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#76366 - 04/13/03 01:29 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Arklier Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/30/01
Posts: 403
And what management costs would those be? Once the animals are introduced, they can take care of themselves. Sure, they might be required to be moved or even killed every now and then if they came into contact with people, but this thread has proven that there's no shortage of people anxious to do THAT last job privately.

It seems that a lot of people think that wolves dine solely on trophy deer and elk, which is not the case. They like targets with the least risk: the very young, the sick, the weak, the old, and sometimes the unlucky. A healthy adult deer or elk can do serious harm to a wolf, possibly even killing it, either immediately or by starvation if the animal is injured and can no longer hunt. Rabbits, rodents, and other small animals also make up a large part of their diet.

Yeah, I can hear your next argument: What about when a wolf kills Farmer Bob's only cow? As far as that argument goes, I seem to recall that the Sierra Club had a reimbursement program when the Mexican grey wolf was reintroduced to NM, and not one farmer or rancher ever claimed it. The government also has a program to reimburse farmers for lost cattle, and last I heard, the program was rife with abuse, with farmers and ranchers trying to claim animals that clearly died of other causes as wolf kills.

Now, which of these scenarios is preferable from the human standpoint:

1.) A pair of wolves kill a doe and eat it.

2.) A doe crosses the road at the wrong time and gets pasted by a car, totalling the car and possibly killing the driver or passengers in the process.

I don't know about you, but I'd pick #1. A deer totalling a $35,000 car would pay for a lot of cows.

And I'd be really glad to see data that shows that wolves are any kind of threat to humans. More people died in the US last year by falling off ladders than have been killed by wolves in the entire history of our nation.

It's my opinion that we should live on nature's terms, and appriciate what whatever diety you follow has given us. We're part of nature, not above it. Isn't that why we go out hunting and fishing? To keep in touch with the natural world? After all, it's far cheaper to go out and buy fish and meat at the store. It's somewhat dismaying to me to see that people who claim to love the outdoors would have no hesitation about putting a bullet in a wild animal that poses no danger because of old prejudices and the false opinion that they're 'stealing' 'our' game.

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#76367 - 04/13/03 03:25 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
stilly bum Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/19/01
Posts: 250
Loc: SnoCo
Quote:
Originally posted by Arklier:
Sure, they might be required to be moved or even killed every now and then if they came into contact with people, but this thread has proven that there's no shortage of people anxious to do THAT last job privately.

...They like targets with the least risk: the very young, the sick, the weak, the old, and sometimes the unlucky.
1. We have plenty of private citizens who are anxious to thin the cougar population too, but can't do so effectively because of the hound ban. Instead, the state pays a few to kill cougars that have become problems.

2. All deer and elk are part of the "very young" at first.
_________________________
If anybody needs me, I'll be on the river.

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#76368 - 04/13/03 03:31 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Arklier Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/30/01
Posts: 403
Quote:
Originally posted by stilly bum:

2. All deer and elk are part of the "very young" at first.
Yes. So? That's why they all calve at about the same time, and I know that deer fawns have no scent to make them harder to find. Deer and elk have evolved strategies for foiling predators, just as predators have evolved strategies to catch them. Deer and elk will survive with wolves around, just as they survive with mountain lions and bears like there are now.

And just for the record, I'm against the hound ban. I'm all for using hounds to take lions. But then again, the ones that cause problems are mostly in residential areas where you could never hunt them anyway.

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#76369 - 04/13/03 05:07 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here is an excerpt from Wisconson. I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

---------------------------------------------------
Wolf Management costs will increase from a base level of $130,000 yearly at approximately 10% per year from a base year of 1997-98, for the next five years; this does not include depredation costs. License fees from hunting, fishing or trapping will be used for wolf management only if the species is open for public harvest. Full reimbursement should be made to owners who have lost pets or livestock to wolves; normal costs are estimated at $20,000 to $40,000 per year when wolves have reached management goals. The cost of removing depredating wolves and either translocating them to suitable habitat or euthanizing them is estimated at $15,000 to $30,000 per year. Therefore the total cost of wolf management activities is estimated at from $165,000 to $200,000 per year.
----------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Deer and elk will survive with wolves around, just as they survive with mountain lions and bears like there are now.
Are you really sure about that?

