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#981996 - 11/28/17 11:00 PM Gill Nets- Class Speech
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
I'm writing an advocacy speech in my public speaking class at UW and my topic is to ban gill-nets in Washington state. The current problems with gill-nets are that they are not a sustainable means of fishing in the fact that they are not selective in their harvest of fish. However, what I'm not aware of is who is responsible for their establishment in our fisheries and what can be done to get them removed.

From what I understand, they are currently used by commercial fishermen as well as the tribes. I have ZERO PROBLEM with either as to the fish they are harvesting, however I feel as though a more selective method would do wonders for native and endangered fish populations such as our beloved steelhead.

Currently I'm looking to find information as to who is to "blame" (where it stems from) for gill nets usage in our fisheries, data of fish mortality and by catch rates, and the steps individuals would need to take in order to get them banned in both tribal and commercial sectors.

While I understand this in the end may prove difficult, I'd ask what would need to be done (in theory) if everything went perfectly for them to be banned. I have done a bit of research on my own but that only goes so far compared to the years of experience I know people have with this topic.

I appreciate any feedback as its all helpful and would like to repreat that this is only for a class project. Thanks!

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#982006 - 11/29/17 06:59 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Well, the Indians were using gillnets before the Europeans arrived. The Europeans were using them, too. It is probably a rather ancient technology.

The non-Indian fishery is managed by the State of Washington through WDFW (at least in theory, many here believe otherwise). The citizens of the State, through the Legislature or Initiative, could ban their use by that segment.

Tribal fisheries are managed by each individual tribe. They are not subject the State law regarding fishing.

One difference in gillnets is that, in the fast, the NI nets could not be monofilament; they had to be multi-stranded which made them somewhat more visible. Indian nets had no such restriction.

The most destructive fisheries to the long term survival of Pacific salmon and steelhead are the marine mixed stock, primarily hook and line.

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#982007 - 11/29/17 07:44 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
When discussing gillnet fisheries, it's important to distinguish between impacts on salmon and steelhead, because the two are quite different, in terms of both who conducts the fisheries and the overall impact those fisheries create.

Adding on to what Carcassman said, the only gillnet fisheries our government can outlaw are the non-tribal ones, and they fish for strictly salmon. I could easily stand to see those go away, but it would represent very little reduction in gillnet harvest overall (except in Willapa Bay, where I think all your concerns are valid). As Carcassman said, the vast majority of salmon are harvested in open ocean, mixed stock, hook and line fisheries (both commercial and recreational).

As regards steelhead, the decision to stop gillnetting them lies solely with each of the treaty tribes, so an audience at UW might not be the most effective forum for that discussion. I do believe, considering that there are no non-tribal, commercial fisheries targeting steelhead, yet the numbers continue to decline, even in places where habitat has been well-preserved or enhanced, that tribal gillnet fisheries have played and continue to play a larger role in limiting steelhead abundance versus salmon. I'm probably wrong. As you're no doubt learning as you research this topic, it's extremely complicated, and clear answers are hard to come by.

Good luck!

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#982009 - 11/29/17 08:01 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The NI fleet does, or used to, get lots of Columbia River steelhead in the springer season. I recall discussions with one gill netter who brought back, and distributed to the hungry, 20 fish that arrived in the boat dead. Over 400 pounds. He threw the live ones back but would not "waste" an already dead one.

On the issue of steelhead, the gillnets hammer them two ways. Even if all directed netting was outlawed, they would be incidentally taken in coho and chum fisheries. Even worse, to my mind, is that in some springer fisheries the kelts are caught. They are simply wasted as being unsuitable for sale.

As I get deeper into steelhead biology (which is odd because that is actually where the circus of a career began 40+ years ago) they are so much more complex than salmon. We treat them like salmon. I think that an anadromous adult is actually a response freshwater conditions. They don't exist as a wholly independent "stock". The residents and anadromous are not only the same but need each other for maximum population diversity.

When the Cedar had all those "resident" rainbow and few anadromous it was, I believe, more a case of being resident was a better way to reach reproductive age than being anadromous. If conditions change, they'll switch.

For whatever reason, we are trying to force rainbows to be anadromous and maybe they are smarter than us and know that path is not currently wise.

