Defiance Boats!



Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!


Three Rivers Marine


Page 1 of 203 1 2 3 ... 202 203 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#818529 - 01/29/13 02:35 AM FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET ***
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606

This deserves a new thread of its own.

As someone who has spent the past decade in the trenches fighting the good fight in Grays Harbor, I request that the MODS keep it stuck to the ABSOLUTE top of the board until the NOF process for 2013 is complete.

Rivrguy is to be commended for his tireless efforts to help bring the light of day on the harvest abuses perpetrated on the salmon stocks of Grays Harbor and the Chehalis Basin. This website lays it all out there in full living color. Anyone who has fished our local waters owes it to themselves to click on the link below and explore the ENTIRE site. The video tutorials are especially eye-opening.

WDFW is fully aware of what's going on.

The Commission, while somewhat insulated from the issue by WDFW staffers has been apprised by public testimony on these harvest abuses on no less than three occasions over the past decade. While commissioners may lack the detailed technical expertise of Fish Program staff, they have been made aware of our concerns.

So again, have a look-see and feel free to comment on what you read/see/hear.
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)

The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

#818540 - 01/29/13 09:29 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
GBL Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/31/05
Posts: 1862
Loc: Yakutat
Just watched all available videos, darn good information!

As one who has lived in Washington my whole life and have roots on the OP, I found the whole series very interesting. Not surprising at all as most of us that were on the OP and in Washington in the 50's, 60's and 70's knew exactly what the state was doing!
It is just sad to see what the WDFW has systematically done to the Washington fisheries over the years and the worse part, it is all in their own records! They are not even hiding the shame anymore!

#818551 - 01/29/13 11:06 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: GBL]
Eric Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3426
Nicely put together and easy to navigate. thumbs

Should generate some passionate discussions. I hope it helps produce a positive outcome for all sport fishers in the Chehalis and Willapa basins at the end of NOF.

#818561 - 01/29/13 11:45 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: GBL]
DrifterWA Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4977
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: GBL
It is just sad to see what the WDFW has systematically done to the Washington fisheries over the years and the worse part, it is all in their own records! They are not even hiding the shame anymore!

Took some shaking, thru PDR's, to get WDFW to release information. A classical example of "we are government, we'll do things how we want, and feed the general public, what WE feel they need to know".

Still not sure the upper WDFW management, upper Region personnel and upper Olympia Fish management personnel are getting the message???

Time tells all !!!!!! Wheels of progress, move very slowly. Wynoochee River Dam mitigation is a example.....more than 20 years since a fund was established for Coho and Steelhead. That's 20 years that fish have not been placed in the river, for all to enjoy.

More will be forth coming on Tacoma Public Light, WDFW.....and the $2.4 million that "sits", grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

#818596 - 01/29/13 03:29 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: DrifterWA]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4450
Loc: B'ham
That is a fabulous, informative website. Big props to all involved!

#818597 - 01/29/13 03:31 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: DrifterWA]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
One of the rumours making the rounds is that TCL has (now) less than 10 years left on their operation at the dam. They could choose to not renew their operation. If they so chose, and WDFW still had not figured out how to spend the money, would it all go back to TCL?

May be in their best interest to just let WDFW play with itself.

#818750 - 01/29/13 09:20 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
Lucky Louie Offline

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2267
I’ve only seen the WDFW Historical Bias video, and have found it to be interesting and informative. So well done, that I’m looking forward to watching the rest of the videos, as time permits.
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them

#818798 - 01/29/13 11:30 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Lucky Louie]
superfly Offline
The Renegade White Man

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 2349
Loc: The Coast or the Keys !!!
Good work ! lets try and get things changed , a number of people here on this site have been inolved for a lot of years with no progress and its got to be frustrating to them. I have been involed for 8-9 years now and feel that at times we are moving in the right direction, then the department just changes its mind and tears down everything that we worked on..... very similiar to a dictatorship..................


Edited by superfly (01/29/13 11:32 PM)
Facebook/Superfly Guides


Stay Tuned for upcoming Hunts & Fishing info...........

New website & Channel Dropping soon !

Stay tuned for Turkey, Bear & Deer Hunts Along with Guided Sport Fishing.

Book Release Prior to Christmas 2021

#818813 - 01/30/13 12:05 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: superfly]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606
My testimony to the Commission 2 weekends ago...

Good Morning, Commissioners

My name is Francis Estalilla, an eye surgeon from Aberdeen, newly re-appointed member to the Grays Harbor Advisory, member of the Coastal Conservation Association, and concerned sportsman.

A little over four years ago I addressed this body in person to bring your attention to ongoing harvest abuses in Grays Harbor, particularly Chehalis River Fall Chinook. You took genuine interest in the matter and even initiated a “green sheet” to further investigate the allegations. I return today to give you a “report card” of sorts… something to consider as we embark on another NOF proceeding in the next 2 months.