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#76370 - 04/13/03 05:30 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#76371 - 04/13/03 05:36 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Anonymous
Unregistered


and another, wonder how much those boys are getting paid to shoot and who is paying
-----------------------------------------------
Wolves attack woman's llamas again, this time killing one

The Associated Press
4/3/02 1:09 AM


FRENCHTOWN (AP) -- Federal officials on Tuesday verified a llama owned by Geri Ball of the Ninemile Valley was killed during the early morning by a wolf.

It was the second wolf attack at Ball's residence in recent weeks. The first time the llama survived but remains under care and is not doing well, she said.

Ball said she saw the wolf's green eyes in the darkness as she checked her llamas and it took a step toward her before she retreated to the house.

The wolf remained on the dead animal. "It didn't even run when my husband went back out there," she said. "We had to pound on metal to get it to move at all."

The couple's female llamas were in the barn, both because a wolf had attacked another llama 10 days earlier and because it is breeding season.

Three males were in the lower pasture. When the wolf approached, Catalyst ran across the field to investigate and was attacked.

"You can see where Catalyst went down to the cattails, then the wolf's tracks on a run through the mud and onto the ice, and then big gobs of hair in the field," Geri Ball said.

"It's so sad," she said. Catalyst used to pull a little cart, she said, and won ribbons at county fairs in Missoula, Kalispell and Medford, Ore. "He's been a pack llama, too."

Ball's was the fourth llama killed in the Ninemile Valley this year and the fifth attacked.

Last week, federal officials shot and killed two adult males from the Ninemile wolf pack, hoping they were the ones responsible for the attacks. On Tuesday, they made plans to kill two or more of the remaining pack members.

"It could be that we got one right and one wrong, or two wrong, or that other wolves were involved as well," said Ed Bangs, wolf recovery coordinator for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in Helena.

"It's typical wolf stuff," Bangs said. "They avoid anything strange. But once they figure something out, once the behavior is ingrained, it's tough to get them out of there. We have had to kill whole packs before. I hate to see that happen, but part of the deal was we wouldn't let wolves prey on livestock."

Bangs said damage control officers will try to catch a wolf or wolves feeding on the llama carcass. "That's the way to do it, to be sure you've got the right animals," he said. "We'll probably end up shooting a couple more wolves."

"I don't really know what's going on with these llama kills," he said. "We've had wolves in the Ninemile for 12 years and we never had a problem with llamas until last year."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#76372 - 04/13/03 07:42 PM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10513
Loc: Olypen
Would these be hatchery raised wolves....or nates? How would you know the difference....clipped dew claws? beer
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#76373 - 04/14/03 03:51 PM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
BERKLEY BOY75 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 679
Loc: AUBURN
i dont believe we should be throwing lead all around the pacific northwest towards the wolves, but it seems after man eradicates a predator there is allways a huge problem with population rebounding of deer ,elk, and now we got issues with cougars, now it will be the wolves, we dont know how to manage what we allready have, why introduce another predator, jus so we can have issues with it in 5-10 years.. jus look at the sea lions, to many of them, cuz there protected, we need to manage them as well, why not introduce more orca's? when is it gonna stop?

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#76374 - 04/14/03 07:02 PM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I sure would like to hear what the Arkliar has to say about the posted facts and articles I presented.

Have you decided to tuck your tail like Bri24 and HPB?? Those boys make me laugh!

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#76375 - 04/15/03 12:26 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Big Bad Voodoo Daddy Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/15/01
Posts: 912
Loc: Enumclaw
How bout a lottery tag system like they have for moose, goat, and sheep? that would certainly take care of the problem of herd population control.

