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#981038 - 10/29/17 04:30 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4454
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If it involves challenging the Tribes the State will have no part in it. A third party might try a suit.

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#981046 - 10/29/17 07:44 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 539
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
To be clear, WDFW Director Unsworth asked for a decision in 2015, then backed off for some unknown reason. They sure won't tell me what it is, let alone return an email request.
I intend to file FOIA tomorrow, and maybe every day after that too (anyone want to jon me?) as I'm outta patience after 15 years of waiting.
I do not have this WDFW backdown in writing or any objective for continuing to negotiate, but the Corps has recently said they will act if the WDFW asks them to decide on DE MINIMUS tribal objections and delays

As far as I know, WDFW has stopped working on this, has not asked for a decision, has not posted any updates in the last 8 months, and won't reply to email or calls.

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#981048 - 10/29/17 08:19 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 539
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
By the way, a link to this thread has been sent to WDFW Unsworth and Ron Warren, and to the Corps. Only the Corps has responded.

I've patiently worked on this since 2002, and for the last few years, have watched as the tribes indicate resolution is near, only to watch the timelines for the permit and installation expies, and go into yet another year.

I've been patient to the point of stupidity. I have not rung phones off the hook, or been a nuisance, but I I foresee buying bulk ink cartridges for the amount of FOIA requests I'm going to generate. I'm done being patient and polite, as I've proven this will not even generate an 45 second email or 3 minute phone response from WDFW.





Edited by ned (10/31/17 03:49 PM)

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#981121 - 10/31/17 01:50 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Bay wolf Online   content
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 560
Loc: Graham, WA
A copy of this link has also been sent to Senator Pearson and Congresswoman Liz Pike.

Ned, I would encourage you to contact both Senator Pearson’s office and Congresswoman Pike’s and let them know what’s going on with this issue. They need the citizens to bring these kind of issues to their attention.


Edited by Bay wolf (10/31/17 01:54 PM)
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#981125 - 10/31/17 03:48 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 539
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
Kitsap County political landscape:

I have called our District 1 Kitsap County Commissioner Rob Gelder, and his office directed me elsewhere, saying they did not see any way they could assist and this was not a county issue (what?).

I called Senator Christine Rolfes office, and they said ,"I am unable to influence state or federal permitting decisions, ... We have been trying to facilitate a positive outcome for this project for quite some time."
Update: Trying to facilitate for 16 years now...

I called Congressman Derek Kilmers office, and they responded that the tribes felt they were losing too much ground on their rights to harvest. They did not acknowledge my point of view, but thoroughly pointed out the tribal rights (which did not apply to our conversation topics)...I thought they were MY representative, not tribal delegates. (Translate: They do not want to participate, so you're on your on.)

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#981579 - 11/13/17 07:17 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 539
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
Here Is the latest development: The RCO money, approved and available to install the ramp for the last several years, was about to expire. If it did, it would be lost, so justifiably, the WDFW returned it so it could be used for other projects. The money will take 2 years to recover, minimum.

The WDFW has continued to negotiate with the Suquamish tribe, and has repeated asked them WHAT they want in compensation for hypothetical damage to their nets (even though they cannot net in Area 9 where the ramp is). The tribe refuses to provide any information over the last 12 months, even after WDFW extended response deadlines 3 times to fit the 2016 agenda, the tribe still will not provide a response. At all. Nothing.

Meanwhile, Jerry Gregory is the contact for Point No Point ramp business at the Corps of Engineers for Colonel Buck, in command of the Seattle Army Corps HQ. Over the past several (4-6 ) years, he (Jerry) has assured me the permit would be processed and he did not see any obstacles to approval. This positive outlook seemed firm, given the WDFW, and NOAA, and National Marine Fisheries Service, and Kitsap County, and Ecology have all approved the ramp, and addressed all the ESA, fisheries, and mitigation issues brought by the Suquamish Tribe. ALL OF THEM!

The Corps was asked by WDFW Director James Unsworth to approve the ramp permit in 2015. The Corps has not responded. http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2015/12/dec1115_08_usarce.pdf

Shortly after this letter, I was told by the Corps they had an internal meeting of legal counsel to discuss the ramp permit. I asked for access, and was denied. I asked for information on that meeting, and was denied. I further asked for a legal reason the Corps was not performing their duty, and received no response.

I hereby apologize to the WDFW for my earlier post pointing the finger at them (though it served its purpose), but that was based on information I received from the Corp. So now, I direct my questions to the Corps:

WHY are you NOT representing the people of the government that you work for?

