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#287208 - 01/10/05 09:22 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25028
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
grandpa,

Have you heard if this is a federal-tribal deal? I thought I heard that it was a state-tribal deal...

It would violate state law if it were a state-tribal deal, and I'm pretty sure that the feds would have no authority to go trading state property (which steelhead are) to the Quinaults, even if they wanted to.

Remind me to talk to you about this on the conference call tonight.

Fish on...

Todd

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#287209 - 01/10/05 09:32 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1843
Loc: brier,wa
Todd..talked to our moderator this afternoon and he told me that. We better ask for clarification.
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#287210 - 01/10/05 11:15 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
jnews Offline
Egg

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 4
Loc: Brier, WA
This is a bunch o' crap! I just sent an email to all parties with the dfw and the commission that I could access on the wdfw site. I hope everyone reading these posts is doing the same!!

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#287211 - 01/10/05 11:27 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1843
Loc: brier,wa
Sounds like WDFW Region 6 personnel are calling BS on this story. They say there was no trade for salmon. Of course , the could not admit that since it would be illegal. Perhaps and back room wink and hand shake would be more likely. They say they are going to explore more sports opportunity..I think to pacify us. and shut us up before the cat is out of the bank.
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#287212 - 01/10/05 11:49 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
Harbor-Hog Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 139
Loc: Aberdeen, Wa
I never did like pasifiers. We need to get more eyes looking at this stuff. I wonder what "Joe Public" would think of 100's of dead salmon left to die on the river bank because all they wanted was the eggs or the bucks were to colored up. You never see this type of stuff make any sort of headlines. I am all for any type of protest and or stand. I am not supprised that the WDFW didn't admit to any wrong doing. They've got a simple answer for that, and that is to allow sprotfisherman to have a kill fishery for wild steelhead. Yeah, that's what we were aiming for! Anyways I've emailed every day and pass the word on to anyone and everyone.

Harbor-Hog

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#287213 - 01/11/05 12:11 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12425
Very interesting thread folks.

Not trying to muddy the waters here, but here's one more twist.

I attended a meeting last month where one of the hot-button issues was "bycatch" of non-target late-run wild Satsop coho in a December gillnet fishery supposedly targeting early-run winter steelhead. Those who brought the issue to the table called BS on the idea that this is a legitimate net fishery for steelhead.

Thru Dec 21, the nets had been deployed 17 days in December!

It was argued that since so few steelhead return to the system in that time frame, why did WDFW allow such an intense tribal net fishery? The implication of course was that this was really just a tribal salmon fishery in disguise since the major species migrating thru the Chehalis corridor during that time frame is wild late-run coho, mainly of Satsop origin. Moreover, the harvest from this covert salmon fishery is one that slips under the radar screen since there is no official salmon allocation set for the month of December.

When asked why such a travesty is allowed to occur, WDFW responded that the tribes historically have not been getting their half of the steelhead harvest (supposedly 66:33 dominated by non-tribal harvest), and they needed more opportunity to catch their fair share. The tribes have already maxed out their netting schedules for the rest of the winter/spring. That's why they got extra time in December.

When asked how many salmon were projected to be harvested as bycatch in this fishery, WDFW stated something like 65 fish. Anybody believe that?
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#287214 - 01/11/05 12:44 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
larryb Offline
The Rainman

Registered: 03/05/01
Posts: 2347
Loc: elma washington
i started plunking for steelhead on the chehalis when i was 13 i am now 58 back then the best fishing was december and January we usually stop fishing around the middle of February the last year before netting there was over 60 steelhead caught out of my plunking boat 4 years later there was 6 fish caught while the decline is not all the fault of netting it is a major cause there use to be a late run of big hook-nose silvers in february in the satsop there are now gone what i am getting at is if there is no steelhead in december i say they have been netted out.
the chehalis was the number two river system for steelhead year after year with the skagit number one. there should be state records from punchcards back then
with the netting this year it will become dead river system for steelhead which it looks like what the state wants
_________________________
don't push the river it flows by itself
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
FREE PARKER DEATH TO RATS

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#287215 - 01/11/05 01:11 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12425
Larry

You hit the nail on the head.... the early December steelhead have been nearly wiped out. There just aren't very many steelies that time of year. And here's the state granting the tribes permission to drive the last nail into the coffin.

