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#926904 - 04/09/15 06:45 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET *** [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606
Any GH policy discussion about the sliding scale thresholds for commercial chinook impact?

The newly adopted e-goals for Hump and Chehalis make the thresholds written in the current policy obsolete if not senseless... particularly for Hump chinook.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#926905 - 04/09/15 06:49 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Quote:
Any GH policy discussion about the sliding scale thresholds for commercial chinook impact?


Not sure Doc but not much. Softbite off your notes do you recall the question being addressed?
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#926912 - 04/09/15 08:53 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606
The top-end chinook thresholds for the commercial sliding scales (Hump 4K and Chehalis 25K ) were set based on the OLD chinook goals (2.2K and 12.4K respectively). Do they still make sense in the setting of the NEW goals of 3.6K and 9.9K?

I think the obvious answer is NO! esp for Hump where 110% of goal is now just a handful shy of 4K. The precise numbers are 3982 (110% of goal) and 4070 (top end of sliding scale)…. that’s less than 100 fish to slide from 1.2% impact to 5.4% harvest. Mission impossible?

Conceptually, the top end was predicated on LARGE run sizes (defined as >182% of goal). 182% of old goal (2236) = 4070. To stay true to the policy's conceptual intent, the top-end Hump threshold should be increased to 6588 wild chinook.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#926914 - 04/09/15 09:27 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Soft bite Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 147
Loc: Central Park
eyeFISH, I did not hear any discussion of Grays Harbor sliding scale thresholds or newer escapement goals. The main discussion item was the meaning of adaptive management and how it should be used. It was in relation to a question about being able to direct harvest chinook in September if the total impact was below the 5% cap. Steve said it was up to the commission to allow violation of the policy, not the department.

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#927024 - 04/11/15 05:03 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Soft bite]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Ok we have the interim the interim policy draft, and the final ( as of now ) Willapa Policy Draft Presentation and Interim can be sent to anyone wanting it, just PM me your address. The Grays Harbor presentation I do not have as it had a error in it so Steve is trying to get it fixed before it goes out & about.

Now on the draft it is full of strike outs and colors that make a C&P impossible so it is PM time here also. To put this in perspective in the interim policy only one change by the Commission the 20% harvest rate was reduced to 14%. WDF&W went with 20% ended up with 37% plus change. So now they have a problem how does WDF&W do something that they have always said they would / could do and have failed miserably at? No idea here but I certainly would not want Steve Thiesfeld's job!!!
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#927487 - 04/18/15 08:32 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Here is the Willapa NOF schedule & Willapa Interim Policy for those who do not have it. Should be interesting meetings to say the least.



From Steve Theisfeld:

As you may recall, we postponed our North of Falcon meetings to discuss salmon seasons for Willapa Bay while we waited for the Fish and Wildlife Commission to provide some interim guidance for 2015. We are hopeful that guidance will be provided on Thursday. In preparation for moving forward with Willapa Bay salmon season discussions, we have tentatively scheduled the following meetings:

• Tuesday April 21st, WB advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
• Thursday April 23rd, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm
• Tuesday April 28th, WB Advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
• Thursday April 30th, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm


So please mark these dates on your calendars. Once we have guidance from the Commission, we’ll work to get a news release out (assuming Public Affairs deems it news release worthy).

Thank you all for your patience during this process.

Cheers.


Steve Thiesfeld
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Region 6 Fish Program Manager
48 Devonshire Road, Montesano, WA 98563
Steven.Thiesfeld@dfw.wa.gov
360-249-1201


Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission
2015 Willapa Bay Salmon Management Interim Guidance
April 9, 2015

The Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission is providing Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (Department) staff with this guidance and expects specific fishing seasons, including time, manner, and place prescriptions, will be developed in the rule- making process that considers both the policy and any public input. The Department shall use the following policy guidance for managing salmon fisheries in Willapa Bay and tributary rivers in 2015.

Fall Chinook Salmon:

The Department shall initiate a rebuilding program to conserve and restore wild Chinook salmon in Willapa Bay. For 2015, limit mortality rates on Naselle and Willapa River natural-origin Chinook salmon to no more than 14% to initiate rebuilding the number of natural-origin spawners. Within the conservation constraints of the rebuilding program, manage fisheries with the following goals:

• Manage Chinook salmon for an enhanced recreational fishing season to increase participation and/or catch including consideration of increased daily limits, earlier openings, multiple rods, and other measures.

