Hank, why do you have to pussyfoot around all of these question?

Its called political payback. Police and Fire Unions supported Walker and they are exempt from this Legislation. The others didn't, and were long time Democratic supporters and are now paying the political price.

Why is it that no one gave a [censored] about Public Employee Unions or Unions period until the economy hit the toilet? WTF did Unions do to create this recession? Nothing, but yet they are as popular as Wall Street and lets face it folks, Wall Street (Corporations) is the largest reason the economy went into this deep recession. Who's making money now? Who got baild out? Yeah, its just wrong that some friggin teacher makes about $47k a year. Wow all those yachts down in Elliot Bay must belong to teachers and all the other rich public employees.

Working class folks, which probably fits most of you, are still suffering, but yet some have drank way to much of the mis-direction Koolaid that wants you to believe that your suffering because of some other working stiff who happens to belong to a Union.

98% of poll responders reported that Hankster can't answer a direct question.

98% also felt that Hankster makes up 100% of the figures he posts.

However, 2% of those polled responded that Liberal Alien 'Muslin' Communists use the 'innermets' to confuse Patriotic Christian Americans and trick them into inviting the 'Aunty Christ' into their single wide trailers.

It's easy to blame the little guy making a $hit income with relatively meager benefits, while the banker who was already making $200 million a year runs away with $50 million of money given to him by the federal government so he can go and stash it in a Cayman Islands account, tax free. The problem is people like Hankster and JohnQ have been brainwashed into protecting the ultra-rich like it's their job, and then turn around and blame the unions (and academia) for causing various demises in our country.

Hitler Reacts - To the 14 Wisconsin Democrat State Senators

Wow, how is the UAW working for the auto industy? I guess we have to blame the rich for there problems..

I betcha yah learnt that from one of your Socialist Kollege Profs, too bad you were Bobbin at the time. When you grow out of your "Short Pants" and actually get a job/pay taxes, then come back and spout that Class Warfare Crap. Now go away yah little wet behind the ears piss ant.

Just a comment about class warfare, if I may:

This is a term invented by the powerful to continue to beat down the less powerful. Whenever the less powerful stand up and say, "hey wait a minute, I am getting screwed", the powerful immediately accuse them of class warfare and beat them back down. Kind of like what is going on in Iran, only their actually killing the people who speak out.

My primary biatch with this guy isn't that he wants concessions. I can tell you that a lot of publically unionized employees have already made concessions, many of which are in mid contract. But, those concessions were made at the bargaining table and that is where Walker belongs.

Walker simply doesn't want to sit down at the contract table and negotiate, he wants to bust the unions, and a good part of that is still political payback.

I think the right to unionize and bargain over wages and working conditions is as American as apple pie. The ability to unionize and bargain in this country is what has created a middle class; a middle class that is slowly but surely slipping away.

It's wrong to bargain for wages and then vote in and support those who support your union but it is ok to donate gazillions to influence (say) banking, drilling, or any other industry?

There seems, from here, to be room to actually negotiate increased worker contributions; if the Gov really wanted to negotiate.

I do't see what the Gov simply doesn't do what Gregoire did here; ignore the contract her office negotiated. Claim WI is broke and this is all that they can do.

Hank

You're right. My complaint was for the folks who think it is a mortal sin for unions to bankroll candidates who support them but it is somehow ok if "I" or business "X" bankroll a politician who supports my goals.

From here, it looks like WI has some pretty cushy bennies.

But, my dad worked his career for CA and always said that the employees (back then) traded high pay (and abuse from the public) for various benefits.

Hank, it's up to the representatives at the bargaining table to negotiate contracts and then be accountable to the people who elected or appointed them. Sending raises to a vote is not bargaining. You can't bargain with an entire population, that is why we elect representatives. But, I know you understand that.

Negotiating a contract is a complicated process of determing interests then playing games for too long a time. Too much time is wasted protecting positions in the event of later litigation. Two contracts ago I met with the CEO and got him to agree to negotiate off the record so each side could get their direct interests out on the table without fear of losing protection later. He went for it. Up to that point we had been at the table for three months. We settled the contract several meetings later. We followed the same procedure for the next contract and finished in three days. Had we not been able to reach agreement we could have gone on the record and played the games.