Not trying to start anything, please dont throw a stupid, snide remark back my way.

I think that when it is figured out, then it should be done. Until then it most definitely should not.

Curtis

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#76376 - 04/15/03 01:13 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Curtis, trust me I will only deliver stupid snide remarks to those deserving, anybody that is truely asking a question gets my honest opinion or sound facts.
My replies are to the point and usually lack any of the warm PC responses so many seem to like around here. I admit, sometimes they can be somewhat sarcastic wink But these two wolf threads were done to hopefully show some examples that by doing these warm and fuzzy, knee jerk decisions, we are so accustomed to in this state, we end up paying for it in the long run.
Not many people on the liberal left side seem to think things though, especially when it comes to scientific wildlife managment (or lack there of).
I asked one simple question (funding) I gave some "guestamint" costs and some hard costs, what did we get nothing! well we did one remark, we got a statement that said, it should come from donations and private funding and a statement stating that we shouldn't have to do anything with them once released.
Those DA remarks are exactly what I am trying to point out.
Somewhere, somehow the bleeding heart, feel good, PC crap that we the sportsmen end up having to pay for, needs to stop!

Now to answer your question, I am assuming that you are talkiing about having a drawing for hunting a wolf? and the proceeds would go towards managment?
Good idea!

Here is my opinion, nothing to back it up factually though.
I believe there would not be much interest in hunting the wolf thus in turn not generating much money for wolf managment.

Lets say they introduce 20 and allow 3 of them a year to be hunted.
Going off the Wisc. #'s the tag prices or money generated from the lottery would have to equal approx. 65,000 a tag. I just really do not see that happening.

For those that have followed these threads (GMU 346, Wolf Question and this thread) I hope it has opened some eyes and shows that we should get very active in the politics of wildlife management in our state..

Now back to my homework my grades are sucking! laugh

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#76377 - 04/15/03 01:34 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Big Bad Voodoo Daddy Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/15/01
Posts: 912
Loc: Enumclaw
8,623 moose lottery tags submitted in 2001 (Can't find 2002 records). Lets say that was the wolf, and we run each submission at $8 or so. Theres the what, 65k you said?

that work?

Curtis

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#76378 - 04/15/03 01:44 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Anonymous
Unregistered


That would work for the 1/3 of the funding. We would need those to be at least 24 dollars each to reach the money that Wisc. is paying out, or get another 16,000 more to join in the permit.
I also stated that I really do not think there would be very many folks interested in shooting a re-introduced wolf. Once again that is my opinion.

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#76379 - 04/15/03 02:40 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Arklier Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/30/01
Posts: 403
Quote:
Originally posted by driftboater:
I sure would like to hear what the Arkliar has to say about the posted facts and articles I presented.

Have you decided to tuck your tail like Bri24 and HPB?? Those boys make me laugh!
Uhh, unlike SOME people apparently, I don't *live* on this board. I also don't hunt (I fish), so I don't pay attention to this board unless I see the thread pop up as the most recent post on the title page.

As for my answers, I have nothing against shooting animals that are causing problems. Not all animals become problem animals, though. Would I agree to killing wolves that are running around Olympic National Park minding their own business? No. As stated in your article, Idaho has a population of 300 wolves, and they've had problems with a few individuals, and Oregon cattlemen are already pissing their pants even though they haven't confirmed a single wolf living in the state. Guess you'd be for killing all the bears, since they sometimes prey on livestock, and they've been known to kill people too. As for the figures given, $160K to $200K is a drop in the bucket, provided that it even costs nearly that much. Montana is a much more rural state, and more people live out in the boonies there.

As for funding, I agree that it should not rest only sportsmen/women. IMHO, the state could find some creative ways to fund control projects, such as vanity license plates, memorobelia, lotteries, ect. They certianly justified those two huge boondoggles sitting right next to each other in downtown Seattle, and even at the most expensive figures, you could manage wolves for 5000 years for what we paid for those things.

