TWO FRICKIN RODS!!!

How in the hell can I Floss Salmon throwing 12ft leaders with two 10ft rods???

I don't know everything, but I am willing to learn new tricks

Salmo, I REALLY enjoy your posts so please don't let those desperate others keep you from posting. It is true that you are wasting your time with a select few but thats because all they can hear is their own voice and they are so impressed by their supposed cleverness. I saw Smalma on the news the other night.

Here is another problem with your idea CFM. The WDFW creates a budget every year that must be sumitted to the legislature. I think it was AuntyM (and if I am wrong here I will hear about it) who did the research and found the licenses and fees do not provide enough money for thier budget. The rest comes out of the general fund.

If there is some extra income it is confinsated for by receving less monies from the general fund. They don't get to keep the money to do what ever they one.

That is way it kind of bugs me when someone writes about some big campain by the gamies, and someone else replys with a comment like "extra income." Things just don't work like that.

Salmo -
Right On!!

Inspired in part by your various postings I opted to join the fray here a couple of years ago. I thought that our unique backgrounds, experiences and passions would bring something to the various discussions and debates. I had hoped that the end result would an increase in all of our collective knowledge. I had long believed that an educated user group was the best hope for enlightened management resource protection.

It has become clear to me that thinking was naive. As a result I find I'm posting less frequently and not responding to some of those that do.

Regarding two rods - want to bet how many of those posting on this discussion in favor of multiple rods actually cared enough to submit a proposal in WDFW's recent request for regulation proposals or take part in the North of Falcon salmon season setting process to lobby for an extra rod? I'm thinking ZERO!

I believe that if one is not part of the solution then they are part of the problem!

Just want to thank you for your time and willingness to share your knowledge.

Wishing you productive times on the rivers and tight lines.
Smalma

Well, when you get older the memory fades. :p

Salmo g. & Smalma,

I for one, sure hope neither of you quit or even reduce the number of your informitive and well thought out posts.

Not only do they portray your knowledge of the subject, they exhibit your great patience with us. Which by itself is a great example!

Thanks!



herm

So tell me Mr. Logic, (that's you, cfm)

Snagging is illegal, too, right? And WDFW enforcement is doing such a stellar job of preventing it aren't they?

So don't tell me there is anything logical about assuming WDFW enforcement will catch the cheats. I've been fishing long enough to know better.

Dan maybe it's because WDFW hearts not really into stopping snagging in the first place! It wasn't that many years ago (the 70's) that WDFW management was proposing to have a "snag" fishery in special dual use ponds at the Cowlitz Hatchery, or didn't you know that? One would think that it may be a little hard for WDFW to propose snagging at one place while writing you a ticket at another place!

You would truly be amazed what one finds when they do a compete check of WDFW records

CFM,

You would be amazed if you did a complete check of the records of any government agency.

For that matter the records of any organization involving more than 10 people.

It is human nature to do stupid things, especially in larger groups. Certainly the WDFW is not immune to this.

There is nothing special about WDFW as far as these things go. Yet for some reason you they have earned your unending ire and that you spend countless hours trying to discredit them.

Is this really a satisfying thing for you to do?

I know many of us on this board get tired of it . . .


At any rate, if you really are set on sniping at the WDFW at least share the love with the rest of government.

Just my $0.02

Geoduck

Geoduck

I hate to tell you this, but I would not be "amazed" at all about other "government agencies" records! I would almost bet you money that there isn't a single person on this board that has done any more public discloser request then I have. Nothing amazes me anymore about our state or federal agencies!

I see that you are relatively new on our board, so maybe you haven't had the opportunity over the last 3 years to read many of my earlier posts. If you had followed them, you would understand why I sometimes have a problem with WDFW and their policies. I believe that I have a right to complain about issues that I have personal knowledge of. I have also worked with many WDFW staff over the years and have repect for many WDFW staff.

I have been contacted by several WDFW employees over the years to "blow the whistle" on some pretty shady deals that some WDFW staff had been involved in. Maybe that's just one reason why so many of them either fear or respect what I have to say today. When I was the president of a large sport fishing group (the FOC) lots of people turned to me and our group with information about wrong doings in our fishery management. When I make a statement about a wrong doing in WDFW, you can bet your last dollar that I have already done my homework, and I can back up whatever I say!

If you don't believe me, just ask Salmo G! He knows me, and he also knows that I always do my homework!