• Structure recreational and commercial fisheries (e.g., schedule, location, gear) to minimize gear and other fishery conflicts:

o Commercial fisheries may be scheduled prior to August 8 but shall be limited to a maximum of one 48 consecutive-hour period.

o No commercial fisheries shall occur from August 8 through Labor Day in areas 2T and 2U.

• Promote the conservation and restoration of Chinook salmon in Willapa Bay by:

o Closing an appropriate area to protect North River Chinook, for example consider for all fisheries through September 30, close the area north of a line from Toke Point channel marker 3 easterly through Willapa Harbor channel marker 13 (green) then, northeasterly to the power transmission pole located at 46 degrees 43.19'N, 123 degrees 50.83'W.

o Commercial fisheries may be scheduled in areas 2T and 2U after Labor Day and before Sept. 16 but shall use mark-selective fishing gear (6.5” maximum mesh, 4.5” maximum mesh tangle net, or other alternative gear) and recovery boxes.

o If it becomes apparent that scheduled commercial fisheries will exceed the aggregated pre-season natural-origin Chinook mortality expectation, the Department shall implement in-season management actions so that mortalities of natural-origin Chinook shall not exceed the aggregated pre- season projection.

• Monitoring, sampling, and enforcement programs will adequately account for species and population impacts (landed catch and incidental fishing mortality) of all recreational and commercial fisheries and ensure compliance with state regulations.

Coho Salmon:

Manage fisheries with the goal of achieving the aggregate spawner goal for Willapa Bay natural-origin Coho salmon. Within this conservation constraint , fisheries will be managed within the following intent:

• Prioritize commercial fishing opportunities during the Coho fishery management period (September 16 through October 14 and after October 31); and

• Provide recreational fishing opportunities.

Chum Salmon:

Manage fisheries with the goal of achieving the aggregate spawner goal for Willapa Bay natural-origin Chum salmon. For 2015, limit the mortalities on chum salmon to no more than 10% to continue rebuilding the number of natural-origin spawners. Within the conservation constraints of meeting the aggregate escapement goal, manage fisheries with the following goals:

• No commercial fisheries will occur in the period from October 15-31 to further limit mortalities on natural-origin chum.

• Provide recreational fishing opportunities. Recreational fisheries will be allowed to retain Chum salmon.

Adaptive Management:

The Commission recognizes that adaptive management will be essential to achieve the intent of this interim guidance. Department staff may implement actions to manage adaptively and will coordinate with the Commission, as needed, in order to implement corrective actions.


Edited by Rivrguy (04/18/15 08:55 AM)
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#927905 - 04/22/15 10:44 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
My look at the Willapa NOF Adviser meeting last night.


First up a reminder on tomorrow night's Willapa NOF meeting. It is a public meeting so all can participate. I really urge all that can make it do so as this where I think the foundation for the 2015 seasons are coming into view for the first time.

• Tuesday April 21st, WB advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
• Thursday April 23rd, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm
• Tuesday April 28th, WB Advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
• Thursday April 30th, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm

Next up the question how did the Adviser meeting go last night? Well I took notes but in the end I think some good things came to light as well as some serous failures on the agency side of things. So the highs & lows.

HARVEST MODEL: A substantial amount of work has been put into getting it to reflect reality. The impacts can be broken out by weeks, user, and location. The down side? They did not have the bloody thing ready to go as the Rec season inputted was simply last years. It may not sound like much but without the Rec season in the model the Commercial side is playing blind man's bluff trying to get there seasons modeled correctly and accurately. Process is process be it Rec or Commercial but it is totally inappropriate to ask those participating to do so without the tools to get the job done. Steve Theisfeld and staff are working hard ( one of the staff is also ill ) but this is a colossal failure. Had not senior staff ( Olympia ) spent what time was available at PFMC trying to reverse the Commission's decision to put in a 14% harvest rate and directed staff to immediately reboot off their preferred 20% things could / should / would have looked much different.

INTERIM POLICY: A bunch of questions from both the Commercial and Rec Advisers but it resulted in not much happening here. Again the questions on North River Chinook and the question is it a distinctive stock? Agency response was they had little luck getting out migrants ( 2 or 3 out migrants ) so no change here also.