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#76380 - 04/15/03 03:02 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
stilly bum Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/19/01
Posts: 250
Loc: SnoCo
Quote:
Originally posted by Arklier:
Yes. So? That's why they all calve at about the same time, and I know that deer fawns have no scent to make them harder to find. Deer and elk have evolved strategies for foiling predators, just as predators have evolved strategies to catch them. Deer and elk will survive with wolves around, just as they survive with mountain lions and bears like there are now.

And just for the record, I'm against the hound ban. I'm all for using hounds to take lions. But then again, the ones that cause problems are mostly in residential areas where you could never hunt them anyway.
You said that wolves don't prey on trophy animals. They do. They prey on them when they are young, before they show their potential. I'm not arguing for trophy management, just debating your point.
The cougars that are causing problems in residential areas are a result of the cougar population boom (and the human population boom). In many cases they've been pushed out of another cat's territory.
_________________________
If anybody needs me, I'll be on the river.

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#76381 - 04/15/03 09:28 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
glowball Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 786
Loc: bullcanyon
Just as a little piece of "fyi". I live in Mineral which is a small town in western washington. About 8 years ago my chocolate lab got into a fight with a cougar 25 yards from my back door. Believe it or not the dog won. We called the game department to take care of the problem cat and they did nothing. They showed up late the next day and said "oh its too late to track it." Having that happen opened my eyes and made me wonder how many other folks in washington have had the same problem and will have that problem with wolves. I for one will shoot either one of the above on sight.
My cougar sightings have gone up drastically since the hound band, and those that don't think they'll ever see one or see the wolves when they get introduced are wrong. I saw a big cat 1/2 down the main road from my house yesterday.
Not real happy about it considering I have a 4 year old daughter and 1 year old son that like to play outside.
More go@@am flatlanders making big wig decisions up in seattle messing up my life. There is my justification for shooting on sight. Like it or not I don't care. If I get caught I'll pay the consequenses. If I get caught.
_________________________
There's no head like steelhead!
Operations manager of coors light testing facility.

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#76382 - 04/15/03 11:17 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
As for the figures given, $160K to $200K is a drop in the bucket, provided that it even costs nearly that much
a few posts back you stated that there would be no costs for annual maintinance. That excerpt was just showing you tha tthere are costs. Washingtons situation may or may not be different, but there will for sure be costs associated with it.

Quote:
As for funding, I agree that it should not rest only sportsmen/women. IMHO, the state could find some creative ways to fund control projects, such as vanity license plates, memorobelia, lotteries, ect.
Jeeze Louise,, why didnt you just come out and state your funding plan a long time ago, would saved us alot of time, oh but, you didnt think any funding was necessary... Dah!

Quote:
They certianly justified those two huge boondoggles sitting right next to each other in downtown Seattle, and even at the most expensive figures, you could manage wolves for 5000 years for what we paid for those things.
lets keep it apples to apples OK. I have already been down this road. You want to debate stadiums and their economic values feel free to do so. I will chime in on your thread about that. We already set Magia Fimia straight a few years back. We could do it again if you so desire, but not on this format.

Hey, how long ago did you move here and was it California that you left?

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#76383 - 04/16/03 12:54 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Hairy Ape Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 119
Loc: Rochester, Washington
glowballs,
I don't think the state would have a problem with you killing a cougar that was in your backyard. Besides, isn't the season about 6 months long? There's a good chance they'd be in season anyway, and you could just put your tag on it. Kill all of 'em I say. And I don't mean I want all cats killed, I just mean kill the ones you see. Sure won't hurt the cat population any, now that you can't hunt them with hounds.

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#76384 - 04/16/03 01:22 AM Re: Help the Wolf! Urgent Donations Needed!
Big Bad Voodoo Daddy Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/15/01
Posts: 912
Loc: Enumclaw
Hey Glowball, lets stay in touch. Next cougar season we should go cleaning up around your neighborhood.

Curtis

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