so what if we get a great deal on some oil while were there wouldnt that be in the best interest of this country. Whats wrong with that?

The UN is a useless soap opera and a joke. Bunch of politicians who can't even speak the same language sit there and BS each other through translators. That says it all. It can NOT get any thing done nor does it have ANY power to do it. There has been many other UN mandates and resolutions that have been ignored, so add another one to it. Why are we trying to twist the UN's arm? Whom are we trying to fool? Is it just a feel good thing? Since the powerful nations pick, choose and influence the UN mandates & resolutions, I say we should abolish the UN and spend the money on wildlife habitat

HERE HERE!

Yeticaster,

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head.

Again I would recommened another look at Yeticaster's above post and you will see clearly what is going on with this picture.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

It seems (one) of the reasons we are going in is to free the Iraqi people so they can express thier feeling for or against thier goverment and the way they handle thier politics. It seems alot of people in this country are forgetting our rights as Americans! Its going to happen so why dont we all pray for our men and women and hope it goes fairly quickly for both countries sake

O.K, here we go... No time to worry about right or wrong but to pray for all involved. A lot of people are probably going to die in the next 24 hours.

I don't understand how I trust and believe Colin Powell but get the creeps when I listen to G.W.. Whatever the case, its on.

Ditto Yeticaster.

Some of you that hold such disdain for the UN confuse me. You have absolute contempt for an organization that is modeled exactly after the government that you so fervently support. Isn't congress "just a bunch of politicians sitting around BSing each other?"

If I could take the military away from GW, I would.

Seems true in a weird way. A lot of the American people are being led by their emotions and the rhetorical patriotic dogma. Look at the Dixie Chick controversy. She isn't punished by the government (dictator) because the government has convinced (conditioned) the people to do it for him. Ingenius.

People; please refrain from using the "humanitarian" arguement for justifying this war. Bush couldn't care any less about Iraq's people. He cares less than Saddam himself. If this was about humanitarian issues, there are many more countries out there suffering at a greater degree than Iraq. Iraq doesn't even have closed borders; the people can leave whenever they wish (which some are doing now that we are threatening to blow everything up).

If Bush is so concerned with HIS people (that would be us), then why is he putting them all "in harms way?" Why not use all the money he's spending to send troops over there to better protect our nation's borders? If the CIA/FBI were revamped maybe our intelligence sources would be better and tragedies like 9/11 would never happen.

When Bush wants to spend all that money to "free the Iraqi people," what message does that send to the millions of Americans at the poverty level whose aid was just cut because money was diverted for the war effort?

Finally;
Micro said:
I'll bet those American soldiers would rather die of old age. You use the word "we" pretty loosely as you sit comfortably behind your computer.

Hitler, Stalin, and Hirohito thought the same way. Brilliant.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was FDR that said that in his inaugural address, and he was refering to the economic depression that gripped the nation.

Originally posted by Steelnerves:

It's a damn good thing that Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King jr. didn't posess the kind of wisdom that you do Darin. Yep, The two most famous pacifists in history didn't improve a thing! Unless of course you count independence from the British Empire for India, and civil rights reform here in the U.S.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...

Good point 4salt. I am coming to the conclusion however that passivism will not deter terrorist agression but invite it. The links of Sadham with terrorism are a bit skethy, but looking back, if the US had gone after Alkiada (sp?) immediately with the type of resources that we are now after the bombing of the USS Cole, we may be in a different boat now. Bottom line is, nations are either with us in going after terrorism or against us.

I have been away for a couple of days fishing the Sound for cutts and it was good. Now I return to the real world and the talking heads stations are a buzz with news of war. Should have never come back from fishing.

I feel that what is about to happen has to be for one reason and one reason only. If the bantered around fact that Sadam has murdered 1.5 Million Men, Women, and Children is true, this and this alone, requires his disposal. All of the rest of the excuses are just talking points.

The mistake Bush made was to try and sell this country and the world the wrong reason to go after him. We can contain him if we wanted to. We can certainly keep him from attacking us if we had to. But we can not justify the wholesale slaughter of his people as he and he alone has their blood on his hands.

I do not often agree with Bush and on this subject, I do not agree with his reasoning. I am not a Demo or a Repub I am truely an independent. I know innocent people will die, theirs and ours, but there is a greater good to be served here. I am sure if we could have taken him out with a team, we would have done so by now.

Everyday our freedoms are being compromised in the name of protecting our freedoms. Those who cause this instability in my freedoms, either real or perceived, must be stopped. I will not have a wildman in Iraq cause me to have to submitt to personal scrutiny when I want to jump on a plane and fly inside my own country. This is B.S. All of his nature, must be terminated

If we were to pile 1.5 millon dead bodies in France, Germany, Russia, or New York City for the antiwar factions to step over, do you really think there would be the outcry for no war? How about at your house, how would you feel then.

All I can say is let's get it done, once and for all. Let us pray that only a few will die and that the few will be Sadam and his thugs. I know that deaths will occure. Those who are ours, are heroes, at least to me, and those who are innocent bystanders will be the last blood on Sadam's hands. He could have avoided all of this and he alone took the stand not to do so.

If you are against this war think of your mothers, your fathers, sisters, brothers, your neighbors, hell everyone in the greater Seattle/Tacoma area, all dead, at the hands of one man. What sign will you carry now!

Anyone who has someone going to war over there, I want you to know, you and your loveones are true heroes and I bow to your presence.

I hear ya Jeff. I personally haven't taken a concrete position either way yet on the war issue. My reply to Darin was just to point out that pacifism as a tool to exact change (as opposed to violence) has been used with great success, and just because one may be labeled a pacifist, doesn't mean they just sit around and wait for things to happen.

You are 180 degrees off.

Why don't you do something useful like stand in front of an Israli Bulldozer. (A definite Darwin Award Nominee)

Thank the Isralis that Saddam's French Built Nuclear Bomb Plant was destroyed. Things could be much worse and certainly would be if we didn't act to stop the Iraqi's.

Good Bye Saddam. Burn in Hell!