COMMERCIALS: This was a bit strange. Several of the Commercial Advisers present refused to set at the table. It is their right but frankly it does not help getting the best season possible for them. On the other hand a Commercial Adviser who did participate immediately proposed going to October 15 go backwards into September as far as possible with what Chinook impacts were available. Straight ahead no BS and the gentleman deserves a hand for going to the rules ( Interim Willapa Policy ) rather than pout in the cheap seats with the public.

This is where my blood pressure went up also. Minus a working model with options for this year's Rec seasons inputted it is impossible to map a accurate season scenario for either the Commercial or Rec fishers. Again this was and is colossal failure for staff that over shadows all the effort put into getting the model ready.

Additionally two of the Commercial Advisers ( not at the table ) questioned the exvessel value ( dollar value of the harvest ) presented by staff. More to come here I am sure.

RECREATION FISHERS: From a Adviser came a in-depth proposal for the inriver season. It was clearly defined and well thought out. ( if I can get a copy I will put it out ) Big hand to the lady who just happens to be the only women representative on the Advisers. She did her homework, came prepared, and went at it. Not bad. Most do not realize that the inriver seasons have been horribly restrictive in past years right to the point of being punitive by design.

For the T & U fishers the limiter of Willapa and North River NOR ( wild ) Chinook came home. Not that bad here guys but a issue that has to be addressed. It will revolve around bag limits in the end and how you split impacts Rec freshwater / bay / Commercial nets. So again the failure to have a fully functioning harvest model did not allow much to be accomplished.

ODDS & ENDS: The Interim Policy directs staff to a enhanced recreational season. It was put forward that if the Commercials are not in T & U that this could be considered a " enhanced " Rec season. If you fish T & U one might draw that conclusion but if your inriver not so much. Which brought about one of the Advisers calling BS on that one. Again more to come I am sure.

Some concerns on if a expanded bag limit was in place it would draw crowds. Also the issue of the situation in Puget Sound Chinook fisheries again bringing more Rec fishers and crowds. This one I find to be very interesting to say the least. If one is going to have expanded Rec opportunity that is what will happen. The alternative? Utilize the Commercial fishery to the maximum for harvest as done in the past in Willapa and many other places. Expanded opportunity does not mean more fish for those who have fished a place but rather more fishers pursuing more fish due to reduced Commercial harvest. A better way to say it is a redesigned equitable sharing of harvest between Rec & Commercials. That is how you get economic justification for a expanded tourism driven harvest management of available impacts.

FINAL THOUGHTS: Kudos to all the Willapa Advisers who chose to participate and in particular the two previously mentioned. They came prepared, ready to do business, and expected to do business. It is unfortunate that senior WDF&W staff in Olympia wasted valuable time trying to undo the Commission's decision to use a conservation driven 14% harvest rate rather than direct Region 6 staff to immediately move to prepare for Willapa NOF. Again this was and is a colossal failure by staff driven by Olympia but Region 6 staff will take the criticism be it deserved or not.


Edited by Rivrguy (04/22/15 06:41 PM)
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#928118 - 04/24/15 10:22 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

The Willapa Harvest Model is available. It can be confusing but one can get a good look at things by hitting the Fishery Summary tab as most of the information will be there for most. The calendar tab will give the actual day of the month the listed week stat refers to. The Commercial schedule is to the right side of the page and the Rec season modeled right below. Keep in mind these are only PRELIMINARY suggestions and nothing is final. If you want the model just PM me your e mail address and I will get it to you.

WILLAPA NOF PUBLIC MEETING: So how did the Willapa NOF public meeting go? Ah, not sure as the agency stuck very tight to the premise of taking input only. The harvest model was ready with Rec & Commercial seasons put in but only ( a big only folks ) what had been asked for or suggested by the Advisers and public. This resulted in considerable confusion for some not so much for others. So the high and low points as see it.

COMMERCIAL SEASON: Utilizing the Commercial Adviser suggestion that inputted October 3 / week 40 backwards utilizing the Commercial share of Chinook impacts using standard gillnets which got them to September 13 / week 38 in T & U. They got another week in to September 6 / week 37 in N, R, M. Out for the month of October back in for the first 3 weeks of November.