Four years ago I told you that Chehalis fall Chinook had only exceeded the minimum escapement goal twice in the previous 11 years. Since then, we’ve only made it ONCE more. I’d wager that when the 2012 escapement figures are released next month, the record will stand at 3 for 15. In other words, managers are missing the mark 4 out of 5 times! In my profession, I can’t imagine the repercussions if I were to blind 4 out of every 5 eyes that I took to the operating room.

Why does this happen? Well sometimes it’s just bad luck. Some years, the total run size falls short of the escapement goal. Can’t blame the managers for fish that simply aren’t there. Hey… fish happens!

But what about most other years…. when more than enough fish show up to seed the gravel? Once those kings cross the bar at Westport, the only controllable factor keeping them from reaching their spawning grounds is the fishery.

As you are well aware, that fishery is crafted by making a preseason forecast of how many paper fish to expect, subtracting the fish necessary for escapement, and then allocating who gets to kill the remaining “surplus” paper fish. This is the annual ritual we all know as the NOF process.

On paper it all seems to work out, but in the real world, we’re simply kill too many kings. The reality is that the harvest models CLEARLY understate the true fishing power of the fleet… commercial, sport, and tribal. Moreover, understating the fishing power of one user group has an allocative domino effect as it makes even more paper fish available to be exploited by the next. As managers seek to expend every last paper fish, they’re simply fishing the stock too hard… so hard that we’ve made it past the escapement benchmark only 3 times in the past 15 seasons. Sadly the only reason we made it those 3 years is that the run-size happened to come in much stronger expected. Divine grace or blind luck? Take your pick. I would NOT want to rely on chance alone to save my bacon in the operating room.

Another insidious mechanism that promotes the systematic overexploitation of Chehalis fish is the application of faulty assumptions about the co-mingling of Humptulips- and Chehalis-origin kings in the Grays Harbor estuary. The model grossly overstates the proportion of Humptulips stock to effectively dilute and mask the true magnitude of exploitation on Chehalis stock, particularly in the recreational marine area and commercial Area 2A/2D. This allows seemingly benign fishing seasons to occur on paper pre-season…. to the direct detriment of escapement post-season.

I’m prepared to address any questions you may have with very detailed examples. Thank you for your time.
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)

The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

#818817 - 01/30/13 12:09 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606
Unfortunately, I got no takers on my invitation for questions.

Here's a year-by-year summary of what I was prepared to present if they had taken any interest in digging deeper. Just wasn't meant to be.


How badly do the managers underestimate that fishing power? Let me give some recent examples from each component of the fishery.

In 2005 managers set a 10% impact objective of 1100 dead paper kings for the entire basin. Gillnets alone actually killed 2600 of the free-swimming variety…. most of them at the hands of the QIN.

In 2006 Region 6 set a rec season to harvest 215 paper kings in MA 2-2. We killed 5 times that many (1065).

In 2007 Region 6 set a rec season to harvest 1168 paper kings. We killed 1719.

In 2008 (with no harvestable Chinook, no harvestable chum, and only a Tier 2 coho forecast), a NT gillnet season was set to target Chehalis coho despite specific language stating “no directed commercial coho fishery”. With a NT share of only 3800 wild coho and -400 kings, the NT nets killed over 5200 wild coho AND 150 incidental kings were discarded as bycatch.

The harvest abuses and intentional deviations from the Tier Plan came to a head in 2009. At long last, WDFW finally demonstrated restraint and stewardship when Director Anderson and Pat Patillo settled a NOF stalemate in Montesano by leaving 150 paper kings on the allocation table to reach the gravel. For the first time in my decade-long involvement in this process, the state’s conservation objectives were met for all three species of Chehalis fall salmon (Chinook, coho, and chum). If that was the direct result of Commission intervention, then I owe you my sincere thanks.

2010 and 2011 saw poor Chinook returns that should have compelled Region 6 to manage with a precautionary approach but progressively more gillnet days were added to exceed the planned pre-season impacts.

2012 saw a harvestable Chinook run-size and it was back to business as usual…. with a full court press to maximize the harvest of paper fish while shirking the conservation of REAL fish.
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)

The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

#818838 - 01/30/13 02:09 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
metaladdiction Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 433
Have only watched sevaral of the videos so far, but want to thank all involved for there tireless efforts. Thanks guys, we appreciate all your hard work.

#818853 - 01/30/13 10:19 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: metaladdiction]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Back when I first started in front-line management of salmon the goal was achievement of the escapement goal. If the numbers did not show harvestable fish there was no fishery. If the numbers did not show enough fish to cover incidental harvest there was no directed fishery.

That has now morphed into "share the catch". Say that in order to have an ocean sport fishery that 100 Hoh coho will be taken. To balance things, 100 will also be taken in the river by the tribes. What is most important, now, is to craft fisheries that balance catch (first goal).

After a contentious fishing season when Hood Canal coho (at one time a primary stock controlling ocean fisheries) failed to meet goal (again), the WDFW manager noted that "We had a pre-season plan, we all followed it, management was successful".

You just need to set goals that are achievable. So, Doc, your surgery goal is to perform 10 operations per week. Success is doing that. It's not the results, it's the process.