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#982011 - 11/29/17 08:40 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
So in order for everyone to stop gillnetting, the decision in ultimately up to the treaty tribes? And nothing can be done to influence that? I heard a few years ago that the Colville Indians were practicing using purse-seine nets instead of gill nets. I thought that was really cool to see and could see huge benefits if that were the fishing method used on all our rivers.

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#982014 - 11/29/17 08:53 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Denham,

The Colvilles are not a treaty tribe and do not have treaty fishing rights. They have fishing rights on their reservation. So their approach to fish management is different than that of most of the treaty fishing tribes.

As for modifying treaty fishing rights, that is the pervue of Congress. That was tried in the early 1980s and flopped miserably. On the national level, the public is highly supportive of tribal rights.

Sg

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#982017 - 11/29/17 09:04 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Denham,

First, I suggest that you ask some fishery managers from the state, tribes, and feds to get a broader perspective on this.

Then, I would argue that any distinction on fishing gear type is almost purely a political/econo-political discussion and not a biologically-based discussion. In other words, a dead fish is a dead fish.

Gillnets are the current enemy du jour....

Back in the 1920 and 30, when the commercial scale, boat-based gill net industry was really firing up, due to the rise of the small marine engine tech, traps and wheels were the enemy - so much so, that the gill net lobby got that gear banned in WA and OR because of its efficieant and indiscriminate harvest! (Sound familiar?)

The real issue has and will always be the rate at which the fish are killed, not how they are killed. remember, how they are killed is not a biological rational for one gear over another. The "image" problem that gill nets have is they are supremely effective at what they do, which puts dead fish in the boat, which can be seen and counted, unlike the released recreational and commercial troll by-catch, which operates on the more "invisible" principle of assumed released mortality, albeit with some good to questionable estimates for this mortality. Both types of gear have estimates, used in management, for fish that disappear from the gears - hooked and never landed and net dropout.

I'll leave it to the folks here to tell you were I'm wrong.

Good luck,

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#982025 - 11/29/17 10:34 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The big advantage of GN is that it is generally directed at a known stock of adults in a situation where it should be possible to have an accurate idea of the run size.

The biggest disadvantage is that it is obvious and in your face. Also, while it is extremely size selective it will take anything of that size. I have seen mesh size restrictions used very efficiently to protect one species while harvesting another.

The method(s) that are the least supportable biologically and energetically (energy used to catch them) are the marine mixed stock fisheries.

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#982027 - 11/29/17 10:45 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Carcassman]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
I recall discussions with one gill netter who brought back, and distributed to the hungry, 20 fish that arrived in the boat dead. Over 400 pounds.


Sounds like this gill netter was from Oregon... or at least his scale was. wink


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#982028 - 11/29/17 10:52 AM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Nope. Spring Chinook fishing, mesh to take fish of that size. Steelhead were the same size.

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#982033 - 11/29/17 12:33 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
Well if the tribes cannot be influenced by any sort of action then it seems pointless to eliminate commercial gill nets which is only half the problem. If there's no solution to solve the problem then I'll just have to bag the idea and move on to something else!

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#982036 - 11/29/17 01:45 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: Denham
Well if the tribes cannot be influenced by any sort of action then it seems pointless to eliminate commercial gill nets which is only half the problem. If there's no solution to solve the problem then I'll just have to bag the idea and move on to something else!


May I suggest open ocean, mixed stock fisheries as a topic? There's all kinds of injustice to focus on there, and you won't be labeled a racist for speaking up (you might if you stick with the gillnet thing).

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#982037 - 11/29/17 01:54 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Or take the opposite approach and report on the Supreme Court's affirmation of the Boldt decision and their inclusion of an economic development off-set to tribal fishing rights. IF a tribe's economic status were on a par with their surrounding community might they lose their commercial treaty fishing rights (and, thereby, substantially reduce their non-selective gill net harvest)? Gutsy issue to take up at any university but guaranteed to garner some attention.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#982040 - 11/29/17 02:42 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Larry B]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Or take the opposite approach and report on the Supreme Court's affirmation of the Boldt decision and their inclusion of an economic development off-set to tribal fishing rights. IF a tribe's economic status were on a par with their surrounding community might they lose their commercial treaty fishing rights (and, thereby, substantially reduce their non-selective gill net harvest)? Gutsy issue to take up at any university but guaranteed to garner some attention.


trigger warning! this may upset Larry B smile

If you're referring to the "moderate living" language in the decision, it refers to a living made from fishing, and not anything else. They can have all the casino money in the world but if their fishermen can't make a living fishing, we are not fulfilling the treaty.