Soon, I will be writing a thread that will be an update to our "older members" on our board concerning our public access and WDFW. When you get done reading it, feel free to come back and criticize me again. Until then, you will just have to take me and my positions for whatever you want to.

Cowlitzfisherman

Jerry and others,

Thanks. I continue to contribute here because I'm led to believe that I can reach and inform anglers who might never otherwise get answers to questions or even think about fish biology and management issues. I've been around the block enough times to know I'm not reaching those who've already made up their minds. Although I think there's a bit of teacher in me. Few things are as satisfying as reaching through a clouded mind and having someone say, "Aha!! I understand it now, and it is very different than I always thought it was." I don't mean to sound like I'm always right and others are always wrong. I'm a long time student of biology, ecology, fish management, law, Native Americans, and fly fishing. I've been in the business in various ways nearly 30 years I guess.

I'm a good fly caster and bait caster - childhood bass fishing, but a lousy spin caster, although I've heard it only takes 15 minutes to learn! Yikes! Guess I'm still waiting to discover the miracle 15 minutes, as I almost single-handedly keep Mepps in business during coho season. Thanks to CFM, I've learned to use less expensive jigs, too. I've been able to provide a few good fishing and technique tips, but among this BB membership, I'm more the student than teacher in that regard.

I enjoy the give and take of spirited debate, but I don't have any use for threads that degenerate into personal attacks and irrational arguments. That's what pushed my button on this one, I guess. I don't think I'm thin-skinned. If I was, I doubt I would have been posting here since nearly day 1.

You're fortunate to be up in Smalma's territory. We're very long time acquantances, and I have a lot of respect for his professionalism. I really appreciated it when he joined the BB.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo

No one wants you to quit posting on the board, especially me! Who else can call you a "turkey" and not have you take it as a personal insult or attack?

But sometimes you push people a little bit too far with what you have written! As just a couple examples, you starting out by saying;

That probably was not the best way to get everyone's attention. We have known each other now for over a decade, so we can get on each other pretty hard without offending one another. That's something that a lot of board members on this board do not know or understand.

But calling other members "pathetic wusses " puts a lot of members on the defensive side of this issue. Just because other members have disagreed with you and Smalma agencies point of view; certainly doesn't justify you calling or to insinuate that they are "pathetic wusses.

You also said;
Just because both you and Smalma both work for state or federal fish agencies, and have strong views that represent your own agencies views; that certainly doesn’t mean that the public (the anglers) all have "collective ignorance" views. It's really not the angler's lack of knowledge that is at issue here, it's the fact that many anglers may be disagreeing with the state or federal agencies point of view.

You said;
Just because you or Smalma may have a "degree" in biology or in fish management; that doesn't mean that they are anymore knowledgeable or better informed then a person who has actually had "30 years" of real life experience. In fact, I personally think it's the other way around. I am sure that you will disagree, but we are each entitled to our opinion.

This is probably one of the main reasons why we have so damn many attorneys today! It takes an "attorney" anymore to get the agencies to understand why us "common folks" are not being heard! It's your guy's way or it's no way at all!!

Do you have any documentation that supports this theory, or is this just your personal opinion?

Salmo, you know that is not really true, so why even make such a statement? Did you already forget about the WDFW and Cascade Aqua Fish Farm fiasco? Or why NMFS listed all Lower Columbia "chinook" as threaten, and still allows the entire unmarked run of wild "fall chinook" to be harvested. NMFS listed ALL lower Columbia chinook, (not just spring chinook) so why is NMFS allowing WDFW to stop all "fall chinook" from being allowed to spawn and recover back in their "natural" habitat and spawning grounds in the Cowlitz? I can keep going on if you need a few more "examples" of how well the "agencies" are doing there mandated jobs "according to law and policies that govern them!

In the real world, not everyone can be paid to sit around in meetings all day long and kiss each others butts. How many meetings have both you and I set in on when nothing ever gets accomplished? If a person doesn't have the same "reasoning" as you or I do, does that mean that there criticism is "foolish"?

Can you explain that one a little more clearly for us? Everything thing that I have read in this thread simply talked about a person getting there limit with 2 rods and then quit fishing. So how are you using "2 fish plus 2 fish equal 5 fish" as an example?