#818854 - 01/30/13 10:28 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: metaladdiction]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4397
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
The credit for the website videos goes to Tim the site administrator. I am the gopher / teacher / traffic cop here as I lack the skills to do the videos. Good match really as I have 30 years around fish and the agency and some of the team have even more. The thing about it is this. I am in this for one reason, to break the continuing institutionalized discrimination of WDF&W toward the inland communities and inriver sports fisher. Hopefully in the process help the fish.

Agree or disagree to our views but I think we all can agree on this, the destruction of the resource for the benefit of 22 gillnetters and denying the tax paying citizens of the inland Chehalis Basin communities reasonable access to salmon harvest must end. The failure to allow additional fish to reach spawning areas to utilize revitalized, under seeded, restored habitat must end. The destruction of one species to harvest another must end. Simply put " the Big Lie " that WDF&W manages for anything but commercial harvest must end. It is " game on ".

Edited by Rivrguy (01/30/13 12:32 PM)
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

#818912 - 01/30/13 02:51 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3310
In case I haven't said it enough, THANK YOU to those of you (you know who you are) who have dedicated so much of their personal time to righting the wrongs of WDFW's management of the Chehalis Basin. I have recently become much more active in the same pursuit, but I recognize that my efforts pale in comparison to those put forth by a few of you over many more years.

#818947 - 01/30/13 05:10 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Soft bite Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 147
Loc: Central Park
Just a note to expand on the EYEfish summary for 2012.

2012 saw a harvestable Chinook run-size and it was back to business as usual…. with a full court press to maximize the harvest of paper fish while shirking the conservation of REAL fish.

When the NOF was in progress for 2012 the estimated Chehalis Chinook run size was 20,515 fish (mostly wild). The escapement goal was 12,942 leaving 7,573 harvestable fish. This was split up between the Quin, Commercials, Sports, and the Chehalis tribe. This is the critical run that determines how much fishing gets done in Grays Harbor.

After the season ended it became clear that actual harvest for all groups was about 50% of the modeled rate. It was'nt your fishing skill, the fish just were not there. What this means is that the actual run size was about 50% of the forecast or just over 10,000 fish. Clearly not enough for escapement alone! When the actual harvest is known it will probably exceed 4,000 fish!

So our plan to fish to the last paper fish resulted in an escapement of less than 6,000 fish or about half the escapement goal.

The above numbers are my harvest estimates and not from an official source.

#818961 - 01/30/13 06:13 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Soft bite]
gooybob Offline

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 981
Loc: Tacoma
You guys are doing fantastic work! The website and video presentations are first class! I take my hat off to you. After looking through the website I'm feeling motivated. I love the Chehalis River along with all its tributaries. The Chehalis itself is a real wonder. It's almost ancient and unique as rivers go in this state. Going forward I am going to try and get involved. I will follow your cause and see where I can help. Again, that is an incredible, well thought out site. Your hard work is much appreciated by me and I'm sure everyone else who is in touch with the cause. Thank you!

#819055 - 01/30/13 11:40 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: gooybob]
chromer_simpson Offline

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 11
Loc: Chehalis, WA
Excellent resource! Thanks for the hard work!! I know these guys aren't getting paid for this, and really appreciate that people actually DO give a damn

#819097 - 01/31/13 01:31 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: chromer_simpson]
Doctor Rick Offline
Free Prostate Exams

Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 1544
Loc: Sequim
Excellent post. PM sent.

#819407 - 01/31/13 11:03 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Doctor Rick]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13394

Some good work there! You might think about contacting Sam Wright (retired WDFW biologist) in Olympia about a petition to list "Gray's Harbor" wild chum salmon as threatened under the ESA. That could throw a rock into the Region 6 salmon management plan since they don't have to deal with ESA issues on the coast. Yet. Sam has experience with submitting successful ESA petitions. I might not have thought about this until seeing that WDFW is systematically trying to extirpate chum salmon from the creek I grew up on simply to appease 22 gillnetters.


Edited by Salmo g. (01/31/13 11:04 PM)

#819435 - 02/01/13 12:03 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Salmo g.]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606
The smallest unit of listing is an ESU.... evolutionary significant unit.

GH chum belong to a HUGE unit... the Pacific coast chum.

Basically, in the ESA world, there's three small distinct ESU's for chum... Columbia R, Puget Sound, and Hood Canal.

Then there's this giant "other" basket for the rest.... Pacific Coast... which includes No. CA, OR, and WA coasts.

The entire ESU must be threatened to achieve a listing. And it may well be that the entire ESU is in deep doo doo. Proving it over over such a wide range over three states is another matter altogether.
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)

The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

Page 1 of 203 1 2 3 ... 202 203 >


Site Links
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Contact Us
About Us
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
3 registered (eddie, wolverine, stonefish), 213 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 27837
Dan S. 16958
Sol Duc 15727
The Moderator 13941
Salmo g. 13394
eyeFISH 12606
Dogfish 10878
ParaLeaks 10363
Jerry Garcia 9013
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63787 Topics
645463 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.