It begs a few questions. Why would the tribes even bother "steelhead" fishing during that timeframe if there are so few steelies to net? Is it even worth their while? Why in the hell would they need 17 days to net what few steelhead remain in that early component?

The only thing that makes it worth their while is a late run of prime wild coho. If this trend keeps up, those late coho will be next to hit the coffin.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#287216 - 01/11/05 02:21 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
JJ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 203
Loc: redmond, WA
My email was sent.

I saw this email response from Phil Anderson from the WDFW.

"Thank you for your comments, my response is intended to provide you with some information that you may not have and respond to several of your "messages".

1) The 2003-04 run size of wild steelhead into the Chehalis system was 18,796, since 1982-83 the only run size that came close to this number was in 1986-87 when the run size was 17,554.
2) The escapement goal for the Chehalis system is 8,600, the 2003-04 escapement was 15,825
3) The 2004-05 run size is forecasted to be 13,148, the third highest in 22 years.
4) The state/tribal management plan estimates a 2004-05 escapement of 10,909.
5) The Quinault Indian Nation's (QIN) share of wild steelhead reserved by treaty with the United States is 2,274, the state/tribal management plan predicts a QIN harvest of 1,954.
6) The model the state and tribal comanagers use to estimate the tribal catch was updated this year and now uses a catchability coefficient based on the most recent two years actual fishery results.
7) The recreational fishery is predicted to harvest 6,757 (6,658 hatchery+99 wild) fish in 2004-05, the QIN fishery is predicted to harvest 3,963 (1,954 wild + 2,009 hatchery).

The tribal fishery schedule encompasses more days than recent years however they are not predicted to catch more than their share of the harvestable wild fish. As a result, we have no basis to challenge the schedule QIN has authorized the tribal fishers to fish. "


Not sure how the last part can be true. They will fish more days but not catch more fish that doesn't even pass the straight face test.
JJ

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#287217 - 01/11/05 02:34 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12425
When I think about it now, there's hardly a month all year that the Chehalis does not see a tribal gillnet.

Winter steelhead from winter thru spring. Spring kings from spring thru early summer. Summer steelhead all summer. Fall kings, silvers, and chum.

Seriously, is there even ONE month that the river system is net-free?
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#287218 - 01/11/05 09:12 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
DrifterWA Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4564
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Want to cut down on the "incidental or incidentally" caught fish???

If steelhead is the "target fish", let's say in December.......then any "incidentally caught fish", native coho, must go to food banks. This at least would take the profit motive out of the "non-targeted" fish.

This would be for both tribal and non-tribal gill net fishermen.

Why should gill net fishermen be allowed to keep and profit by catching a "non-targeted" fish, when the thousands of people that are sport fishing......must release, can't even take "out of the water for a picture" protected fish....ie wild steelhead, chinook(Wynoochee and Satsop).

Grrrrrrrr to Department Fish and Wildlife for allowing sales of incidentally caught commerical fish, for sure in past years, but working hard to see that "sport caught" have more and more restrictions. All this at a time in history when more and more people are willing to spend 10's of thousands of dollars, just to be able enjoy a pasttime. Just doesn't make sense!!!!!!!!!

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older would take longer"

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#287219 - 01/11/05 11:31 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
Slab Quest Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/17/01
Posts: 1638
Loc: Mukilteo or Westport
The email posted by Double Haul was forwarded to Bill Freymond, Region 6 biologist, and this is his response:


The e-mail you attached is not true!! I have no idea where he/she got
the idea that we're trading steelhead for salmon, or that the wild steelhead
run is not meeting escapement goal in the Chehalis. In fact, we will be
discussing a couple of proposals at the SH/CT P.A.G. meeting on Wednesday to
either allow some harvest or extended catch and release opportunity on the
Chehalis and Humptulip stocks this winter. Look forward to talking to you
Wednesday about this issue. Bill
_________________________
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#287220 - 01/11/05 01:02 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9159
Loc: everett
Double Haul's email said this about the run size " Many of the rivers do not meet their “Healthy” escapement goals". Not everybody is in agreement with WDFW about escapement goals, especially "healthy" escapement goals.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#287221 - 01/11/05 02:24 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
Homer2handed Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 1395
Loc: DEADWOOD
I’ll report back what happens at SCPAC meeting on Wednesday (12th), I’ll be getting back late Wednesday night so look for something by 9:00pm
_________________________
Brian