I will probably have about 300 jump on me for this. But this is a fishing site and it seems that we are getting away from what this site is all about I really don't like to talk Politics because all that we are complaining about we as the little man can't change. Now we have people threating each other on this site and that is no good. How about we quit with this thing that is happening arnd stick to fishing and lying about it.

I think an occasional political discussion is healthy but would agree that the personal attacks are not and this site is a familair place for some of us to express personal beliefs on important issues, like going to war.

Gutz - You usually post good light-hearted stuff on these boards. You're WAY out of line with that one though. Why don't you go tell that girl's mother in Olympia just how stupid you think it was for her to die doing something that she believed in. Right or wrong, she didn't deserve it!

Hey there Old Man. I don't think any of us would disagree with your statement about this being a fishing site but don't you think fishing is just a little trite in light of what is going on. We all hope for better days, but now we find ourselves here. It is good to know what our Brotherhood is thinking, would you nor agree?

To those who's opinions may differ, that is what freedom is about. We all can benefit from hearing all our different thoughts. That is, if we think at all.

To those who are of different thoughts. I want to thank you, as you make me think. That is what this is all about

You sad, sorry little man. Do they not teach civics in schools around here?

YUO = IGNORANT WARTARD TOOL!

I guess well see how much our folks over seas like all this anti war crap when they come back. My Uncles my Dad and My Granpas have all been to war, I would be over there too if it wasnt for a disability dammit! You dont sign up for the military for an easy check, People sign up to defend our way of life no matter where that may be. Another thing I would like to say to the left is that an attack on our president is an attack on the Country and billy blow job did nothing about the attack on herberts dad so yes its time for some payback! Why are you people so deadset against whats best for America.

You cant close your eyes click your heels and make the world a better place to live.

Just go form your own country and make pee wee herman your leader and see how long you stay free.

Screw the excuses Micro! (or should I say Rambo ) Grab that deer rifle you got, hop the next redeye for Kuwait city and lead the charge! Whatcha waitin' fer?

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, it's easy to be a hero from behind a computer screen, ain't it.

Turn off the Rush Limbaugh and give the keyboard back to your dad, okay? You can post again after you turn 13.

Gutz

Its possible, believe it or not, to be against the war but smart enough to step out of the way of an oncoming bulldozer.

Given what I have seen here though, I'm not convinced that it is possible to be 'for the war' and not result to either name calling or degradation of one kind or another. Kinda makes Chappy's point (as poorly made as it was) that much more relevant, doesn't it?

micropterus101

Just what are you basing "what's best for America" on? How in the world are we benefiting from disarming a weak country that can't harm us (IMO) and has no ties to terrorism? This conflict WILL have the result of increasing islamic fundamentalism. That WILL lead to increased problems. It could easily lead to myrtardom on a much larger scale than we've seen previously. This is not going to just be about whoopin' Iraqi's around a bit and going home with the trophy... There are much bigger consequences.

If we want to stamp out terrorists, we'd take out the Saudi's. Most 9/11 hijackers were Saudi. Money? From the Saudi's....Hmm... Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia.....All have ties to terroism......none are getting any aggression from the US.

I guess whatever takes our minds off the economy.....

And nope, not a lefty... I'm a libertarian, which is a little more to the right of the Republican party, in general.

Yeticaster,

Bless you for those fine words.

Is it your goal to see how many responses you can get from your ignorant ramblings? I'd say you did pretty good on this one.

With all those vets in your family I find it hard to believe you didn't learn anything from them. Surely they couldn't have come home bragging about the glorious experiences of battle.

For the record, most military DO NOT join simply to protect your right to sit behind your computer and rally to send them to war. Young kids join to make money for college; married kids join to provide for their family; mid-20 year olds join to re-pay college debts or because of the depressed job market; etc. I knew one girl that joined simply to go to Germany so she could buy a BMW cheap and have Uncle Sam ship it back free. I also knew one kid that joined simply because that girl joined (she was a little cutie).

However, I can probably count on one hand the number of kids that joined for purely patriotic reasons. There just aren't a whole lot of people out there begging to be bullet stoppers these days.

goharley,
sense when is the military a scholarship program or welfare program. If people joined just to make money they are sadly mistaken. Remember the army slogan "Its not a JOB its an adventure". And it sounds like the adventure may be starting soon.
When people join they have to know that there is always a chance of war and that was a
risk they were willing to take by signing up.

First of all, that is the Navy's slogan. The Army's used to be, "Be All You Can Be." Now it's "The Army of One."

I wouldn't say the military is a scholorship program, per se, but it has been offering those that qualify additional money for college as an incentive to join since the '80's. A young man/woman can now qualify for as much as $30,000 for college with a four year enlistment. Yes, that's why they join.

Welfare program? Not really, but with the pay we receive a lot are kept at welfare levels. Just as an aside; the largest pay raise the military received since the Vietnam era was when Clinton was in office.

Yes, the kids that join realize that there is a remote possibility that they may see war. But you'd be amazed at how effectively recruiters can downplay that possibility.

Pardon.
That was over the top.

Inflamatory posts such as Yeti's are bound to inflame some.

Nonetheless, If you chose to call me and those who belive that we are on the right course arrogant, traitorial fools, you are certain to get a reaction.

As to this point I have been unable to find any meaning to the word Wartard.

I'm definitely opposed to the war at this stage of the game. If G.W. had the goods on Iraq possessing weapons, then why wouldn't he be able to convince the heads of other nations? Truth is, he doesn't have any evidence or he'd show it to somebody.

Secondly, he has been unable to demonstrate a connection between Al Quida and Iraq. Just because he says theres a connection doesn't make one. He needs to prove the connection and once again, has not.

Thirdly, G.W. lacks to ability to unite people. His tough Texas-speak has polarized nations, not brought them together.

If Bush goes against the U.N., is he any different than Saddam?