Why did your legal team meet behind closed doors, and not share the results with WDFW or anyone else about this project?

What is the legal basis for your actions of not approving the ramp permit?

Who is stopping Jerry Gregory from finishing a file that has been on his desk for years, and why has Col. Buck not recognized all the WDFW/NOAA/County/Fisheries/Ecology work, and instead, been discussing undisclosed issues behind closed doors?

How can anyone know what their stance is, or what to address, or what their issue is without disclosure? How do we proceed?

Back to my original post: Why is the USACE office not performing?


Edited by ned (11/13/17 08:12 PM)

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#981580 - 11/13/17 07:51 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Bay wolf Online   content
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 560
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: ned
Here Is the latest development: The RCO money, approved and available to install the ramp for the last several years, was about to expire. If it did, it would be lost, so justifiably, the WDFW returned it so it could be used for other projects. The money will take 2 years to recover, minimum.

The WDFW has continued to negotiate with the Suquamish tribe, and has repeated asked them WHAT they want in compensation for hypothetical damage to their nets (even though they cannot net in Area 9 where the ramp is). The tribe refuses to provide any information over the last 12 months, even after WDFW extended response deadlines 3 times to fit the 2016 agenda, the tribe still will not provide a response. At all. Nothing.

Meanwhile, Jerry Gregory is the contact for Point No Point ramp business at the Corps of Engineers for Colonel Buck, in command of the Seattle Army Corps HQ. Over the past several (4-6 ) years, he (Jerry) has assured me the permit would be processed and he did not see any obstacles to approval. This positive outlook seemed firm, given the WDFW, and NOAA, and National Marine Fisheries Service, and Kitsap County have all approved the ramp, and addressed all the ESA, fisheries, and mitigation issues brought by the Suquamish Tribe. ALL OF THEM!

The Corps was asked by WDFW Director James Unsworth to approve the ramp permit in 2015. The Corps has not responded. http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2015/12/dec1115_08_usarce.pdf

Shortly after this letter, I was told by the Corps they had an internal meeting of legal counsel to discuss the ramp permit. I asked for access, and was denied. I asked for information on that meeting, and was denied. I further asked for a legal reason the Corps was not performing their duty, and received no response.

I hereby apologize to the WDFW for my earlier post pointing the finger at them (though it served its purpose), but that was based on information I received from the Corp. So now, I direct my questions to the Corps:

WHY are you NOT representing the people of the government that you work for?

Why did your legal team meet behind closed doors, and not share the results with WDFW or anyone else about this project?

What is the legal basis for your actions of not approving the ramp permit?

Who is stopping Jerry Gregory from finishing a file that has been on hs desk for years, and why has Col. Buck not recognized all the WDFW/NOAA/County/Fisheries work, and instead, been discussing undisclosed issues behind closed doors?

How can anyone know what their stance is, or what to address, or what their issue is without disclosure? How do we proceed?

Back to my original post: Why is the USACE office not performing?


Ned, I salute you for your perseverance and tenacity in digging into this. I'm sure you are viewed as a pit bull to these guys, and I'm sure they are hoping you will just go away....I know you won't!

Secret meetings, prohibiting public oversight and silence to a citizens request for information...this is what our democracy has become!
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#981585 - 11/13/17 11:04 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Larry B Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2242
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Too bad Ned didn't have one of those little spy flies on their conference room wall. I am sure it would have been very illuminating to say the least. That said, any meeting where the decision makers are discussing issues with their legal counsel is privileged - that is, not open to the public. As frustrating as that can seem I do understand.

But what I do not understand is the failure of the Corps to simply issue the permit considering the absence of any meaningful information from the objecting tribe(s) or to hold a public meeting to explain the Corps' lack of positive action on behalf of the citizens of the U.S. keeping in mind that when the treaty was signed by the Federal representatives it was on behalf of its citizens which did not include the tribes and their citizens.

As I have opined previously this has been nothing short of a shake down (extortion) by the tribe(s) facilitated by the Corps and, frankly, purposely ignored by our own Federal legislators.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#981614 - 11/14/17 07:13 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Bay wolf Online   content
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 560
Loc: Graham, WA
Just heard the money expired and was sent back. Sounds like the State has admitted defeat and will no longer pursue the ramp.
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#981615 - 11/14/17 08:28 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 539
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10

Not true. Stay tuned...but don't hold your breath.