It was suggested that the Commercials consider using tangle nets to reduce Chinook release mortality giving them a expanded season but those Commercials present did not want to selectively fish. By doing this they are passing on a lot of Coho available for harvest but they appeared to be determined not to selectively fish.

RECREATIONAL FISHERS SEASON: Staff modeled a greatly expanded inriver fishery with 6 fish / 4 adult bag limits. Some issues existed with portions of the season on certain streams but again staff only utilized input from the Advisers and public. The T & U Rec fisheries had a August 1 start 6 fish / 4 adult bag also. It was suggested that a earlier date is possible so July 16 was put up for consideration as the opening date for T & U.

The modeled Rec seasons also had a two pole endorsement but for both bay and inriver. This caused a little around & around the bush bit with folks as it was in the Nemah proposed season. Some banky advocates thought this was to much with large numbers of folks others not so much. In the other streams some thought if two poles go for a boat the banky fishers should also get it. It is one of those things that some feel one size fits all where others felt you use it where it is appropriate. Interesting discussion long overdue as it is a interesting question to be sure. If a stream layout and access is such that two poles could have issues with bank fishers do you then restrict the boat fishers or visa versa? Sometimes one size does not fit all so this dance will continue.

ACCESS FOR INRIVER: This was all over the board. Some present felt that opening up more river for the Rec would upset the local property owners. Others called BS that you do not shut off public waters to fishing because someone might trespass. This revolved around the Nemah but the Naselle jumped in the conversation with Willapa coming right behind.

This is always a thorny issue but as one who lives on the Chehalis River you deal with it. Just because I am fortunate enough to live where I do does not mean I own the river as it is public water for heaven's sake. Can people be a pain? In a word yes. I have had people tie up to my dock and use my fish cleaning station without asking, just many things. That said it is part of living next to public waters and I or no other property owner owns the river as it belongs to all citizens. Again more to come I am sure.

So next up is the Willapa Adviser meeting Tuesday April 28th, WB Advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm. Hope to see you there.




Edited by Rivrguy (04/24/15 10:31 AM)
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#928163 - 04/26/15 01:51 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606
From the testimony given at the last meeting, the commercials are 100% convinced that the standard gillnet is the gear-type of choice. The option to use smaller-mesh tangle-net gear was offered up by a rec guy, but they (GN's) absolutely refused to accept that it could be feasible... too much grass, too much anchovies, too much....

Here's the bottom line.... they squelch any potential of their industry succeeding in a modern wild fish paradigm because they refuse to adapt. It has everything to do with clinging to an ancient industrial fishing method to benefit a a handful of folks who refuse to adapt their gear to modern realities.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#928181 - 04/26/15 04:45 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13394
The thing about dinosaurs is that they usually go extinct.

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#928184 - 04/26/15 05:17 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4977
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
I've about had it with the NT'ers and all the reasons the tangle net should not be the option when netting Willapa or Grays Harbor.

#1 item from the WDFW Commission was CONSERVATION, loud and clear!!!! Change is needed, NOW, not somewhere down the line. If you can't adapt to a more conservation friendly way to take fish......Hang the net up, try to sell your GN license, move on....

Its happened before.....Railroad workers, and for sure people that worked with logging.......times change, tough to do, but need to move on....ITs not ever going to get back to times before the Bolt Decision or before all the dams were put in the Columbia River.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#928185 - 04/26/15 05:47 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 917
Loc: tacoma
Remember that the major fleet reduction and buy commercial back program of the 1970s, impacting primarily the commercial trollers, was in the fishery that could have most easily gone to a selective harvest model.

Perhaps we should re think that.

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#928325 - 04/28/15 08:48 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: milt roe]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Last call for NOF Willapa Adviser meetings tonight for those following the process. With the new model many have started inputting seasons and to see what is possible so it should be interesting to say the least.

Tuesday April 21st, WB advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
Thursday April 23rd, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm
Tuesday April 28th, WB Advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
Thursday April 30th, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm

Back to Grays Harbor and keep in mind this is Grays Harbor as things are different depending on which tribe is involved and what WDF&W staff is involved. After watching the finger pointing between Region 6 staff and the QIN over the years I think it is time for it to come to an end. It matters little as to who started it ( but I do believe WDF&W gets the dubious honor in Grays Harbor ) but rather that the poking each other in the eye stop. I doubt that staff of either the QIN or WDF&W have it in them so I am urging the Commission to look at another approach.