Twig

Twig,

Why enact resolution 1441 if you don't intend on doing anything about it? It is clear that some nations (i.e. the French) will never pull the trigger regardless of the threats in front of their nose. I have thought like you up to this point, however, I think the US Gov has more classified materials than is being shared with the press. We are seeing more dem's and repulicans coming out and calling Sadham what he really is, a threat to his people and the rest of the world. The United Nations would debate this to eternity.

The other factor to this is how long is it going to take to accomplish the mission. I don't claim to have all the answers, but the fact is we're going to war and it is undisputable that this guy is a menace.

Well I voted for no War, not because I don't think the ******* doesn't have the weapons or won't use them, I'm pretty sure he will. I just prayed for no war.

There are plenty of warriors in U.S. uniforms that have enlisted, for pure love of country, and believe very strongly that they have a job to do that needs doing, and I salute them, and I pray for them.

I don't believe Pres. Bush is a bad person, and I don't believe he's a warmonger.

I also don't believe that Colin Powell would remain in the position he is in if he didn't believe the job needed doing.

Having said all of this I'm not sure that I agree with either of them (thats my right)

If this war will make it safer in the U.S. then we need to do it. My reservations, come when we start trying to convince the rest of the world that its good for THEM, or that we are doing the Iraqi people a FAVOR.

To hell with that!

If the Problem is Sadam Hussein and his death will make it safer here, then let's send in the guys that take care of that kind of business, (CIA, SEALS,SPECIAL FORCES) and let them do THEIR thing,.... tomorrow,.... next week,.... or two months from now. Why kill a bunch of OUR troops, and colateraly a bunch of iraqis, when we don't have to?

The world already knows were the baddest guys on the block.

We've got a lot of things that need to be done to make the U.S. a safer place, rather than goin to Iraq to kill a mosquito with a sledgehammer. IMHO

herm

How can you argue that we should just trust our leaders blindly, just with faith that they know more than we do? Sorry, that is just not good enough for me!!

What is the threat the French are unwilling to face? By most accounts, the Iraqi army is going to fall quickly. Saddam in "threatening" the world has only gone to war for territorial disputes- Gulf War and Iraq-Iran war. If we go after Saddam, where do we stop? I wouldn't even put him in my top 5 menacing world leaders! Yes, what he's done to the Kurdish people is horrible. What about what went down in Rwanda in the late 90's? Genocide of 100,000 people in days.... No US intervention.

How about Israel? Annan said today that they were flouting international law with their continued oppression and overt aggression towards palestinians. Are we just going after some law breakers, or should our #1 welfare recepient be in the axis of evil as well?

Failing to disarm is just not a reason to go to war. It is the fundamental right of every nation state to self-determination as per Wilson's 14 points speech (point 13). As a part of that, all nations have the right to be able to defend themselves. Even Japan which has given up its right to war has a "self defense force."

You know, it's sad when not even MEXICO will vote for the UN resolution... We knew France wasn't, but Mexico? Hmmm... interesting.

"undisputable that this guy is a menace."

Half of America (or more)is already disputing whether or not he is menace...what IS undisputable is that Dubya will lead this nation into war in spite of what his consituency, the American people, think.

This conversation is really moot because of that....whether you appreciate the connotation or not, Chappy's reference to Goering's remarks at Nuremburg look to me like the words most worth consideration...consider whether or not we are 'protecting freedom' (which is threatened how?) or settling a score. To say that we are going into this conflict to 'protect freedom' is a bigger lie than Bubba's.....and one with far greater consequences.

Hell, I am opposed too, but it's my job! It is a duty I swore to- Support and Defend the Constitution of the United States of America.

First, Iraq is not in compliance with the first resolution. Documented destruction of their MWD. Where is it if it hasn't been documented as destroyed? If it has been destroyed, why isn't it documented? Unfortunately the burden of proof is on us... I have a strong feeling we'll have an answer shortly.

Secondly, most Americans are using selective hearing on this issue. Connection issue? Yes, future connections. This, my friend, has been proven through numerous intelligence sources. To demonstrate this would be costly to security of the nation and the personnel collecting it!

Most unfortunate will the use of WMD on our troops this war. Then, the Administration will say, "Told you so." And that scares the sh!t out of me...

Downriggin'

DR,
That I told you so line is the one that scares the **** out of me too! Keep your head down friend.



I guess the thing that confuses me the most is why, we have to resort to ridiculing each other or trying to demean people who have a different perspective on this issue.

I don't think it makes one an idiot to post an opinion that differs from mine.

herm

G.W.B is on in 15 minutes. I guess we all owe it to ourselves to watch and listen. We all have brains, I feel we should use them. Let us see what's up according to George. Should be interesting to say the least.

48 hours and counting............. I truely hope Saddam heeds this warning and for the sake of his people, leaves the country with his sons and goes into exile. Unfortunately, I don't think he will unless we send him to his maker. In that case let's hope this all goes down in one fell swoop and that all of our troops and those of the countries at our side, come home soon and safely!

If the U.S. government had secrets that it couldn't share with the general public that would be one thing. But don't you think that they could share that classified information between the heads of state? Apparently whatever was discussed was not able to convince any other countries.... that is a sad statement.

I don't believe that the french, the russians, the germans, (oh, and the rest of the world ) are necessarily anti-war, its that the case the government has laid out has not been convincing. Just because Pres. Bush says one thing does not make it necessarily true. Let me as this, has the government had a history of telling the truth? I think not.

So we have Saddam Hussein who doesn't want to comply with the U.N. and so we now want him out. Isn't the U.S. just as guilty? We've thumbed our noses at what the U.N. thinks...Sad.

I'm pro U.S. and Anti-Bush...

And one last comment, we can support our troops without supporting the war.

goharley,
You are right about the congress but disregarding the outcome, they have the power to change things whereas in case of the UN it has absolutely no power and it is useless. What I said was primarily my view of the UN and had nothing to do with the current Iraqi situation.

I believe that the French, the Germans, and the Russians will be found to have been trading in items that fall outside of the U.N. agreement that was entered into at the end of the first Gulf war. This will come to light when we get inside Iraq and get a look at the books. Would you vote to blow the whistle on yourself if you were one of these countries, I think not!