Salmo, you know that I have always been right up front with you so I will not change now. So the way I read your last post, it appears to me that you are asking your supporters and followers to jump in ask you not to leave. I may be wrong, but that is how I am reading your last post. No one had asked you to "stop posting" or to leave, so why would you have brought that up? I would have thought that you would simply not reply back to posts like these if you didn't expect to get some heat back from the others who fill differently than you do.
---------------------------------------------

Smalma
Smalma, agency people never fail to amaze me! Where and how do you think a "proposal" gets started? If proposals can't openly be discussed as they are being done here, how in the devil do you expect any thing to ever get to the proposal stage? This thread as allowed people to see the pro and the cons on using 2 rods, so why are you opposed to letting fishermen debate the merits of this issue? People would much rater debate issues here before they send them off to WDFW to review as a final "proposal". The only problem that I see occurring here is that the agencies are not getting there usual way of "crafting" a proposal into the fashion that that may prefer it to be before such a proposal is officially proposed.

BW

you have stated;

Smalma
I am surprised that you have not yet corrected this misinformation that was given by BW. As a WDFW employee, you should know that WDFW has many different special fund accounts that are set up to be used only for special things, and can not be used for any other purposes other then what it was delegated for. It was my understanding that WDFW kept these accounts separate from their general funds, and that they are NOT deducted from the annual general fund account that they receive each year from the governor.

The money from a 2 rod raffle could easily be set up to be transferred into a special WDFW account without being mandated to go back into the WDFW "general fund" account.

I have never heard where the government has "deducted " any special funds accounts from the WDFW general funds account.

If I am wrong, please tell me where I am wrong!


Cowlitzfisherman

You wrote- "They love that stuff... it's like kitten cocaine."

Man, I'm a pusher! My cat (a tiny fifteen pound beast) Is hooked. He has a bad habit. It keeps me fishing constantly, to appease his meow jones. That 'splains it! As soon as I get the fish out of the cooler in the truck he works me like a crack-wh@#$ for his fix. Too much is never enough. (Notice how I stayed out of the two rod arguement?)
Jeffro

http://slacktide.org:88/~dan/pics/kitty/Isis/Isis_salmon.JPG [/QB][/QUOTE]

Oops-
The above was supposed to go to another message, not the botttom of this. Sorry. Please ignore.

CFM,

The wusses comment was in a post that concluded: t.i.c., meaning, tongue in cheek. I’m sorry you didn’t catch it; perhaps others did not as well, altho there were hints all along the way with my promotion of sport gillnetting and blasting caps as fishing lures.

I stand by my collective ignorance statement. Note, I don’t call anyone an ignorant person; we all make ignorant statements from time to time, and I think many posts in this thread contain examples.

Yes, I’m educated in fisheries and other things, but I’ve also been an angler for more than 40 years, so I’ve got my expertise covered on all sides! I do agree that some educated people act woefully uninformed at times, and you and I have had to deal with them far more than should be necessary.

I don’t have documentation at home or even at the office that proves two rods will catch the harvest allocation sooner, but I have access to such information. Do you really need to see it? It is a principle of fisheries management that there is a direct relationship, usually linear, between standing stock, effort, CPUE, and harvest. That’s the thumbnail rationale for saying that a two rod regulation would result in a harvest allocation being achieved sooner. Yes, there are also exceptions; this is a discussion of generalities, not a specific fishery.

True. Agency personnel are supposed to do their jobs consistent with law, regulation, and policy. Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen 100% of the time, as indicated by your example. That is one of the reasons I’m such an avid supporter of citizen watchdogs like you. You, and others like you, help keep agencies more honest and responsive to the citizens we serve. Yeah, it shouldn’t be necessary, but where there are pluralist interests and politics, it is necessary.

I didn’t say criticism is foolish. I mean unreasoned and unreasonable criticism is foolish and a waste of time. There is no logical response to unreasoned arguments, so agencies end up blowing it off. Anyone would unless they enjoy or are forced to engage in useless and pointless debate.

The 2 fish plus 2 fish equals 5 fish is my analogy to posts suggesting that a two rod regulation would have no effect on others aspects of fish management, such as season length, after Smalma and I explained that it would. It’s OK to disagree with me on that, but I’m not letting someone off by labeling it BS. I want the critic to post a reasoned, intellligent, and persuasive argument proving his opinion correct and mine wrong. Reasoned debate like that can be informative and educational to this BB. Mudslinging and calling BS and one another a clueless idiot neither informs nor educates. It simply alienates me. Which leads to your last comment about my posts: I was responding to your post, not asking supporters to rally ‘round me. The statement is what it is. If you and others whose opinions I respect (even if I disagree occasionally) think I’m wasting my time posting here, I’d seriously consider quitting. My garage sure needs cleaning. And I need to tie some flies.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

I was surprised to see this debate still going on...didn't think anyone cared this much...hmmm

Salmo

You, like me, will never quit!