Commissioners,

I would like to thank the Commission for all its efforts in developing the Grays Harbor Management Policy ( GHMP ) over the past year as it has been a difficult journey for both the public and Commission. From my perspective it has been successful but during the Commission review of the GHMP on April 9, 2015 the issue of Quinault Indian Nation ( QIN ) harvest policy was discussed. What I was struck by was not the fact that this was a issue but rather the failure of WDF&W staff to provide a "big picture" view of the issue.

The driver of this conversation appeared to be that the QIN had taken more than its share negating any conservation gains provided by the GHMP. The GHMP mandates three net free days a week ( 4/3 ) and additionally the failure to make Chehalis Chinook escapement three out of five years resulted in GHMP mandated harvest restrictions. ( 3/5 "penalty box" ) With the information provided I can fully understand the Commission's concerns but the failure by WDF&W staff to fully present the "big picture" was very apparent to those familiar with the issue. What was not presented to the Commission was that after back mathing the Harvest Model it was apparent that neither the QIN or WDF&W staff would have known the Chehalis Chinook forecast was not materializing. This resulted in the QIN harvest numbers and escapement being very different than if the run had been as forecasted.

The discussion appeared to be driven by the issue of QIN 50% share of Chehalis Chinook being exceeded. What staff has told us in public recently but did not tell the Commissioners was the fact this often happens be it the state or QIN fisheries. If you look at the issue in totality it looks different. Take Steelhead where the non treaty Recreational fisher utilizing C&R targeting hatchery production harvest more than the QIN. If you factor in Summerrun Steelhead the states share gets even larger. With Razor Clams the QIN have allowed the state to use more than its share to keep the beaches open for Clam digging with significant economic benefit to the coastal communities. Let us not forget Crab and the state has harvested into the tribal share in the past without even asking.

Which brings me to the purpose of this letter. It is my belief that the relationship between the staff of both WDF&W and the QIN has become so toxic that it will not improve but rather continue to deteriorate at a ever increasing rate. I urge the Commission to consider a alternate approach. Frankly it is diplomacy that is needed. I ask the Commission Chair and Fish Committee to consider meeting with the QIN tribal representatives without either WDF&W or QIN fisheries staff. Not to negotiate but rather for both parties to have a conversation, listen, and begin to understand the others views. To see it " through the others eyes " is another way to describe it.

Commissioners after Boldt our community went through a turbulent time that was difficult to say the least. It could have been much worse had it not been for the QIN leadership under Joe DeLaCruz. Joe joined with Grays Harbor Port Commissioner John Stevens in proposing that all come together and work toward a different way of doing things. From this effort in Grays Harbor would come the Regional Fisheries Enhancement Group concept that was adopted statewide. We were able to convince the Northwest Renewable Resource Foundation to create what became Long Live the Kings Chinook restoration effort on the Wishkah River. Tribal fishers worked side by side with non tribal in Chinook broodstocking efforts on three rivers. The Confederation of Chehalis Tribes worked intensely with local volunteers with Chinook restoration efforts.

So after overcoming the aftermath of Boldt and leaving the past behind just how did we get to where we are? I can only give my thoughts that come from 34 years of involvement in fisheries in Grays Harbor and the Chehalis Basin. I do not believe it was any one thing but rather a death by a hundred cuts. The things that stand out most are the following.

• Region 6 under Tim Flint separated the Chehalis and Humptulips into separate management zones. The courts have given the QIN fishing rights to the aggregate of both rivers and the QIN did not and do not to the best my knowledge support or accept the separation. In fact some view the issue as requiring the QIN to accept a modification of the court decision to accept the separation of the Chehalis and Humptulips. I would also point out that the separation was not for conservation but rather to enable a Recreational bay fishery.

• When WDF&W implemented the Grays Harbor Management Plan ( never approved by the Commission ) it was followed with major use of mark selective fisheries in both recreational and commercial. It is my understanding the release mortality rates which were of greatest concern as they should have been. To be honest Commissioners the rates used by the state were simply in the words of a WDF&W Bio, SWAG. SWAG is term used meaning Scientific Wild Ass Guess. In fact in my Public Document Request I was able to verify that agency staff did not even know where the previously utilized 45% mortality on commercial Chinook releases came from.