France has already been shown to have sold components for rocket fuel via China. Oh yes let's see China was against this too, funny how this works.

Hey Imatwork,
The Russians just signed a multi-billion dollar trade agreement with Iraq. The French get a majority of their oil from Iraq where as we get less than 5% of ours from them; a quantity that the Saudis could more than make up for. I am very partial towards the Russians after spending a month there to bring home my oldest daughter. However, they must realize our intentions and join us in riddig the world of dictators such as Saddam.

TabFry

As the Aussie would say "good on you." A good friend adopted two children out of Russia, they are beautiful kids. But just in our case, me thinks it is more then just oil.

I guess one inteligent remark deserves another so I'll say this.

If you go as a human shield to Protect your adopted dictator, I'll go as Rambo but I hunt with a bow not a riffle.

It would have been alot easier for me if I was able to join the military (easier as in finding a good paying job!), I had to work my arse of to get a good job here.

Guess I have the monkey on my back now, oh well.





I dont think anybody likes war besides the weapons makers. No they dont brag about there glorious battles! They rarely talked about there experiences. Some terrible things happen in war. But the sad fact is that war is sometimes needed to bring peace, and every one of my relatives say they'll do it again! Why? In my opinion because they have invested too much of there lives in fighting for this country to see it go to hell. I dont think people like that stupid traitorous hoe burning the American flag in Isreal does much good for our troops morale. I will continue to support them by any means I have and for now what I have is my speech and this electronic gizmo.

You dont fire people up by saying what there doing is wrong. I want are troops to go in knowing they are fully supported by there benifactors back home! and will come home to a hero's welcome! I offer my humble Thanks and Gratitude and will even share some honey holes when they come back to take there mind off the horrors of war.

With the upcoming events I really thank god (and Florida) GW is in office. I support him and our troops 100%. Things could be much worse Gore could be there with his head stuck in the sand doing nothing to fix the problem.

We spend a lot of time thanking Bob for this Great Website, and he deserves all the credit.

Why doesn't anyone ever thank Gore for inventing the internet? Without him, we couldn't argue with each otehr on issues such as this.

Twig and CWU Girl:

You have provided well reasoned reply's to my post except you really didn't answer the question, what do we do next enlight Iraq's continued non-compliance. I have heard estimates as high as 50,000 Iraqi's will die of starvation per year without food aids. The UN and others have tried to deal with this issue by providing food and Saddham takes the food/aid for his own benefit. While the Bush administrations references to Iraqi links to Alchaida are not backed up by a full fledged documentation of proof, Ari Fliesher today reiterated in his press conference today of Iraqi aid to terrorists when asked that direct question.

It is clear that the strategy of the US Government post 9-11 has changed to pre-emption. The minimum level of evidence to justify military action is debatable (remember Bush did get approval from Congress post 9-11 to use force against Iraq if Saddham didn't disarm), but I will error on the side of protecting the United States against aggressors (who directly attack us or our ally's or can support financially or provide arms to terrorists).

What I don't agree with Bush on is his stead fast drive for tax cutts given the cost of the war and the expanding deficit.

I have to disagree that there is any proof that Al Quida has ANY ties to Iraq. Why would Iraq fund a terrorist organization that openly stresses Iraq as one of its enemies? It just doesn't make logical sense. Saddam knows, as does President Bush, that if there was any link- a shred of proof- we'd already have the planes in the air. Bin Laden wants Saddam out. Saddam is not religious, enjoys scotch and red wines, is said to like old Western movies, and smokes cuban cigars.. This is NOT an Islamic theocracy in any stretch of the imagination. And that is directly against what Bin Laden stands for- making Saddam his enemy.

On of my professors is a ex-CIA, middle eastern expert. His belief that if Bin Laden, Al Quida or any faction there of was in Iraq, they'd be capped in the back of the head and buried in the desert as soon as they could be caught. It is not in the interest of Saddam to have such a destablizing force within his borders- it threatens his grip on power.

As you said, we have changed to a foreign policy of pre-emption, the so-called Bush Doctrine. IMO, its a dangerous step, but that is our current course. What is Iraq capable of- and what are they likely to do? Not a whole lot. Saddam is a power-crazed dictator, but he is not insane enough to do anything to end his own life. An assult on Israel, which is his only option, is entirely too foolish and he's not really concerned with Palestinians anyway.

As for him getting the bright idea to share weapons of mass distruction with terrorists, which was one of Bushes points last night... Give me a break. Nation states are EXTREMELY tight with such technology. The Soviet Union NEVER once gave nuclear weapons to any of its client states or China (which resulted in the split in relations between the two for much of the latter half of the 20th century). These aren't things you give to Islamic fundamentalists outside your control. It doesn't make sense to believe that is a real threatening option that could actually happen.

IMO, of course.

CWUgirl,

What do you think the chances are that Saddam will go into exile, only to return and try to regain his throne? Although he's said he will stay and die in Iraq, I don't think he's that suicidal.

I'm sure if he did go somewhere we'd continue to hunt him down so we could try him for war crimes. But what if he could go into seclusion, a la bin Laden, and then organize a coup as he did in the 80's? (or was it 70's?)

Does that seem like a plausible scenario?

Goharley,

That senario seems highly unlikely to me. Here's why...

Saddam suffers from what I call Michael Jackson syndrome. He lacks what Jackson lacks- people who provide a challenging view to his reality.

In Saddam's reality, he's unstoppable. Why didn't he back down before the last gulf war and retreat? Because he honestly thought that his army was unbeatable by the US. Now we can look at that as extremely naive, but he doesn't have advisors to tell him "hey, the US is going to pound you in to submission in a ground assult that will only last HOURS... maybe you should re-evaluate your game plan." Which is just like Michael Jackson doesn't have people around him to say, "it is inappropriate to sleep with young boys."

Saddam would kill those people who challenge his perception- killed one of his top advisors about a month ago, in fact.

IMO, Saddam will die in Iraq unless taken out to stand trial for war crimes.