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#981617 - 11/14/17 09:58 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Bay wolf Online   content
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 560
Loc: Graham, WA
Stay on em Ned!!! We’ll wait for your update!
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#981619 - 11/14/17 11:45 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Larry B Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2242
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
It is my recollection that the actual site development monies came from an economic stimulus pot. One of the big issues several years ago (summer 2015) was whether that money was going away. At that time we were told it had been extended.

If that money has actually expired or is otherwise no longer available there is a bright side in that the Legislature has stopped raiding the RCO account. No, they haven't replaced the millions they stole out of that dedicated account but at least they have stopped stealing from it meaning RCO money should be available - the RCO folks simply have to put PNP at the head of their list of projects without going through the bureaucratic application process.

Hello RCO - are you on board??
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#982380 - 12/10/17 10:17 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 539
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
I'm still at it...with a lot of others too!

Update: Instead of requesting the Corps review and decide on the permit as the legal process requires, the wdfw decided the timeline on rco funds was going to expire and returned the funds. I think they were approved 5 years ago.

Wdfw SHOULD HAVE submitted to the corps 6 months ago, and if the corps denied the permit, THEN returned the funds. Instead, wdfw opted to delay and surrender without trying for approval.

So, that said, I've been told director unsworth will meet with his PNP ramp team tomorrow , Dec 11, to focus on a plan and get news on the latest info. Wdfw salmon guy Ron Warren has been the lead guy on this for the last couple years. Guess what: Ron is out on vacation until Nov 18.

So, a meeting that should have happened 4-6 months ago to align with funding timelines, was delayed due to lack of fundamental planning, then was scheduled for a time when the lead wdfw guy will not be attending.

And as we enter our 16th year on this project for REPLACING a one-lane ramp for public access, they wonder why I am short on patience.





Edited by ned (12/15/17 06:12 PM)

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#982381 - 12/10/17 10:40 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4454
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
1. Are the Tribes happy?
Yes
2. Then it's no problem.

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#982385 - 12/10/17 11:43 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Bay wolf Online   content
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 560
Loc: Graham, WA
The continued growing pile of issues that Director Unsworth has failed as a leader to get a handle on, may be more than he can weather. We had such great hopes for this boy when he first came in, and actually fought for us during "Cohogate" He has since collapsed and we are immeasurable worse off now than ever before. What we need to be very aware that IF the Director is let go, WE NEED to vet his replacement and insure he does not agree that Sportsmen are second class citizens!
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#982388 - 12/10/17 01:40 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4454
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The only way for sportsmen and women to get recognized is to stop supporting the department. If they don't sell licenses, they essentially die. So long as they keep selling then we are telling them that they are doing a job worth supporting.

The Leg won't act, unless there are enough campaign donations to counteract Tribal and Commercial. Same with the Gov.

We, collectively, hold the power....

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#982389 - 12/10/17 02:45 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: Carcassman]
bob r Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 261
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The only way for sportsmen and women to get recognized is to stop supporting the department. If they don't sell licenses, they essentially die. So long as they keep selling then we are telling them that they are doing a job worth supporting.

The Leg won't act, unless there are enough campaign donations to counteract Tribal and Commercial. Same with the Gov.

We, collectively, hold the power....


We will buy licenses, if we wait 'till boycotting fishing in our home state we'll be dead before we see any change. We'll put intime we could be fishing to go to any public forum where our concerns are heard but we're certainly not going to give up fishing on the hopes that some hare-brained boycott will actually succeed. Bob and Melanie

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#982390 - 12/10/17 02:52 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4454
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
And by going fishing in WA you are supporting the way they manage. Fish and Wildlife is a pay as you go system. So long as the money is coming in, the feedback is positive.

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#982391 - 12/10/17 05:05 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: Carcassman]
bob r Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 261
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
And by going fishing in WA you are supporting the way they manage. Fish and Wildlife is a pay as you go system. So long as the money is coming in, the feedback is positive.

No, they know me well enough from PUBLIC MEETINGS to know that at least MY feedback isn't positive. What I won't do is cut off my nose to spite my face by not buying a license while the amount of people that ARE willing to cut off their own noses is such a small % as to be immeasurable. It would be a lot easier to get significant numbers of people to show up and force them to hold meetings in a larger forum and last all day due to meaningful public input. You know, like I heard yesterday. A good start, for sure. Bob R

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#982398 - 12/11/17 07:47 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4454
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I hope you're right, Bob, that they are listening and will act as the stakeholders and law demand. I just doubt they will. There are bigger stakeholders telling them what to do. And they listen to them.

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