• The harvest model did not reflect reality in any way as to actual harvest impacts, in particular the Recreation C&R or commercial selective fishing. Rather than fill a page with verbiage the actual impacts of the state fisheries modeled vastly understated the state share of the impacts. Add to the mix that WDF&W's relationship Confederation of Chehalis Tribes has deteriorated to the point that they no longer even report their catch which as a Non Treaty tribe is part on the state allocation, which is a issue within itself. One could attempt go back and year by year attempt to apply an appropriate harvest impact of the state fisheries to get the correct impacts but I am not sure that is even possible. What I am sure of is in the record of historical harvest the QIN numbers are reasonably accurate and the states harvest impacts are so understated that it places them close to being totally inaccurate.

• The Tacoma City Light Wynoochee Mitigation has not been accomplished for over twenty years. To move the process forward the local community working with the WDF&W Science Division under Jim Scott developed a proposal that was supposed to be presented by Fish Program to the QIN for review, comment, and input. It did not happen despite repeated attempts by citizens to make it so. In fact under Ron Warren Region 6 staff substantially altered the plan around 2010 without the public or the QIN being aware of it. I have attached both Mr. Warrens letter and QIN manager Ed Johnstone's response.

In closing again I urge the Commission to chart a new course and meet with the QIN leadership. Have the conversation that is so desperately needed. Look at the issues from QIN eyes and ask the QIN look through your eyes to. Listen to each other and find where common ground exist as well as where deep disagreements reside. If left to staff of both the QIN or WDF&W this thing is not going to go away but only continue to become more dire.

Sincerely,

XXXX XXXXXXXX

CC: Director Unsworth
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#928416 - 04/29/15 10:19 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope


So now on to how did the Willapa NOF Adviser meeting go? Ok I think as long as one did & does not expect any definitive answers on what the 2015 seasons will look like. All the Advisers participated and outside the usual posturing provided a reasonable discussion. So high preverbal highs and lows.

THE MODEL: As one who is known to whack the heck out of staff when they mess up this is impressive. Staff pulled together and worked their collective butts off and you know what, they succeeded. The new Willapa model works and is reasonable to use once one is familiar with it. Additionally when issues such as the Rec Naselle catch appeared not to be correct rather than get defensive staff tore into the data proofed / fixed it. Kudos to staff they did it right.

COMMERCIAL SEASON: Several model runs with different seasons were presented. Ranging from complete tangle net to mix and match the results were pretty much all over the board as the 14% limiter on natural Chinook resulted in conservation driven outcomes. Tangle Chinook with release Chum in Coho season had the highest ex-vessel value ( dollar value of catch sold ) of over $900,000. While alternate model runs utilizing just release on Chinook came in at $500,00 to $600,000 ex-vessel value.

That said to say the commercials were opposed to tangle nets would be a understatement. It was bluntly pointed out if the agency and commercial fisher CHOOSE to not fish with tangle net alternate gear resulting in reduced harvest then do not bitch and wail when you have rather large hatchery surpluses. This one is interesting.

The issue of Steelhead be incidentally harvested in November was brought forward but data and observer reports said not much if any impact. Did not seem to make some folks happy but it is what it is.

RECREATIONAL SEASON: The modeled T & U fisheries looked OK with no nets to mid September in most of the model run presented. So that went OK. Now inriver was a bit different with a real dust up over the Nemah. A couple of property owners do not want it opened to Recs anymore than present. Others very strongly went the other way and this resulted in one of the few really pointed exchanges with staff. I think the following from a e mail pretty much capturing this bit. So now one Adviser is going to reach out to other property owners to seek out access for Recs.


1. If the the Piersons or anyone can dictate the closure of the entire upper section of the North Nemah for closure because they are concerned with the potential for trespassers on their private property - I can only assume that you will allow me to close down the entire lower section of the North Nemah when I get fed up with actual trespassers on my much larger section of the river regardless of who wants to keep it fishable!
2. I'm feeling this would smack of discrimination in the worst possible way if you failed to honor my request immediately if and when I chose to exercise this option.
3. By restricting the fishing opportunities to the lower part of the river you are placing the entire burden of access to the Williams, Wiss, Fleet and Crockford Families. Oh yes and the WDFW at the mouth of the river who refused to comply with signage.