Saddam came to power in 1968 when he was instituted as vice president after a revolt and his party (Baath) taking control. In I believe 1979 he became president by deposing of Bakr. Before 1968 he was in exhile- he did try to assassinate their prime minister. At that point in history, it was the high point of "Al Arab" nationalism, a pan-arab movement which united Syria and Egypt for a short time.

Today, I don't think there is a country that could protect him- or would want him. Lebenon, perhaps, since it is lawless.. Syria is unlikely because Isreal (IMO) would not allow him so close.

And as I said before, Bin Laden is not a friend to Saddam. They would not team up for a revival attempt of "damn yankees."

Good points.

The sad thing is that the Bush administration continues to act as though it is the French that have divided the U.N.. If that were true, then wouldn't we have more support than the Brittish, Israel, and Spain? Instead, we can't muster any support. It looks like it is the U.S. that has divided the U.N..

I don't argue that Saddam isn't a threat but the question is how and when we go about millitary action. Why not set some hard, realistic dates and then pursure millitary action if they are not met? Why not involve the rest of the world, or at least some part of? If the threat is as big as the Bush administration make it out to be don't you think other countries would be wanting to take him out?

In the begining of all of this, Bush wasn't going to seek and U.N. approval but later caved when he saw the politics starting to unravel. Now, after months of debate, he's going back on his original policy of "screw the U.N.", the very policy that Bush says he's trying to uphold...go figure.

If the world of pre-emptive strikes takes hold, look for bombs dropping out of nowhere on the U.S.. Korea has already stated that the U.S. isn't the only country who gets to play that game.

Pre-emptive???

According to UNR 678, military action (or enforcement as it is worded) is lawful for non-compliance.. I feel 12 years is way too long in the first place. The main unwritten reason for UNR 1441 was to reinforce UNR 678 so we could strike. Now, the UN Heads of State have no argument... Like GW said, "Since the UN doesn't want to enforce the UNR's, we will!"

Yep.. France gets their oil from Iraq and Russia just did a multi-billion dollar deal, but did they have planes crash into their buildings? I am sure that if they did, they would want a part of the action... Besides, we don't need more 'em.
Give it time, they'll come running...

Downriggin'

Pre-emptive in the sense that Iraq has not attacked us...

"but did they have planes crash into their buildings?"

What's that have to do with Iraq? Are you suggesting a connection between Iraq and 9/11??

No... I am suggesting that France and Russia would have a different perspective of the war.

Remember, there is no proof of ties right now...
We are protecting against future ties

Downriggin'

Well....... Russia actually has some major problems involving Islamic fundamentalists... Chetchyna, located within Russia, borders on Georgia, is almost 100% muslum- all "russians' have been driven out. In their seeking independence, they have done things like bomb various sites in Moscow and their most notable action being when they took a packed Moscow theatre hostage in January- which resulted in the dramatic gasing of the theatre by Putin's government which killed more people than the terrorists. Still no word on what that gas actually was.

So the Russians can definitely sympathize with us. We(US) currently have troops in Chetchyna and I believe Georgia. All apart of the war on terrorism.

They might.....

..but I doubt it would be so clouded a perspective that they would attack Britain because it could 'potentially' attack them in the future...I believe the Brits also have WMD...

It would be akin to arresting people because they are likely to commit a crime....pre-emptive crime prevention.

Some people probably thing that's a really good idea....

There are a lot more countries in this world than sit on the U.N. council.There are way more than 3 that support us.If they arent in the U.N. does that mean that what they say and their support for us doesnt count.Most people seem to think that if you dont sit in the U.N. you dont count.Why is this? They are just as much a country as the others.
Also G.W.B. went to the U.N because Colin Powell worked very hard to pursuade him to.It was not something he wanted to do.That backfired and you can see the change in Powells initiative now.I think it was time for him to get on board or be an outcast in the administration.
If Bush would of went in and attacked right away I would bet money that the outcry would be far less.

MOST countries in the world are members of the United Nations.

The U.N. Security Council has 5 perminate members and a rotation of 10 others. The big 5 have veto power. He couldn't convince more countries than just France and Russia. Mexico, Camarron, Pakistan... all were on the fence or unsupportive.

Bush went to the UN because that it the protocal when you live in a interdependent globalized world. It wasn't because Powell wanted him to- its how things are done in the 21st century!

One thing is for certain, George W. Bush was able to do what Osama Bin Laden was unable to do...unite the Islamic world against us.

Congrats GWB...that's quite a legacy!!!

If we had done the job right twelve years ago none of this would be needed now. I think France forgot all too quickly who saved their butts about 60 years ago. In fact even when they're saying veto their president is saying "we still consider America our friend". Who's butt is he trying to grease. Must be his own.
I say go in kick butt and get it over with. Americans have been damned if they do and damned if they don't in this world for a long time. Everybody wants our money and aid and protection when their butt is on the line and when it's not they all say to hell with us.

I want no part of a world government. I will however opt for civility any day. The AntiChrist can wait his turn.

Twig

Good point!

Twig,
I really think you need to do some home work before you put hands to keyboard! First of all, there are a lot more countries than three that are supporting this U.S. led action. In fact even France has climbed back up on the fence so that they might attempt to save a little face when chemical weapons and other weapons of mass destruction are found. And if you really believe that our president has united the Islamic world against the United States, you really need to take a trip to Kuwait, or Saudi Arabia, The United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Oman, Turkey, Bahrain, Pakistan or the New Afghanistan and see how much they are against us. Have you ever had the opportunity to walk walk down a street in one of those countries?? I have, in several of them as a matter of fact, and you'd be amazed at the amount of respect they have for this great country of ours. And it really amazes me that here in our own country I can hear more disdain for our President and they way that we protect freedoms around the world than I ever heard when I was in the middle east. Are our memories so short that we have forgotten what Saddam Hussein has done with these weapons everytime he has had them? Ask the people of Iran, the Kurds, the Kuwaitis or even his own Iraqi citizens.

It I am not mistaken, the only people Saddam has attacked so far is other Islamics. So why would they, being the Islamics, be pissed at us.