You have to be active in the Legislature to protect the interests of your membership. That is way the Legislature works, like it or not. Lots of interests are represented there, some of them counter to your own, so you have to be there or get rolled over. Our group actually supported members across both aisles. We also understood reality and sought incremental changes over many years. We had respect among the Legislators who didn't agree with us because of our approach. We knew that you had to maintain friendships no matter what. Got to think long term.

Your right, California is out of control and the retirement medical benefits alone are going to cost many billions. Even as a labor representative, I can see that. My retirement system is fully funded, doesn't have nearly the benefits, but I feel much more secure in a fully funded system than one that is woefully underfunded.

At least in my career there were lots of things outside of maoney that made the job not only worthwhile but worth staying.

Couple questions about where the various states are.

I know that in WA at least PERS1 is not fully funded; the Leg decided not to make contributions. They used that money to keep taxes low or fund other programs, etc. I think that this situation has gone on in many states and in corporations with large pension bills. The workers/unions are getting blamed for greed. Why is it not the Legislature or Corporate heads who made the twin choices to agree to the costs and then not fund them fault?

That, of course, does not get us out of the current problem.

Thanks.

CLARUS POLL:
64% OF VOTERS OPPOSE GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE UNIONS
WISCONSIN FIGHT SPOTLIGHTS ISSUE

So Hank, would you feel diffrently if 64% favored the unions? No,then WTF was your reason for posting this? Should we govern by taking polls and then swinging the way the polls go? So when Bush's popularity was so low should we have dumped him.


I seem to remember you and others tellign us polls don't matter - when the result was opposite of what Faux told you to believe. In fact many of you RWWJ were convinced one of Bush's strengths was he didn't pay any attention to polls. Or are polls only of use hwen you agree with them?

I would like to know just what part union wage earners played in the economic down turn?
Do these middle class workers own any responsibility for their states economic situation?

Heard today that the Gov wants the Dems back so they can also vote on Legislation to give dairy farmers a tax break. Seems really odd that a state running such a high defecit would give anyone a tax break, but I guess that is politics.

I like polls, like I like looking at a tide book or a thermometer and like the tides and the temperature, polls go up and down.

Economicaly it's not really any different then what hit the private sector causing the current recession. Just way too much money being spent out that was "promised" as pensions. The auto industry was taking all of their profits and paying it to ex-employees that no longer add any value to their product. Same thing here and in other states.

Where I work we call it double dipping. I work with a lot of retired public sector workers that are earning a paycheck and also getting their pensions from their public service job that they retired from at the age of 40 something. So the tax payer is paying this persons pension at the cost of being able afford a replacement worker to maintain whatever service that individual performed in their public sector job. And we will continue to do so for another 30 to 40 years.

The baby boomer generation is doing their absalute best to screw the younger generations. I guess we are just here to pay for their retirement as we watch our savings and investments struggle. But at least we've got jobs. Those just entering the workforce are the one's who are going to get royally screwed as the benefits I enjoy are going to be non existant for them. And the jobs too probably.

As for the issue at hand I am against unionized public workers. It basterdizes the political process. Vote for me and I'll give you a raise and hire your children. Vote for my opponent and he'll destroy you and your family. Some call this fair. I call it buying an election.

As for the partisons here I wish folks would wise up and realize both political parties are fighting over the wealth that has already been created and thus creating an environment where it is virtually impossible to create new wealth. It's called an "old" or "mature" economy and means an end to the America we grew up in. If you want to become wealthy by working hard and saving and investing and then passing it on to your children your best bet is to move to China.

And just in case I wasn't clear above both parties suck!!!! I don't have millions to give to my favorite candidate so I will continue to be no politicians constituant!!!!

Obama is much to busy cowtowing to wall street and the business community to step in and help those who actualy got him elected. I've been saying for years I'm a conservative without a party. My little island is starting to fill up with my liberal friends!!!

But hey-At least the politicians are getting rich!

The main problem is pension funds are invested in the market. The market drops too much and you've got trouble. The bad times make clear just how much risk, too much, has been taken with taxpayer dollars. Last I checked state pension funds aren't being run by unions. Also makes clear why the RWWJ idea of investing SS in the market was such a bad one.

BTW, who thinks Radiologists make too much money? Let's vote on it.

I don't know if all radiologists make too much money, just Hankster. Just think, if health insurance companies didn't pay him his large salary, and the business had to depend on individuals paying all their medical expenses out of pocket, Hank and the docs would have to take a serious cut in pay due to reduced demand.