3. Just checking to clarify the this issue?

Additionally below are the current proposed inriver seasons. Keep in mind this IS NOT final but a work in progress.

Enhancements to Recreational Salmon Fisheries in Willapa Bay for 2015

• 4 Adult bag limit in Marine Area 2.1 and freshwater areas. All areas release unmarked Chinook
• 2-Pole endorsement allowed in Willapa River and Naselle River Hwy 4 Bridge upstream to hatchery
• Willapa River
o Open from Sept 15 instead of Oct. 1 from Hwy 6 to Forks Creek
o Open Fork Creek upstream to Hwy 6 Bridge downstream from the town of Lebam
• North River
o Open through Jan. 31 instead of Dec. 31
• Nemah River
o Open from hatchery intake upstream to Hancock Bridge
• Palix River
o Open through Jan. 31 instead of Nov. 30
• Naselle River
o Open Hwy 4 Bridge upstream to the upstream entrance of the Naselle hatchery attraction channel
• Bear River
o Open through Jan. 31 instead of Nov. 30

So I have the revised Willapa harvest model if anyone wants it and Thursday is the public Willapa NOF meeting.

• Tuesday April 21st, WB advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
• Thursday April 23rd, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm
• Tuesday April 28th, WB Advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
• Thursday April 30th, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#928439 - 04/29/15 03:23 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
RB3 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 1335
Has the director ever replied to your emails or is it usually filtered through channels?

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#928450 - 04/29/15 04:10 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: RB3]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4398
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Yes usually you get a response but the responses are written at the local level, reviewed and changed as it works through staff to the Director or Commission. Local staff is a bit busy at the minute with NOF so things will drag.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#928543 - 04/29/15 09:59 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606
Couple of excellent talking points that are NOT resonating with the commerce sector:


"All of us should explore ways to commercially harvest and while doing so, reduce the fleet's impacts on the limiting natural spawning stocks. The failure to seek out alternatives to the historical fishing tactics used in Willapa Bay creates a far greater risk to the future of the commercial sector than any enhancement to the recreational season.

That raises a question. If not tangle nets, what suggestions do the experienced fishers within the commercial sector have to reduce historical gillnet impacts on natural spawning stocks? "
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#928571 - 04/30/15 06:45 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 917
Loc: tacoma
Fish wheels and weirs worked fine 100 years ago. Both allow 100% sorting of wild from hatchery fish. Not that gillnetters would ever suggest it though.

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#928573 - 04/30/15 08:02 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Takes away from the "rugged individual" American model of success. As an individual gill netter, I can make more money by being the best/smartest netter. If we do a trap, it is fixed and I have to share.

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#928574 - 04/30/15 08:15 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3310
For decades, they've lived by the gillnet. It's only natural they should die by the same....

Today, commercial fishing (not to be confused with processing and distribution, which are highly profitable) is a marginally profitable enterprise. I'm sure most commercials would gladly pursue any opportunity to harvest more of the target species were the gear adaptations associated with changing their methods not such a huge disincentive. It's probably legitimate to argue, considering the profit potential against the cost of switching gear, that switching gear is effectively cost prohibitive. I think this explains, almost entirely, why the commercials refuse to entertain the discussion. I sympathize with that, but no amount of sympathy will change the fact that gillnets are fast becoming a non-sustainable harvest method. If their tradition is to carry forward past the next few years, they will need to adapt.

One would think there would be a price point at which consumers would stop buying commercial fish, but I think we're finding that not to be the case. Consider, for example, the price per pound a sushi grade bluefin tuna commands, or recall the price per pound on spring Chinook in a low return year. No matter how outrageous the cost, people come out of the woodwork to pay it every time. Indeed, as a species becomes more scarce, the fugged-up nature of human culture makes that species a delicacy and a symbol of high social status.

Certainly, people won't be willing to pay those prices for Coho, but what's the breaking point there? I'm sure we haven't reached it. I guess my point is that if food fish are becoming scarce, and, as a result, commercially harvesting them is carrying an increasing cost/fish, the market price should reflect those circumstances. Don't want to pay sushi prices for a salmon fillet? Go sport fishing and catch your own (understanding that it will still probably cost you more per pound, but at least you'll have fun in the process).

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