CWUgirl


You are very helpful and provide a very rational and logical look at this issue from a very unique perspective... free of the male, matcho ego. Thanks for sharing and it's great to have a female's point of view. Keep it up, you help make this quality board.

CWU gal --

It's permanent, protocol, "Russians" (cap), gassing!!!!!!!!

B- (grade)

I am at a loss here.

Is the reason for all of this dialoge and exchange on the part of you CWU and you Twig, because you think we are there to capture the oil fields? Or is it because we want to kill Iraqis, or do you think it's because GWB is a war monger? Or what? Do either or both of you think that Sadam does not have WMD. Do either or both of you think that he does not commit atrocities on the Iraqi people?

What in (your minds) do you think prompted the president to undertake this task.

I'm not questioning your right to say what you want , I'm jus curious about your reasons for your beliefs.

Please don't take this post as a condemnation of your opinions just an attempt on my part to understand your reasoning. I respect your right to it and maybe I could learn something.


herm

Ya know you're making great points when your spelling comes in to question. Thanks!

Really......I think its all about the economy. Something to take our minds off domestic concerns. We don't need their oil. We don't care about the Iraqi people (IMO). The war is illogical and will increase global terrorism. That is a frightening prospect and something I don't think the Bush administration is giving enough thought to.

He is a ruthless dictator. Is he the worst? Absolutely not. I don't agree with the stance the US should be the lone ranger going in and imposing our will on other nation states.

What I am most worried about is what the result of this conflict is going to be on the US. Increased terrorism? What will our position in world politics be after? This could have very bad long range consequences.

And I'm just not seeing the upside.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="verdana,arial,helv">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Originally posted by John Lee Hookum:
<strong> CWUgirl


You are very helpful and provide a very rational and logical look at this issue from a very unique perspective... free of the male, matcho ego. Thanks for sharing and it's great to have a female's point of view. Keep it up, you help make this quality board.

There is a new documentary out entitled "Bolwing for Columbine" you ought to check it out. It just got an academy award for best documentary.

The documentary details the millions (YES, I Said MILLIONS) of innocent people that the U.S. has killed as part of its campaign against various regimes. Sadly, the rulers that the U.S. continually wants to get rid of are the very ones that the U.S. has put in power. Saddam and Osama are two good examples.

We think we had it bad because we lost thousands on 9/11. It was indeed a very sad day. We say "What a tyrant, Saddam has killed thousands, and he kills his own people". This pales in comparison to the attrocities that the U.S. has committed.

What the U.S. doesn't understand is how much and why much the world hates us. They hate us because of the damage we inflict. They hate us because we constantly have double standards. We had the worlds support after 9/11, but we've thrown that support away. Watch the news sometime, I'm not making this stuff up.

Pres. Bush was not even going to seek congressional approval for war, something that the constitution prevents. Finally, he decided that he better play by the rules and asked for approval. Sadly, congress gave approval cart blanche, the same situation occured during the Vietnam era.

Then, Pres. Bush was not going to seek U.N. authorization. Finally he caved and we've had the debate the past couple of months. Eventually however, he's decided to go against the U.N..

Canada and Mexico, two of our closest allies, have turned against the war. Look whats happening in England, top cabinet members are resigning. We simply don't have support.

The Bush' regimes arrogance is what pisses people off within the U.S. and outside of it. Most politicians evolve and GW's stance as though we're at the OK Corral (Ya' better be gone by sundown) just doesn't win support.

It's a sad time...

I don't see that people are negative, that that they're complaining, or that they haven't added anything. You read that in because you disagree. It's ok to disagree.

The debate is also not about giving support to those who are on the front lines, we're all thankful for that.

The questions becomes "should we be at war to begin with, especially at this time?" Should we be asking those on the front lines to give their lives at this time? Just because GW says something is NOT a good argument. People need to think about the issues, look at how the world is responding and not just get the spin from Ari Fleischer...

The question is also not about whether we can take out Saddam. That can be done, but then what will we do? We said we'd help out in Chechnya, but we haven't. We said we'd help out in Afghanistan, but we haven't done much there either. The truth is that the US goes in and blows countries up but doesn't rebuild them like it says it will.

Once again I ask the question, does the US government have a history of telling the truth the its citizens or should we be skeptical? The US is the best nation in the world but I think we can do better.

Uniting the Islamic world will have repercussions that we can't begin to imagine. Look what has happened in Israel, the fighting has been going on for 50 years. We're about to have the same chaos here.

Of course you don't...

This debate is that apparently all the most knowledgeable and in sighted people in our country right hear!! On this board!! Apparently our country is run by a bunch of uneducated morons completely going on their own personal agenda and who know absolutely nothing!

Pretty much sums up your debate???

You don't think that people read and hear all this crap being spewed? The decisions have been made! It's time to stand behind those decisions. You'll have your chance to change the person who makes those decisions in two years!

A skunk doesn't smell it's own stink....

So Twig, you have told me what has been done wrong, in your opinion.

So tell me what the answer is( in President Twig's opinion.)

herm

Let me see.....was the poll not clear enough?

Yet this post goes on and on and on.....with a verbal minority (as in the rest of the country, I might add) continuing to make irritating noises. Shaddap!! Go to sleep now, children. We have to get up early in the morning and go fishing.

I think we need to win world support for this cause. I think if we had a good case we could make the point and get that support.

I think that we need to let the inspectors continue their work. Add more inspectors if necessary. The more inspectors that are there, the better chances we have of finding what Saddam is hiding. Part two of that is that we continue to gain more intelligence should we need to go to war.

I think that we need to continue U-2 flights over the area and watch what the Iraqi's are doing. Once again, the more intelligence that we have, the better we'll be at finding the weapons without causing undo casualties.

Lastly, if in fact we determine that Saddam has been hiding or manufacturing weapons then let's take him out. Unfortunately, the Bush administration has been unable to convince the world that Saddam is such a threat.

I don't disagree that Saddam is a bad man, its the method that GW is using that I (and an overwhelming majority of the world) disagree with.

