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#573484 - 01/18/10 12:53 AM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: The Catcherman]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2896
Having read a few of Keta's other posts, I tend to believe this was rather heavy sarcasm.

Lowering escapements to keep a fishery open may have made sense when there were 20-30,000 fish returning to these systems, but I don't think anyone would try to argue that it does when 5,000 is the starting point.

When I first learned that escapement goals were as low as they have been for some time now, I recall wondering how any of us ever catches a fish. Think about how much needs to fall in line to catch one fish these days, let alone the huge numbers that were the rule 40-50 years ago. It makes me really impressed with those 10 percenters out there who consistently catch fish at today's escapement levels. Those guys are good.

Anyway, I'm starting to pull a 180 on this thread. I started out in full doom and gloom mode, deeply saddened at the prospect of the Skagit and Sauk closing. I don't fish those rivers, but I have always wanted to; sort of a rite of passage for a steelhead angler in Washington.

More and more, I am thinking, despite the likely fallout from this event, that this is a good thing. I am looking forward to my trip to the OP in March, but I wouldn't be too upset if they decided to close those rivers in February as well. I have said before that I would rather see fishing stopped than see the fish continue to fade away, and I will stand by that remark. Hopefully, these actions will give us some strong, demonstrative arguments to use in future negotiations with the tribes to convince them to act in kind. If we truly want to turn this around, we ALL need to change our ways, and quickly.

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#573578 - 01/18/10 03:13 PM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: CraigO]
Double Haul Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 1558
Loc: Wherever I can swing for wild ...
Another point I think worth pondering, well actually two:

1. This should not be a surprise since this is not the first time, remember 2001

2. C&R fisheries have been allowed to occur on the S/S at 80% of estimated escapement levels over a number of years since, I believe the last closure in 2001. Smalma my correct me if I am wrong. In my opinion C&R fisheries should not be allowed to occur usless the estimation is at !00% or greater than the escapement level on any system.
_________________________
Decisions and changes seldom occur by posting on Internet bulletin boards.

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#573708 - 01/19/10 12:53 AM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: Double Haul]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1089
Yes,sarcasm it was. I've been watching this slow motion train wreck for years and when the escapement goals where lowered I was very skeptical that was the direction to go. It seems to me that if the carrying capacity is declining the thing to do would be raise the carrying capacity not reduce the escapement goal, but that's not the easy way and it would be bad for the economy so here we are.

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#573710 - 01/19/10 01:12 AM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: Keta]
skyrise Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 291
Loc: snohomish, wa
nothing will change untill the nets are out of the river for good.

you cant have a recovery with NETS in the river!!
end of story.
I hope all the folks over on the OP look at this get a clue.
cause its coming to your area next.
_________________________
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

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#573721 - 01/19/10 02:33 AM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: skyrise]
Leopardbow Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 173
Loc: Ferndale
I couldn't comment for the longest time, but after reading the entire thread I had to say at least a few things that stuck out. As much as it agonizes me that they are closed, like others, we all new it was coming.

I knew the closure was coming after the 2010-2012 rule change and last year's escapment numbers. This is conservation, and we need to embrace it; no matter how hard it is.

I am slightly disturbed at the number of hatchery fish still returning and the high potential of those fish strayhing and spawning with wild fish. I think this could have been postponed until at least the end of January.

Not much we can do to change the decision, now, but I know where I will continue to throw my support for changes in selective fisheries practice, the North of Falcon process and other policy management.

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#573736 - 01/19/10 09:37 AM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: Leopardbow]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25100
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Leopardbow
I am slightly disturbed at the number of hatchery fish still returning and the high potential of those fish strayhing and spawning with wild fish. I think this could have been postponed until at least the end of January.


The Sauk and Skagit Rivers don't close until Feb. 16th, so hopefully as many of the hatchery fish as possible can be cleared out...

Fish on...

Todd

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#573838 - 01/19/10 02:24 PM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: Todd]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2759
Loc: Marysville
Rich -
Clealry since 2001 steelhead management policies have changed. AS you know the State has a new steelhead policy that should address those issues and of course Puget Sound steelhead are now ESA listed.

Keta -
I sure that we all would like to see our river systems supporting higher carrying capacity. Unfortuantely that is very difficult to accomplish.

Such things as Carrying Capacity are determined by the biological prodcutivity of each of our river systems. Carry Capacity like MSY levels vary every year depending n the survival conditions (both freshwater and marine) that the returning adults experienced during their lives. Because of the extremely poor survival conditons that say Skagit steelhead are now experiencing the steelhead carrying capacity of the Skagit basin is much lower than it was in say 1985. Goals could be set at some hope for conditon (higher than current capacity) but all that would do is insure that runs sizes/escapements will consistently be below those goals. The only way those hoped for conditions can be met is for dramatic improvements in either the quality/quantity of the freshwater habitat (producing more smolts per spawner), or significant increases in smolt to adult survival, or some combination of the two.

At some point we have to come to grips with what we have done to our river systems and either live with those biological realities or work our rears off to change things.

Tight lines
Curt

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#573965 - 01/19/10 07:28 PM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: Todd]
Leopardbow Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 173
Loc: Ferndale
Originally Posted By: Todd
Originally Posted By: Leopardbow
I am slightly disturbed at the number of hatchery fish still returning and the high potential of those fish strayhing and spawning with wild fish. I think this could have been postponed until at least the end of January.


The Sauk and Skagit Rivers don't close until Feb. 16th, so hopefully as many of the hatchery fish as possible can be cleared out...

Fish on...

Todd


They are closed right now.

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#573967 - 01/19/10 07:33 PM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: Leopardbow]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4531
Loc: B'ham
Originally Posted By: Leopardbow
Originally Posted By: Todd
Originally Posted By: Leopardbow
I am slightly disturbed at the number of hatchery fish still returning and the high potential of those fish strayhing and spawning with wild fish. I think this could have been postponed until at least the end of January.


The Sauk and Skagit Rivers don't close until Feb. 16th, so hopefully as many of the hatchery fish as possible can be cleared out...

Fish on...

Todd


They are closed right now.


Really? Where did that get posted? I haven't fished it for a while but I know that people were fishing it last weekend.

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#574026 - 01/19/10 10:30 PM Re: Bad News Sauk & Skagit [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25100
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
They don't close 'til the 16th of February.

Fish on...

Todd

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