[img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:VeLkiG2PPCrjzM:www.bunncapitol.com/cookbook[/img]

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#287222 - 01/11/05 08:43 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12535
What’s up with the numbers in JJ’s post of the response he received from Phil Anderson at WDFW? The expected run size for 2004/2005 is 13,148 steelhead. The state / tribal estimated escapement for 2005 is 10,909. Yet the expected non-treaty harvest is 6,757, and the expected treaty harvest is 3,963, for a combined harvest of 10,720. With a run size forecast at 13,148, minus a harvest of 10,720, leaves an escapement of 2,428. It looks to me like the state / tribal estimated escapement is in for a very rough season.

Sound fishery management doesn’t require absolutely precise run forecasts or even precise escapement estimates. However, it does require better arithmetic than the above scenario presents.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

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#287223 - 01/12/05 03:04 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12425
Quote:
Originally posted by Salmo g.:

Sound fishery management doesn’t require absolutely precise run forecasts or even precise escapement estimates. However, it does require better arithmetic than the above scenario presents.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.
Good pick up on the "Montesano Math" Salmo.

While the tribes were busy netting all of those paper steelhead in December, it should interest you all to know that Bingham Creek Hatchery on the Satsop barely made its egg take for late run coho. Hard to imagine the wild late coho escapement fared any better either.

That's a MAJOR problem when armchair managers make all the decisions based on paper fish. Sometimes I wonder if these guys ever get out in the field (whoa, now there's a concept) to see with their own eyes what's really going on out there.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#287224 - 01/12/05 10:10 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2758
Loc: Marysville
Salmo -
As I read the email from Anderson I understood the wild run size to be 13,148 fish with a QIN wild fish harvest of 1,954 and a recreational harvest of 99 wild fish (must be . The rest of the harvest was hatchery fish. While the numbers still don't add up - there are a thousand or so unaccounted for wild fish (expect they are being taken by one of the other tribes that fish the system).

FNP - Talking about "fuzzy math" - you reported that the Bingham hatchery just barely made its coho escapement. A review of WDFW hatchery escapement report showed that 10,200 coho (8,813 adults and 1,387 jacks) were trapped at the hatchery. Of these 1,223 were spawned. According to my math that would indicate that there were more than 8 times as many fish returning to the hatchery than needed. If that is just barely meeting brood stock needs we need to re-evaluate almost all our salmon fisheries.

In emotionally charged issues this business of throwing around mis-leading information does not help the discussion or your cause. The making of a valid point is helped when it is support by logic and sound data - not BS.

By the way as I read the sport regs on the system anglers can fish for steelhead/salmon every month but 1 (May) and sturgeon year-round.

Tight line
S malma

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#287225 - 01/12/05 10:39 AM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
bodysurf Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/28/01
Posts: 324
Loc: olympia
bingham made their early coho numbers but haven't made the late coho numbers yet and they're are getting worried they won't ....seems to be a lot less late coho than last year in the chehalis......

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#287226 - 01/12/05 03:03 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12425
Smalma

I will stand by my assertion.. they got their last LATE RUN fish to meet goal yesterday. I believe that qualifies as just barely.

Plenty of early run fish... that wasn't the point of my post.

Peace!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#287227 - 01/12/05 03:05 PM Re: Upset about Grays Harbor netting schedule??
RICH G Offline
PP Resident Nostradamus

Registered: 11/05/00
Posts: 2902
Loc: Land of the Lost
You know what SMALMA I say what I think of your orginization all the time on this board.

I wish I could say what I think of you but I would get tossed out of here in a hurry.

The people on this board are tired of all the curruption and back door deals, the guesses and fraud on run sizes and escapement, the favortism of comercial interests and so on with every part of our fish and shelfish resource.

The state of Washington/tribes, (same entity when it comes down to it) will not be happy untill all wild fish are gone and they can comercially harvest as many fish as they want without those pesky wild fish to get in the way.
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www.olympicproject.com

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