Think of it like this, you still want to fish, even though the non-Indian economy is enormous and wide spread and has been mostly responsible for the condition the fisheries are in, correct? Why should you get to fish at all?

Now, when you answer that question, remember you don't have a federal treaty-reserved right to fish.




Edited by JustBecause (11/29/17 02:45 PM)

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#982041 - 11/29/17 02:54 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: JustBecause]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: JustBecause
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Or take the opposite approach and report on the Supreme Court's affirmation of the Boldt decision and their inclusion of an economic development off-set to tribal fishing rights. IF a tribe's economic status were on a par with their surrounding community might they lose their commercial treaty fishing rights (and, thereby, substantially reduce their non-selective gill net harvest)? Gutsy issue to take up at any university but guaranteed to garner some attention.


trigger warning! this may upset Larry B smile

If you're referring to the "moderate living" language in the decision, it refers to a living made from fishing, and not anything else. They can have all the casino money in the world but if their fishermen can't make a living fishing, we are not fulfilling the treaty.

Think of it like this, you still want to fish, even though the non-Indian economy is enormous and wide spread and has been mostly responsible for the condition the fisheries are in, correct? Why should you get to fish at all?

Now, when you answer that question, remember you don't have a federal treaty-reserved right to fish.


If that is factual; that is, it is limited to fishing generated income.

Clearly that is not my understanding but if you have the cite please provide for my edification.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#982042 - 11/29/17 03:35 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The share, as set by the Supremes, was 50% or a moderate living, whichever is the lesser. The state was requested to litigate this in the 80s and refused. Some would say that they (the state) believed that the 80s catch levels did not reach a moderate living.

I agree with JustBecause; it is independent of other sources.

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#982043 - 11/29/17 03:38 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Larry B]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
I arrive there by deduction. See this US DOJ page for their summary.
https://www.justice.gov/enrd/us-v-washington

I would think that if alternate sources of income were part of the equation, it would say so, wouldn't it? Something like:

"Up to 50%, but no more than is necessary to provide Indians with a livelihood--that is to say a moderate living, inclusive of all other sources of potential contribution to their said livelihood"...

Again, I'm no lawyer, so take it as my opinion.

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#982044 - 11/29/17 03:39 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: JustBecause]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Btw, I don't think we are being much help to Denham frown

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#982045 - 11/29/17 04:37 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Denham,

Excellent topic and very complex both biologically and politically. After a 30 year career in fisheries enforcement, not biology, I have no love for gillnets. They are an efficient means of catching fish, but they are pretty much size specific, not specie specific. Under most conditions they catch anything that happens to contact them including sea birds, ducks, crab, shrimp, occasionally smaller fish species and are very wasteful under most applications. Carcassman has covered a lot of what you want to know, and is very knowledgeable. One of my main issues with gillnets is that they snag on under water obstructions, then are cut loose or ripped off, or have drifted away as in the case of some rivers. These "Ghost Nets" then continue to fish and since monofilament has an extremely long life, these ghost nets do considerable evironmental damage for years. Check the Northwest Straits Commission website for good data. You'll be amazed at the amount of destruction that they have done.
The alternative to gillnets would be seines, beach or purse, fish traps or just bidding on hatchery salmon when they get back to the hatchery which is rife with problems of quality, etc. The gillnetters have a very powerful lobby, so that is an obstacle. Another is that they are good guys.

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#982046 - 11/29/17 05:29 PM Re: Gill Nets- Class Speech [Re: Denham]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
There has been lots of useful information presented and appreciate that. The info about the ghost nets is very relevant and persuasive which would help my argument greatly. However, what I'm missing is a solution. A solution that would ultimately ban gill nets and have them replaced by alternative, more sustainable fishing methods. Something that citizens could do in order for an action to take place. Any ideas that could be suggested even if they are only theoretical would be great.


Edited by Denham (11/29/17 05:58 PM)

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