GW isn't the president of the world. I don't believe that it is the position of the US to dictate who gets to run other countries.

CWUgirl

Yes I think you should because it represents you very well. Thanks again for showing us what a healthy, balanced and rational point of view looks like.

Tight lines and good fishing.

JLH

Good point!!! And thanks for bringing a little humor back into this !!!

It has been interesting to watch the debate. It's great that we can debate something of this magnitude. We're about to embark on a new path that has never been tried in the US so I think it's healthy to discuss the issues, and not get personal, although it's sometimes hard to distinguish them sometimes.

Let's get back to fishing!!!

PMart and Fun5Acres,
Great words! And thanks for your support!! words of support truely are heard and FELT by our service men and women.

ETC(SW/AW) Reed
US Navy

Pmartin;

Nice use of the Code of Conduct. After six years of active duty I'm sure you're aware that the CoC was written for servicemembers that are in a position to be captured by the enemy. It was not meant as a patriotic call to arms.

I'm guessing that in the time frame you were active you spent some time in the gulf during the "hundred-hour Kuwaiti liberation." I'm surprised that given your feverish support of our administration you are only in the Inactive Ready Reserve and not a member of a Guard or Reserve unit. Surely there's a unit out there that can use your motivation.

I doubt you will find a single individual on this board that is not supportive of the men and women in the Armed Forces today. No one here wants to see a single person killed in this debacle. And that is precisely why some are speaking out against the current administration. They believe there is a better way to handle the situation.

Look at your own tag line; we're all amatuers here, and Bush is a professional.

Finally, when taking into consideration the number of countries in the world and the percentage of those that are backing us, it just makes me wonder if we really are doing the right thing. It's not because we're the only ones brave enough or strong enough. China and Russia alone are pretty formidable. And we're only talking Iraq here; we're already looking like we're taking a gun to a fist fight.

Here we go with another one!

Harley:

Yes six years ACTIVE, for some reason to you that is just not acceptable right!! I saw The gulf ... ( Somalia and Haiti) But since you have me pegged you probably knew that... And that was really nothing anyway right! Really just a neat camping trip. Just a couple of soldiers died.

And yes you're right it was only a hundred hours but for some reason the 100 hours sure did seem like six months to me!! And since it was just a measly 100 hours and apparently that's the respect you give to the soldiers that have fell during those mere 100 hours. You can kiss my lily white!!!! And since six years I guess means nothing!! Maybe you should tell that to the private that has been in a year and still standing in like a MAN!!! Willing to take round even for idiots like yourself!

You take the COC as you see it! I personally read a lot more into it than you. I saw and do see it as motivational...

I will never forget that I am an American fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

I also figured that other soldiers would feel the same! Since I am no longer one and since I did do my duty but that just not good enough for people like you!!

I wonder what the soldier's see when people like you say thing's like that? Hey, bravo I stand behind you %100. But, if you don't dedicate you life I'll be done with you after your tour! Heavan forbid you do six years!!!


But Harley for you to try and personally question what I have done and where I have been during my duty DOES NOT surprise me!!!! Where were you....During that measly 100 hours!!! Somalia, Haiti???


Typical Liberal!


For everyone else that does want to show some support. You can email Sodlier with this link... And not bi!ch about everything else and call it support..check this out.. Showyoursupport

Pmartin,


..."another one" what?

Geez, I merely pointed out that the CoC was intended for POWs. Meaning we shouldn't feel like prisoners here.

Don't know how you interpreted my post as an attack on your active duty time. I do think your motivation could be put to better use in a Guard or Reserve unit though, as opposed to the IRR.

How can you brand me as a "typical liberal" when I am simply exercising my right to question what the current administration is doing? After all, "I will never forget that I am an American fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. "

Like Japan and Germany, right?

Gutz,
Good post you beat me to it. Twig must be to young to remember who rebuilt Japan and Germany.

Don't forget who liberated and rebuilt France as well!

Everyone that is against the war and against the President has had there chance to voice there opinion and protest over the last few months. We have had a lot of big protest's around the country. I'm sure the President heard what you were saying and took that into consideration.

Now since the decision has been made. It is time we stop debating if it's the right or wrong decision and support our troops. Voicing out against the war does no good, it has no benefits, it's not going to change anything. No matter were you stand on this issue you should stop wasting time whining about the President and spend that time supporting the people that will be over there put there life's on the line. Showing your support for OUR troops can make a difference.

Lofty

Wow, voicing our opinions is useless? Sorry, interest group articulation does do good at anytime and can lead to policy change.

It isn't wasting time. It isn't whining. Supporting our troops maybe should include not putting them in harms way for an conflict that is so contrary to logic.

goharley

Thanks you for you contribution to this debate. Nice to hear from people that are free thinkers. Once you get use to biting that plastic, artificial stuff, it is harder to resist... especially if its followed with a beer chaser. So all you fishes out there... beware of the artificial baits(sound bites) that will be drifting our way, day in and day out, including this board for the months ahead.

Another suggestion would be to slow down on alcoholic beverages because they can contribute to a toxic brain, which reduces mental function, making it harder to see the bait.

All the name calling and attacks on patiotism, indicates that the people doing it are hooked on artificial and doesn't like the taste of the bait. Warning don't bite a cold hook.

Sobriety = Clarity

The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Pmartin

I didn't say everybody and why are you taking it so personal? By calling me a idiot(personal name calling) you are supporting my theory regarding the desperation to make others swollow the same offerings you so willingly gulp up. I invite you to continue your fight with that hook in your lip and not with me. Thank you.

Fact is Alcohol and the key board can trigger the angry agressive post that you just demonstrated. Not saying that I hit a trigger.

I take pride in my personal health(my choice) and try to keep my mind and body in top condition so that is why I personally don't drink.

In these times of stress I would suggest... while fishing is slow getting away from the TV and cable News and practicing Yoga or join a fittness club, anything that can free the mind and sprit so that we are able to cope better.