Sometimes I feel like Charlton Heston…holding up my fishing rod…and saying over my cold dead body!

We both care too much to let criticism effect either of our views on or about our fishery. Thanks for taking the time to clarify what your post said. Knowing you, the way that I do, I appreciate your honesty in your reply.

Maybe a few other board members can follow our ongoing battle to keep fishermen aware of what is really going on!

grandpa…. A lot of us care more then you may think!

Cowlitzfisherman

The first time I posted it did not post every thing I wrote so have paitence and read the whole unabriged post as it was intended.


I go away for a couple of days and all hell brakes lose. I was just reading the post from the last couple of days and I noticed something that I want to address.

All comments to the 2-rod stamp post (except mine) and to most regulations questions on this board seem to concentrate on salmon and steelhead. I under stand that these two species are the reason most of us continue to draw breathe everyday but they are not the only fish out there. Many people in this state love fishing for trout and walleye in lakes. I assumed (that’s how you make a ass out of u and me) that when the talk of two rods came up we were talking about lake fishing. In my post I even mentioned that California does not allow two rods in the rivers and I may have misspoke about the salt. I will have to check on that and get back to you.


Anyone can make an argument about why not to use two rods in the rivers and even salt when we are targeting salmon. In fact anyone, and many at the local collage I attend do, can make argument against fishing at all for salmon and steelhead.

What I want to talk about is fishing in lakes with two rods and nothing else. California has a two-rod stamp that is good on the lakes and is used by everyone. If you are caught with out it you get a hefty fine and they take your pole. To say that it is a enforcement problem is unreasonble. Here we can carry our license in our pockets. In some states they call that an "enforcement problem" and require you to pin it to your cloths above the waist.


As far as lakes go fish are not allocated the same. We are mostly talking about planted trout and holdovers. They are going to plant a certain amount of fish and that’s it. Catching them is up to you.

I would also like to address what I believe is a misconception by most people, even those in the "business”. First I have to say that I have been trolling with multiple rods in lakes for trout for about 25 years on and off (no trout on camp lejeune) I was taught by my grandfathers when not fly fishing. Trolling with more then one rod does in no way catch more fish then trolling with only one rod. Now stop and read more before you crash a server with you reply’s. Yes you can get a double hook up, hell my son and me have had 4 on at once. Hooking a fish and landing a fish are very different things. First you have to find the fish then you have to pick the right lure then you have to present it in the right way then at the right depth..etc etc etc... Get the point. I have never successfully landed more then two fish at a time. Now using more then on rod will help you do all these things faster, maybe. But I can guarantee that the one lure the fish want on any given day will be the one you only have one of anyway!!!!!!!!. What I am trying to say is that first you have to have a good day to fish then you can catch fish. Having two rods in the wrong place with the wrong bait at the wrong depth is still a good skunking. Besides you can only catch your limit once a day. After that (as i have been told lately) you have to stop fishing.


Now a little word about funds, just because the state only gives the wdsfg so much money does not mean that if the wdfg can come up with a way to get more funds for them selves that the state won't let them. Remember that by not asking the answer is always No.


Tell me what you think about a 2-rod stamp on lakes only whit lures only that funnels all the money back in to the wdsfg. Ok now you can crash a server

geez i think i'll take my megger next time i hit the river

Or, just getting tired of the criticizm? I call BS! Does the tax on gear, gas, bait, boats, licenses(boats/trailers and personal)and every other fishing/hunting related sale make up for the funds used from the general fund? BS! Spin , spin ,spin. If in private bussiness I cant turn a profit, I have few options. Government creates it's own costs. And instead of cutting costs, they increase funding, and find very visible ways to say the kitty's empty. Not all government, not all the time. But i'm watching it happen every day. So cry me a river with your "no one understands the government" . Take a look at the big picture in F/G management, the numbers of the resource, and where they go.

I dont see every person who works for the government as "evil". In fact it's the oppisite. I feel the actions of the policy makers are not aligned with the honest Joe that works within the system. And they(policy makers) dont represent the people of this state, rather thier own politicl future. I say that because at every point the public oppinions that should be part of the criteria for the policies, are shut out and portrayed as ignorant. You can do all the legwork to help establish workable policies, only to be sideswiped by another agenda in the end.

But dont be discouraged, I honestly believe it will be the people within the system(like yourself) that will be the leaders in turning it around.