Relax, changing the World is not your job today. Tight lines and good wishes.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I didn't read all the pages with this thread, so maybe someone already noticed this, but isn't funny that those same UN countries that didn't think Saddam had weapons of Mass destruction are now passing out gas masks and sending checmial and biological specialists to Help in Iraq..... curious isn't it? (maybe THEIR motivation was oil???)

I think the problem with most people is that they only use one source of information to form their opinions and beliefs. The ones using Rush are pretty evident.

It's a known fact that most newpapers are liberal in nature, and that National Public Radio is pretty conservative. IMO, the key is to get information from as many sources as possible and then digest it all together before forming an opinion. Ideally, the opinion should be unique to you, and not one that is simply regurgitated from the media.

I think if people would take off their blinders and view the ENTIRE geopolitical scene these discussions wouldn't last as long. But then what would we do for entertainment when not on the river?

Free thinkers = Those who agree with you =Those who espouse A.N.S.W.E.R's tripe

That's even below you! (Barely)

***** ***** *****

It is good to know that the Majority of Americans support the forthcoming action. I saw a CNN or MSNBC (dang where did it go?) poll showing well over 65% support for the forthcoming action.

The time for Diplomacy is over. We are going to destroy the Chemical and Biological agents that are in the possesion of Saddam Hussein and his Regime. This is what UN 1441 said and that is what we shall do.

Iraq (and the World) will be a better place without Saddam Hussein.

Gutz -

Do the ends always justify the means?

We are about to attack a country that has not attacked us or its neighbors since the last war....we are undertaking this effort in direct defiance of the world organization WE CREATED...

Americans were also overwhelmingly in favor of our actions in Vietnam...history has proven that to be a mistake. If time proves this to be a mistake will you feel remorse for the families of the dead?

Some people (not you Gutz) seem to think this War stuff is all dancing bananas and clinking classes. Well...while your bananas are dancing and you are enjoying your toasts to war....remember...people (soldiers AND civilians) are bleeding, even dying. Try tempering your obvious glee at the prospect of war with the thought that our friends and family members are in harms way...

I propose UN resolution 666...US does what it wants when it wants and everyone else kisses our ring.

I noticed no one touched my comment about pre-emptive crime prevention with a ten-foot pole...so I'll throw it back up there...

"They might (have a different perspective).....

..but I doubt it would be so clouded a perspective that they would attack Britain because it could 'potentially' attack them in the future...I believe the Brits also have WMD...

It would be akin to arresting people because they are likely to commit a crime....pre-emptive crime prevention.

Some people probably thing that's a really good idea...."

H2O - That pretty much is what the 3 strikes law is. Once you are proven to be incorrigible you are put away for good. I would say that is pre-emptive.

So the question has been posed. What would it take for me to change my opinion of the upcoming action?

Tough question. I don't think there is any chance that we would undertake this mission if we couldn't prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Iraq is in violation of UN 1441 and the other resolutions (678?) which resulted in the Cease Fire back in 1991.

If, as some have imagined, speculated and fantasized, WWIII were to break out, to say the least that would be bad.

If we were to find no chemical or biological weapons, that would not look good. I believe that Saddam has them and intends to use them. Will this be enough to sway the "Left"?

If "Big Oil" were to profit grossly and not rebuild Iraq, that would certainly not fit what are intentions have been stated to be.

If the Pope Sainted Saddam, I might change my opinion. (no I'm kidding, I am an Atheist)

I could think of more ...

Ok, your turn ...

Right...the three strikes law...

...perhaps a more apt comparison, not pre-emptive of course because the crimes have already been committed.....

Much like you Gutz there are very few possible outcomes that could change my mind. The use of WMD would not be enough because I believe it is likely that he has them and will use them in defense of his country. I would expect nothing less.

He can't be proven to be any more 'Evil' than he has already proven to be....

It is my position that it is wrong to move forward without the consensus of, if not the world at least our own allies, and going to war without that is wrong. If our allies refuse to support the action then we have not presented a convincing enough argument to them...pointing a gun at their head does not count...nor does economic blackmail...

None of this crap matters though does it?? I hope my friends make it home alive and innocent civilians find a safe place to weather the storm....

I wonder what the 1.5 millon dead Iraqies would say about this war against Saddam. It ain't W.M.D's, it is for the people of Iraq. All the rest is window dressing.

"1.5 millon dead Iraqies (sic)"

You have some sort of source for that number??

It was related to me from a credible friend , the source was a Front Line documentry on PBS.

Guts

I didn't say drinking alcohol was below me, only suggested that some of us may enjoy it to much to not have a wet brain.. It's a problem for lots of people so don't feel singled out. Your neighbor could be an alcoholic.

Some of us that have been here long enough are aware that you like your beverage's but I didn't single you out. My point was, when drinking it can cause us to think in a way that we would'nt, if we had the clarity of mind. Maybe I'm reaching but, is that why they say don't drink and drive? Is it because it impairs? Don't let me stop you.. go ahead and have one or two. Anyway I think my previous post represents its self. Trying to add a little humor and at the same time, make a point.

What would be wrong with giving it a few more weeks or days to further disarm him.. getting UN support which brings more countries and their military and not leave our guys to do the bulk of the risk taking?

Uhhhhhh...?

I've spoken my last word against the war on this or any other thread...now is the time root for a quick ending with as little bloodshed as is possible....

I'd just as soon see all the war threads drop off the board at this point (closed even)...I intend to show my support with this as my last post on the subject.

I to will agree with that also H2o. The debate is over for me to, now that the dying has started. Already to late, just hope our family and friends come through OK and there is a quick end. It's very sad.

Rush Limbough is is pretty good but Micheal Savage (770 am) is better. Tic tock ,tic tock In any case I havent heard a lefty debate either of them yet and come out looking like anything else but a fool.

i think the protesting the war has gone too damn far already. give me a break! people have the right to opinion, but do you really think the president will pull out now? people need to support what is happening cause it's for real, and we need to support our troops. i really think it's bull**** that we have some stupid ass protesting ***gots burning the american flag . they need to get shipped in a pine box and buried in iraq. if you want to live in america, have some respect. god bless america and our troops! come home soon!